@ErrorsOnCoins said:
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on hyper inflated $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
It's obvious that at this point people are going to wonder why a coin that should have been sent into CAC by now has no sticker. Maybe dealers have the wrong idea about the purpose of CAC? Maybe the CAC sticker is there to help collectors , and dealers are feeling butthurt because it gets used against them once in a blue moon? .
Just to reiterate , dealers don't make the coins they just endlessly shuffle them around they are middlemen, and the best thing you can do with middlemen is get rid of most of them. Maybe if we cut the deadwood out of the dealer loop collectors could see prices go down . To me that would be a good thing , but then I'm just collecting things I like , not deluding myself that its an investment. I don't need and don't want higher prices .
Disclose the coins that get sent in and don't sticker , if that means a lot of marginal dealers wind up flipping burgers , so be it.
PNG dealers are already required to not make misrepresentations. So if CAC is important to you, ask the dealer and he'll be required to tell you the truth.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew what I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
Thanks for relating another bad experience. It seems to me that you may be one of the few folks posting on CU that has continuous bad luck. As a member of PNG, I sincerely hope things change for all of you in the future as your post has made me sad to learn of your experience. Now I'll take a short break for some chocolate so I feel better.
@Coinstartled said:
As PNG carries the torch of ethics and morality in the numismatic trade, the Moses like tablet of rules should probably require dealers to disclose when a coin fails at CAC. They certainly boast of the successes.
Your position quite frankly surprises me. From past posts you have made it clear you dont value CAC stickers. You, like some others, have stated you rely on your eyes and education. Why then would you want a rule that requires dealers to post such info regarding what CAC thinks?
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew what I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
Thanks for relating another bad experience. It seems to me that you may be one of the few folks posting on CU that has continuous bad luck. As a member of PNG, I sincerely hope things change for all of you in the future as your post has made me sad to learn of your experience. Now I'll take a short break for some chocolate so I feel better.
If you are indeed a PNG member, the better response would be "who is this character, we need to weed out this type of bad actor as they are damaging the reputation of our prestigious organization"
Truth is, PNG is another acronym on a website and a way to get a fee break from Ebay.
@Coinstartled said:
As PNG carries the torch of ethics and morality in the numismatic trade, the Moses like tablet of rules should probably require dealers to disclose when a coin fails at CAC. They certainly boast of the successes.
Your position quite frankly surprises me. From past posts you have made it clear you dont value CAC stickers. You, like some others, have stated you rely on your eyes and education. Why then would you want a rule that requires dealers to post such info regarding what CAC thinks?
I don't like Tesla either, but previous storm and hail damage should be disclosed upon resale.
@Coinstartled said:
As PNG carries the torch of ethics and morality in the numismatic trade, the Moses like tablet of rules should probably require dealers to disclose when a coin fails at CAC. They certainly boast of the successes.
Your position quite frankly surprises me. From past posts you have made it clear you dont value CAC stickers. You, like some others, have stated you rely on your eyes and education. Why then would you want a rule that requires dealers to post such info regarding what CAC thinks?
I don't like Tesla either, but previous storm and hail damage should be disclosed upon resale.
Because sometimes there is storm damage and someone tries to cover it up and it's not easy to see except from an expert's eye?
ALL "history" of what's been done to or with a coin should be confidential unless SPECIFICALLY authorized by the source of the coin TO THE DEALER!
I based my business on COMPLETE anonymity and confidence in the ...past... while informing all buyers that history begins now.
The ramifications and exposure to litigation for ANY reason is ....reason enough... to base everything on what happens ...NEXT... not before.
@gtstang said:
Why? Is the PCGS and NGC "opinions" no longer good enough in today's market?
Look at prices realized for an answer to your question
I don't have an issue at all with cac coins and even have two I would of purchased without the cac because I liked the coins.
The same thing can also be said about PCGS coins over NGC coins of prices realized in the same grade.
I actually agree with coinstartled :_ Well I agree 100% with that. PNG though promotes itself in a manner that suggests transparency regarding information and research on the coins sold by their dealer members.
A digital trail of CAC submissions is reasonable considering their adherence to honest disclosure._
The only problem, a PNG dealer buys a coin from a collector and he will not have access to that info probably (the submission to CAC could be 2-3 owners away by this time)
Very simple solution: always ASK if the person selling you the coin if they will send it in (usually you have to pay a little more). A no is a HUGE red flag. Any dealer worth their salt knows they can get more from a CAC coin today, so why wouldn't be. Best LIE I have ever heard: I don't trust CAC.
@specialist said:
I actually agree with coinstartled :_ Well I agree 100% with that. PNG though promotes itself in a manner that suggests transparency regarding information and research on the coins sold by their dealer members.
A digital trail of CAC submissions is reasonable considering their adherence to honest disclosure._
The only problem, a PNG dealer buys a coin from a collector and he will not have access to that info probably (the submission to CAC could be 2-3 owners away by this time)
Very simple solution: always ASK if the person selling you the coin if they will send it in (usually you have to pay a little more). A no is a HUGE red flag. Any dealer worth their salt knows they can get more from a CAC coin today, so why wouldn't be. Best LIE I have ever heard: I don't trust CAC.
In the interest of full transparency, do you have a financial interest in CAC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1 - if your buying a coin, ask if it has been to CAC. They can only tell you what they have done with it, not what happened before it was in their possession, and then you have to trust the answer.
2 - if you want CAC's opinion, do what Laura suggested, ask the dealer to send it in. That will tell all........
3 - requiring a PNG dealer, or anyone to disclose whether something has been to CAC - ridiculous.
4 - learn to pick your dealers then you can trust the coins they sell.
5 - learn to judge surfaces yourself and how to grade.
I am re-visiting this to see the direction of this question. Eagle eye made the most compelling comment about grading for yourself. Eagle eye rightly advocates taking accountability and I will add that blaming others for your own inability to develop skills that are important to be an informed numismatist to really appreciate or evaluate coins... Period. In order to make buying decisions, your knowledge is important and that knowledge cannot be passed off to a dealer, a TPG or anyone else. While it is terrific to work with dealers and have coins graded and snickered, collectors are the driver of their own collecting bus and need to understand grading ramifications, original patina and what are the attributes of quality and what is not.
Whether a dealer discloses whether a coin stickered or not is simply not an excuse for developing skills to make your own numismatic decision. And the time one complains about how they have been wronged for whatever reason could be better spent learning about what matters.
A very prominent member here wrote... And I am paraphrasing... "There is no Numismatic Santa Claus"... My response and experience dictates that is not always the case. Knowledge at several levels simply cannot be overlooked in the unpredictable numismatic journey.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew what I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
Thanks for relating another bad experience. It seems to me that you may be one of the few folks posting on CU that has continuous bad luck. As a member of PNG, I sincerely hope things change for all of you in the future as your post has made me sad to learn of your experience. Now I'll take a short break for some chocolate so I feel better.
If you are indeed a PNG member, the better response would be "who is this character, we need to weed out this type of bad actor as they are damaging the reputation of our prestigious organization"
Truth is, PNG is another acronym on a website and a way to get a fee break from Ebay.
Enjoy the nestles.
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
I regard many of your posts as a "cry for attention" and not based on actual experiences. That's why I was unhappy that this one may be true. Even a curmudgeon who hates people can show a tiny bit of empathy once a year. Today was my day.
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
Collectors should be very careful about condemning all coins without CAC stickers to the dustbin. First, it’s going to reduce the supply of “collectable” pieces to a much small number, which will drive up prices.
I know that what a lot of CAC folks want, but it also makes the hobby less attractive to new blood, which is something we sorely need. High prices for everything collectable will not help this hobby to grow and prosper. “Peaceful co-existence” between CAC and non-CAC material would be a much better scenario.
As for those who want their hand held for them whenever they make a purchase, you are part of the problem. You need to learn to grade non CAC material if you want to play the CAC certification game. That was the way it was when certification holders came on the scene. Dealers who made money, where the dealers who “made coins” into certified pieces.
Putting the “mark of Caine” on large number of coins, is going hurt the hobby. If you destroy the hobby, even the coins with your stickers on them won’t be worth what you think that should be worth because the new buyers won’t be there.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew what I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
Thanks for relating another bad experience. It seems to me that you may be one of the few folks posting on CU that has continuous bad luck. As a member of PNG, I sincerely hope things change for all of you in the future as your post has made me sad to learn of your experience. Now I'll take a short break for some chocolate so I feel better.
If you are indeed a PNG member, the better response would be "who is this character, we need to weed out this type of bad actor as they are damaging the reputation of our prestigious organization"
Truth is, PNG is another acronym on a website and a way to get a fee break from Ebay.
Enjoy the nestles.
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
I regard many of your posts as a "cry for attention" and not based on actual experiences. That's why I was unhappy that this one may be true. Even a curmudgeon who hates people can show a tiny bit of empathy once a year. Today was my day.
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner.
Seriously ? Why can't CAC publish a list of coins that didn't sticker.
I understand if coins are sent in then later upgraded or crossed over cracked out conserved blah blah blah etc. there will be gaps holes dead ends in the list but that happens with slabs too. All that fiddly nonsense affects slabs moreso , and yes the TPG's don't publish a list of failed coins but a sticker doesn't get pasted on a raw coin it goes on a slab that can be looked up so its not the same.
It can't be that CAC is hoping some fool will resubmit a coin more than once because they don't know it already made the trip. It can't be that , that is chicken feed.
It would hurt a lot of dealers business models, then they would cry.
Its actually true. A stack of tissues that reached to the moon would not be enough to dry the tears of coin dealers who would suddenly have to correctly represent a coins background. They wouldn't be able to spin some yarn about how that unstickered beauty in the rattler holder ( that had changed hands 32 times since it was shoehorned into its present plastic tomb) was a lock for an upgrade , and the deadwood would begin to pile up in their inventory at a relentless pace.
This hobby has survived gradeflation, bad coin docs, total crooks, and so much more. New people seem to have a better access to education about what and how to buy. The big money likes CAC and most now insist on it-they are not stupid. I can"t think of ANY legitimate dealer who would say the hobby is ruined by CAC and all the info out there. Newbies only runaway when they are faced with things like gradeflation, doctored coins, etc.
Would it be for the best is NEWBIES just go off and buy with no insurance only to find out they bought bad coins? Sorry, all the info possible about a coin helps.
I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this
@bronco2078 said:
Seriously ? Why can't CAC publish a list of coins that didn't sticker.
I understand if coins are sent in then later upgraded or crossed over cracked out conserved blah blah blah etc. there will be gaps holes dead ends in the list but that happens with slabs too. All that fiddly nonsense affects slabs moreso , and yes the TPG's don't publish a list of failed coins but a sticker doesn't get pasted on a raw coin it goes on a slab that can be looked up so its not the same.
It can't be that CAC is hoping some fool will resubmit a coin more than once because they don't know it already made the trip. It can't be that , that is chicken feed.
It would hurt a lot of dealers business models, then they would cry.
Its actually true. A stack of tissues that reached to the moon would not be enough to dry the tears of coin dealers who would suddenly have to correctly represent a coins background. They wouldn't be able to spin some yarn about how that unstickered beauty in the rattler holder ( that had changed hands 32 times since it was shoehorned into its present plastic tomb) was a lock for an upgrade , and the deadwood would begin to pile up in their inventory at a relentless pace.
Seriously? What would be the point of that besides attracting lawsuits and many other bad things. The OP's question was ridiculous to start with, I am amazed folks here took it seriously - think about the market and then you will know why the answer to OP's question is NO.
@No Headlights said:
I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this
It depends if there was a witness and they find the body
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@No Headlights said:
I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this
It depends if there was a witness and they find the body
m
Funny! I have never dealt with them. I wasn’t sure what was required of its members. Or if they have any actual punitive powers. Never really thought about it before.
Seriously? What would be the point of that besides attracting lawsuits and many other bad things. The OP's question was ridiculous to start with, I am amazed folks here took it seriously - think about the market and then you will know why the answer to OP's question is NO.
One point would be to put a lot of "excess" dealers out of business . As far as the market goes , who cares ? I'm a collector I want lower prices for the stuff I like while I'm alive . When I'm dead whoever winds up with my stuff can do the best they can with what they inherit and if they don't like it they can go pound sand.
I know a lot of you characters think higher prices are a good thing , so thats cute and all but dealers are in business to make money. Collectors are not in business and no they don't make any money. Ok maybe 5% do but most churn through a lot of coins and go broke slowly or sometimes quickly and along the way they lie to themselves about it.
So the missing dealers , those we can replace with vending machines in strategic locations . Put your chip card in , wait for it to beep or boop or whatever. Press the button that says 1881-s morgan select your grade and sticker type and crunch crunch a slab falls out the little hole and you are hero of the registry for a day.
Then the short attention span of the average coin collector kicks in so there's a hole up top where you put the slab you bought last week , it goes in and the machine offers you 50% of what you paid towards your next choice. You hit accept offer and buy the same coin one grade higher for twice as much.
Hmm does anyone know if the patent office is open on weekends?
I really don't know the answer to all of this, BUT does PNG require member dealers to:
Inform the buyer of any coins that fail to holder at one of the TPGs?
Inform the buyer that they submitted a coin 5 times to a TPG to get it into its current holder?
Inform the buyer that they have not submitted their raw coins?
Inform the buyer that the current raw coin was broken out of a holder?
Used acetone to clean a coin that previously had been stored in PVC.
Used MS70 on a coin.
If the answer to any of those questions is "no", then why are we picking on CAC? The only reason I would care if the coin had been to CAC [I assume this is a sight seen sale] is if I'm considering submitting it myself. Otherwise, I'm looking at the coin.
We are actually getting into a funny area of the market. It's similar to OGH. People often pay a premium for an OGH because they think it is sure to upgrade in the current market. People pay a premium for sealed proof sets on the off chance there is a DCAM in there. Is the idea here that someone would pay more for a CAC virgin coin on the off chance that it MIGHT CAC?
@TomB said:
Each coin could have a side panel similar to today's nutrition information on food packages that might state-
"Number of times dipped...
PVC removed with X solvent...
Previous grades through PCGS...
Previous grades through NGC...
Previous grades through ANACS...
Previous grades through "other"...
Previous CAC opinion...
Treated with the following color inducing agents..."
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner.
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner.
You don't need to be a rapist to report a rape.
A rather odd tangent. I am not sure that the dealer was violating any laws per se, just covenants of the PNG agreement.
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner.
You don't need to be a rapist to report a rape.
A rather odd tangent. I am not sure that the dealer was violating any laws per se, just covenants of the PNG agreement.
Not really a tangent. The point is that the victim is the one who reports the "crime" or ethical violation. If your plumber messes up your pipes, you don't ask another plumber to file the complaint with the BBB. If you feel that the dealer you did business with was acting unethically, you are the one who should report them to PNG.
Gradeflation continues. If I've got a 65 CAC that would cross over to a 66 - do I cross it into a non-CAC 66? Would CAC verification standards evolve as market grading standards evolve?
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Comments
They can require all they wish...LOL.
Being a PNG member is voluntary and not compulsory. Half a dozen years ago I responded to an ad for inexpensive silver eagles in a national magazine. Deal was good but what followed was repeated high pressure calls to soak me on hyper inflated $20 Gold coins. Dealer was a PNG member.
I let it run for a while until I tipped him off that I knew more about rare coins than he did.
I guess for some PNG folks...rules are optional anyway.
It's obvious that at this point people are going to wonder why a coin that should have been sent into CAC by now has no sticker. Maybe dealers have the wrong idea about the purpose of CAC? Maybe the CAC sticker is there to help collectors , and dealers are feeling butthurt because it gets used against them once in a blue moon? .
Just to reiterate , dealers don't make the coins they just endlessly shuffle them around they are middlemen, and the best thing you can do with middlemen is get rid of most of them. Maybe if we cut the deadwood out of the dealer loop collectors could see prices go down . To me that would be a good thing , but then I'm just collecting things I like , not deluding myself that its an investment. I don't need and don't want higher prices .
Disclose the coins that get sent in and don't sticker , if that means a lot of marginal dealers wind up flipping burgers , so be it.
They would not do it.....their very fine print disclaimer is bad and close enough for them to disclose
PNG dealers are already required to not make misrepresentations. So if CAC is important to you, ask the dealer and he'll be required to tell you the truth.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks for relating another bad experience. It seems to me that you may be one of the few folks posting on CU that has continuous bad luck. As a member of PNG, I sincerely hope things change for all of you in the future as your post has made me sad to learn of your experience. Now I'll take a short break for some chocolate so I feel better.
Your position quite frankly surprises me. From past posts you have made it clear you dont value CAC stickers. You, like some others, have stated you rely on your eyes and education. Why then would you want a rule that requires dealers to post such info regarding what CAC thinks?
Look at prices realized for an answer to your question
If you are indeed a PNG member, the better response would be "who is this character, we need to weed out this type of bad actor as they are damaging the reputation of our prestigious organization"
Truth is, PNG is another acronym on a website and a way to get a fee break from Ebay.
Enjoy the nestles.
I don't like Tesla either, but previous storm and hail damage should be disclosed upon resale.
Because sometimes there is storm damage and someone tries to cover it up and it's not easy to see except from an expert's eye?
ALL "history" of what's been done to or with a coin should be confidential unless SPECIFICALLY authorized by the source of the coin TO THE DEALER!
I based my business on COMPLETE anonymity and confidence in the ...past... while informing all buyers that history begins now.
The ramifications and exposure to litigation for ANY reason is ....reason enough... to base everything on what happens ...NEXT... not before.
I don't have an issue at all with cac coins and even have two I would of purchased without the cac because I liked the coins.
The same thing can also be said about PCGS coins over NGC coins of prices realized in the same grade.
I actually agree with coinstartled :_ Well I agree 100% with that. PNG though promotes itself in a manner that suggests transparency regarding information and research on the coins sold by their dealer members.
A digital trail of CAC submissions is reasonable considering their adherence to honest disclosure._
The only problem, a PNG dealer buys a coin from a collector and he will not have access to that info probably (the submission to CAC could be 2-3 owners away by this time)
Very simple solution: always ASK if the person selling you the coin if they will send it in (usually you have to pay a little more). A no is a HUGE red flag. Any dealer worth their salt knows they can get more from a CAC coin today, so why wouldn't be. Best LIE I have ever heard: I don't trust CAC.
In the interest of full transparency, do you have a financial interest in CAC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No Let the Buyer BEWARE.
1 - if your buying a coin, ask if it has been to CAC. They can only tell you what they have done with it, not what happened before it was in their possession, and then you have to trust the answer.
2 - if you want CAC's opinion, do what Laura suggested, ask the dealer to send it in. That will tell all........
3 - requiring a PNG dealer, or anyone to disclose whether something has been to CAC - ridiculous.
4 - learn to pick your dealers then you can trust the coins they sell.
5 - learn to judge surfaces yourself and how to grade.
Best, SH
Full transparency, NO I do not, nor does TDN. We used too.
I am re-visiting this to see the direction of this question. Eagle eye made the most compelling comment about grading for yourself. Eagle eye rightly advocates taking accountability and I will add that blaming others for your own inability to develop skills that are important to be an informed numismatist to really appreciate or evaluate coins... Period. In order to make buying decisions, your knowledge is important and that knowledge cannot be passed off to a dealer, a TPG or anyone else. While it is terrific to work with dealers and have coins graded and snickered, collectors are the driver of their own collecting bus and need to understand grading ramifications, original patina and what are the attributes of quality and what is not.
Whether a dealer discloses whether a coin stickered or not is simply not an excuse for developing skills to make your own numismatic decision. And the time one complains about how they have been wronged for whatever reason could be better spent learning about what matters.
A very prominent member here wrote... And I am paraphrasing... "There is no Numismatic Santa Claus"... My response and experience dictates that is not always the case. Knowledge at several levels simply cannot be overlooked in the unpredictable numismatic journey.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
No....logistically impossible unless CAC provides public access to their database...which IMHO will never happen...
It would hurt a lot of dealers business models, then they would cry.
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
I regard many of your posts as a "cry for attention" and not based on actual experiences. That's why I was unhappy that this one may be true. Even a curmudgeon
who hates people can show a tiny bit of empathy once a year. Today was my day. 
Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling.
Collectors should be very careful about condemning all coins without CAC stickers to the dustbin. First, it’s going to reduce the supply of “collectable” pieces to a much small number, which will drive up prices.
I know that what a lot of CAC folks want, but it also makes the hobby less attractive to new blood, which is something we sorely need. High prices for everything collectable will not help this hobby to grow and prosper. “Peaceful co-existence” between CAC and non-CAC material would be a much better scenario.
As for those who want their hand held for them whenever they make a purchase, you are part of the problem. You need to learn to grade non CAC material if you want to play the CAC certification game. That was the way it was when certification holders came on the scene. Dealers who made money, where the dealers who “made coins” into certified pieces.
Putting the “mark of Caine” on large number of coins, is going hurt the hobby. If you destroy the hobby, even the coins with your stickers on them won’t be worth what you think that should be worth because the new buyers won’t be there.
I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner.
Leonidas or? Do tell. Love the Leonidas shop next to the Grand Place..........
Best, SH
Seriously ? Why can't CAC publish a list of coins that didn't sticker.
I understand if coins are sent in then later upgraded or crossed over cracked out conserved blah blah blah etc. there will be gaps holes dead ends in the list but that happens with slabs too. All that fiddly nonsense affects slabs moreso , and yes the TPG's don't publish a list of failed coins but a sticker doesn't get pasted on a raw coin it goes on a slab that can be looked up so its not the same.
It can't be that CAC is hoping some fool will resubmit a coin more than once because they don't know it already made the trip. It can't be that , that is chicken feed.
While I was goofing around above when I said
Its actually true. A stack of tissues that reached to the moon would not be enough to dry the tears of coin dealers who would suddenly have to correctly represent a coins background. They wouldn't be able to spin some yarn about how that unstickered beauty in the rattler holder ( that had changed hands 32 times since it was shoehorned into its present plastic tomb) was a lock for an upgrade , and the deadwood would begin to pile up in their inventory at a relentless pace.
Heee's baaaack.....
This hobby has survived gradeflation, bad coin docs, total crooks, and so much more. New people seem to have a better access to education about what and how to buy. The big money likes CAC and most now insist on it-they are not stupid. I can"t think of ANY legitimate dealer who would say the hobby is ruined by CAC and all the info out there. Newbies only runaway when they are faced with things like gradeflation, doctored coins, etc.
Would it be for the best is NEWBIES just go off and buy with no insurance only to find out they bought bad coins? Sorry, all the info possible about a coin helps.
I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this
Seriously? What would be the point of that besides attracting lawsuits and many other bad things. The OP's question was ridiculous to start with, I am amazed folks here took it seriously - think about the market and then you will know why the answer to OP's question is NO.
It depends if there was a witness and they find the body
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Funny! I have never dealt with them. I wasn’t sure what was required of its members. Or if they have any actual punitive powers. Never really thought about it before.
One point would be to put a lot of "excess" dealers out of business . As far as the market goes , who cares ? I'm a collector I want lower prices for the stuff I like while I'm alive . When I'm dead whoever winds up with my stuff can do the best they can with what they inherit and if they don't like it they can go pound sand.
I know a lot of you characters think higher prices are a good thing , so thats cute and all but dealers are in business to make money. Collectors are not in business and no they don't make any money. Ok maybe 5% do but most churn through a lot of coins and go broke slowly or sometimes quickly and along the way they lie to themselves about it.
So the missing dealers , those we can replace with vending machines in strategic locations . Put your chip card in , wait for it to beep or boop or whatever. Press the button that says 1881-s morgan select your grade and sticker type and crunch crunch a slab falls out the little hole and you are hero of the registry for a day.
Then the short attention span of the average coin collector kicks in so there's a hole up top where you put the slab you bought last week , it goes in and the machine offers you 50% of what you paid towards your next choice. You hit accept offer and buy the same coin one grade higher for twice as much.
Hmm does anyone know if the patent office is open on weekends?
Oh what's the use?|
Because CAC doesn't want to hire multiple lawyers full time to handle all of the lawsuits that would result...
That would have to wait until the dozens of pending gradeflation lawsuits are resolved.
Coins are fun.
I really don't know the answer to all of this, BUT does PNG require member dealers to:
If the answer to any of those questions is "no", then why are we picking on CAC? The only reason I would care if the coin had been to CAC [I assume this is a sight seen sale] is if I'm considering submitting it myself. Otherwise, I'm looking at the coin.
We are actually getting into a funny area of the market. It's similar to OGH. People often pay a premium for an OGH because they think it is sure to upgrade in the current market. People pay a premium for sealed proof sets on the off chance there is a DCAM in there. Is the idea here that someone would pay more for a CAC virgin coin on the off chance that it MIGHT CAC?
This!
[Sorry I didn't read it before I posted.]
You don't need to be a rapist to report a rape.
A rather odd tangent. I am not sure that the dealer was violating any laws per se, just covenants of the PNG agreement.
No need to disclose especially for any high value coin. If not stickered, it is pretty safe to assume it did not pass.
Not really a tangent. The point is that the victim is the one who reports the "crime" or ethical violation. If your plumber messes up your pipes, you don't ask another plumber to file the complaint with the BBB. If you feel that the dealer you did business with was acting unethically, you are the one who should report them to PNG.
Again...what interest do I have in helping PNG? They know who the bad apples are.
Maybe. Although they only know because SOMEONE reported them.
[P.S. I'm also not a believer in PNG.]
So they toss the guy from PNG, operation continues unabated. Not worth a phone call.
Has anyone considered whether CAC is an anchor?
Gradeflation continues. If I've got a 65 CAC that would cross over to a 66 - do I cross it into a non-CAC 66? Would CAC verification standards evolve as market grading standards evolve?
It's called hype and one day everyone will get over it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
No, no more than they should the plastic history of the coin. Only thing worse and less relevant than an opinion is an old opinion.
Crackout dealer; “ I just want you to know this was in the undergrade holder last month”
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
When you are making @Insider2 look like a friendly puppy, you might need a stiff drink.
So, I take it the point of this thread was really just to crap on PNG. The CAC question is irrelevant?
[I mean, that's okay, just want to make sure I have the proper subtext.]
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?