Should PNG require dealers to disclose coins submitted to CAC that fail to sticker?
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
As PNG carries the torch of ethics and morality in the numismatic trade, the Moses like tablet of rules should probably require dealers to disclose when a coin fails at CAC. They certainly boast of the successes.
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Comments
No, that would be the death blow to the coin industry.
Definitely yes. Honesty and transparency should be a part of any legitimate professional organization.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They don't have to. If they are selling any CAC coins, you can bet that they have sent all valuable coins in already! At least that is what I think in my mind. For example, dealer has 10 $500 coins all with CAC but a 10K coin is sitting there feeling all left out, kind of like Skip @Insider2 does around here. It was a reject for sure!
I just ask.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A Dealer I used frequently would let me know.
I generally agree but he may have just bought that $10K coin and is trying to flip it. If it doesn't sell at the show he'll probably include it with the next batch of coins that he sends to CAC unless he feels that the coin is low end or has other issues that'll keep it from being blessed by CAC.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In what way. If Wabbit is correct, the more advanced collectors already factor in a fail with many non stickered dealer inventory coins.
Only the rube is left to be mislead, and no one here wants that.
And then find yourself being lied to? Because I've had it happen to me numerous times...
I only work with a handful of dealers. I trust them. If I don’t know them I won’t ask.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No. CAC is just one more opinion.
No...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
So if you know a coin did not pass CAC, do you use that as a tool to try to get a better deal?
The assumption now is that if it doesn't have a sticker, it wouldn't/hasn't.
Yes. If the coin passed at CAC, doesn't the dealer "use that as a tool to try to get a better deal"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
thats pretty moving they way you say " Carries the torch of ethics and morality" makes me want to recite the pledge of allegiance.
What would be the point? It would merely be ignored by PNG members like many other of its "rules."
Good point.
...or say the Kaddish.
Hey---i thought I'm the one who posts a CAC thread once a week?
HLRC attempts to let buyers know on its website if they are aware whether a coin has been sent to CAC
So a dealer must keep an inventory sheet of what coins failed CAC, then he wholesales several of them to another dealer who must keep track, then this dealer must keep track with his list, pretty soon you have a list the size of the yellow pages.
You either like the coin or you don’t. You either buy all CAC coins or you don’t.
Put on your big boy pants and deceide for yourself.
This is why CAC doesn’t publish a list of coins that fail ,,,,,,, it would make vast numbers of otherwise perfectly acceptable coins much harder to market.
If all you know is if one particular dealer didn’t send it in what about all the people who previously owned the coin? Did they send it in?
Maybe each coin should have a computer chip recording the name and phone numbers of all previous owners then you could call all of them and ask.
People need to take responsibility for their own decisions and other people should quit trying to save other people from themselves.
I buy CAC coins and I buy non-CAC coins and submit them myself, I don’t need anyone to protect me from myself. If a few fail that is all part of the game.
A coin simply failing to CAC or QA Check or get a Wings Sticker or Eagle Eye Seal doesn’t in itself make it a bad coin.
nevermind........
Best, SH
Disclaimer: I sell common crap but nonetheless...I have been adding if it stickered or not inside the description of all my eBay listings for the last couple months and haven’t noticed a difference in sales...why not, I would want to know, so.
Edit to add: I say no to the PNG thing though...it’s up to who owns the coin to give up that information...they either do or they don’t, that’s all
""""People need to take responsibility for their own decisions and other people should quit trying to save other people from themselves."""
Well I agree 100% with that. PNG though promotes itself in a manner that suggests transparency regarding information and research on the coins sold by their dealer members.
A digital trail of CAC submissions is reasonable considering their adherence to honest disclosure.
BTW, I don't recall a buyer ever asking me if a coin failed to sticker but if asked I would tell them the truth. I just feel requiring a dealer to keep track and report this info to the PNG or anyone else is a bit too much.
I would also think anybody attempting to start such a data base would find themself slapped with a huge lawsuit.
Too much hand holding. What next? They must report how many times a coin has been submitted before being graded.
Each coin could have a side panel similar to today's nutrition information on food packages that might state-
"Number of times dipped...
PVC removed with X solvent...
Previous grades through PCGS...
Previous grades through NGC...
Previous grades through ANACS...
Previous grades through "other"...
Previous CAC opinion...
Treated with the following color inducing agents..."
I could see that label catching on big-time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
CAC is pass/fail. I think it's possible if collectors stood to lose a large amount of their collections value because of publicized "fails" it could become quite an issue.
Think about this: Two coins certified by the same top tier TPG as MS65. One is "market influenced" upward with a sticker. The other is "market influenced" down by a database saying it failed in someone's opinion.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Of course not. First of all, there are no bullets in that gun, so why bother? Second, if it's valuable at all, you can just assume that it has been tried and didn't pass. Finally, it would be virtually impossible to prove what the dealer knew and when he knew it. Some dealers have thousands of coins in inventory and the turnover can be incredibly rapid.
No.
There are two or three dealers I know and do a lot of business with that will inform me if it has been tried and failed. I too as well when selling too them disclose this , even if they happen not to ask. IMO, its just professional way to do business.
WHY??!!
Well, whenever I ask "has this coin been to cac?" I get the answer: "Well, I don't know, not by me.."
Absolutely Not! This has been discussed here many many times, nothing has changed.
We could also add grades based on the ever changing grading standards:
Grade by ANA standards...
Grade by rattler standards...
Grade by early OGH standards...
Grade by late OGH standards...
Grade by old blue holder standards...
Grade by blue gradient holder standards...
Grade by CAC standards...
Projected grade for the future accounting for inflation...
I suppose those that buy and sell would like to know this... as a collector, I do not care. No doubt that a CAC sticker commands a premium in today's market... so those who buy and sell take their chance on non-stickered coins...and we have also seen posts that say a coin stickered on a second try... so, there is the ambiguity of opinion as well. Ethically, if asked, a dealer should reveal if it has been sent in and failed... other than that, there is no legal obligation to inform. Cheers, RickO
None of the coins that I have for sale failed CAC. I do not send coins to CAC. I have no CAC stickers on my coins and my coins are some of the best for what they are. Take a look.
Why not grade it yourself and post that along with the certified grade? That's what I do.
PNG should require dealers to make refunds on coins that don't "pass" and those refunds should be delivered by unicorns.
It's too bad that errors aren't appreciated by more collectors.
They are cool, different, and usually far more...interesting..than regular coins.
It's a field where the actual appearance of the coin has more weight than the extent of wear.
I need glue.
Why? Is the PCGS and NGC "opinions" no longer good enough in today's market?
Agree. In the century old coins they are pretty scarce. I like unique coins.
i would leave that one alone. it might cause more harm then good. just saying
Pathetic.
If your moniker is an indication of what you sell, none of your coins would sticker because CAC will not sticker error coins regardless of how nice the pieces might be.
Sure then we can ask PCGS to put how many time a coin was regarded, Just put a small number on the cert on the lower corner some where. It will kill there business and no one wants to kill there business. But that's just me Dumb Type2 Thinking.
Hoard the keys.
I dont thknk it should be required but if dealers do it, it could give them a competitive advantage
No. A dealer cannot be held accountable for a coin's submission history prior to them taking ownership. Providing details about what a dealer has submitted to CAC and a coin's presumed prior history with CAC should be voluntary and not compulsory.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
No - it is internal business data.
Who would want impose such silly concept?
Do u Care? Learn how look at coins lol.
NO
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage