@jmlanzaf said:
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Trick question. Impossible to crack a coin out of a SEGS holder. Try it sometime!
@jmlanzaf said:
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Trick question. Impossible to crack a coin out of a SEGS holder. Try it sometime!
I've done it. It's just plastic. It's a very hard plastic, but just plastic.
@jmlanzaf said:
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Okay if some one needs it that bad to tell them not to buy a coin because it did not sticker maybe they shouldn't be buy coins.
There are a lot of coins that don't have a sticker that I will buy, then there are some with a sticker that I will not buy.. Buyers and sellers need to do there home work and not place the blame on a sticker Co or a grading Co.
I don't need it to tell me if I like that coin, if I buy a lemon it's my problem that's it cut and dry it happens.
@jmlanzaf said:
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Trick question. Impossible to crack a coin out of a SEGS holder. Try it sometime!
I've done it. It's just plastic. It's a very hard plastic, but just plastic.
Coinstartled was obviously joking but SEGS slabs have a reputation for being the most difficult slab to crack a coin out of.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@jmlanzaf said:
Here's another fun question: should they disclose that the coin used to be in a SEGS holder? And, if YOU knew the coin used to be in a SEGS holder even though it's in a PCGS holder now, would you pay less than if it had never been in a SEGS holder?
Trick question. Impossible to crack a coin out of a SEGS holder. Try it sometime!
I've done it. It's just plastic. It's a very hard plastic, but just plastic.
Coinstartled was obviously joking but SEGS slabs have a reputation for being the most difficult slab to crack a coin out of.
...Our host should have the hardest plastic...and then NGC the 2nd hardest...and so on down the line...at the SEGS level of hardness, one should be able to use their teeth to get the coin out of its plastic...kinda like opening a condom wrapper while holding a cocktail in the other hand
@CCGGG said:
Just because it didn't sticker (CAC) doesn't mean it's not correctly graded.
I fear that there are a lot of people here who don't understand that concept.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
at the SEGS level of hardness, one should be able to use their teeth to get the coin out of its plastic...kinda like opening a condom wrapper while holding a cocktail in the other hand
@CCGGG said:
CAC should just add all coins they have "graded" to their public database. Just because it didn't sticker doesn't mean it's not correctly graded.
Except that just because it didn't sticker doesn't mean it won't sticker.
The problem with all "opinions" is that they are NOT absolute.
Beyond that, the market is likely to view non-stickered coins as "overgraded". The number of people who don't understand CAC itself is astronomical. A lot of people assume CAC means it is undergraded while even a gold CAC doesn't mean anything except at the top end of the CURRENT grade range. Look at some of the CAC prices paid, they are often almost equal to the next highest grade (or more). A 65 CAC really should not sell for more than a 66 and it should not sell for the same as a 66. Even if you think it will upgrade, there's no guarantee it will upgrade and it would be foolish to pay full 66 money on the chance it will upgrade.
Having a list of coins that failed to CAC might well cause people to pay 64 money for 65 CAC-failed coins. Now, the market is the market and it is silly to argue with her judgments. But if I were NGC or PCGS, I might sue CAC if that happens because it is calling into question the judgment of the TPGs.
Oh wow-my real dream thread, a lets gang up on the PNG!!! I can't say I've lost much biz not being a member of that so important self service group (that still claims it has no coin docs as members)....
Again, real simple, if you are buying a non CAC coin, just ask the seller if they sent it (they will not know what the previous owner did most likely) , if it has not been in, ask for the okay for you send it. Right there you will know the story.
Lets face it most coin collectors are not too bright
I think most of them have above average intelligence. What some seem to lack is confidence.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
But, you have to start to wonder about the whole slab/sticker phenomenon. I started a different thread sort of laughing at the CAC on the Eliasberg 1913 nickel. There are a LOT of people arguing that a CAC on that coin increases the value. It's a true rarity with 5 known, all of which have been seen at the same time with NO ARGUMENT that the Eliasberg example isn't the finest. If the people who think the CAC adds value are correct, even people with $5 million in spending money aren't that bright because they will pay extra for a tiny little sticker on a coin that is so storied as to not even need a PCGS slab. The Eliasberg coin raw is as valuable as it is slabbed or slabbed and stickered.
I would love to know if JA paid for the right to CAC the Eliasberg nickel as opposed to the other way around.
What are you all disagreeing with me for ? I just translated JMlanzafs post into english
There is a non zero percentage of the coin collector universe that is dumber than a sack of doorknobs. If paying 66 money for 64 slabs with a gold sticker is how we define it so be it.
Myself if I get to that point of mental dysfunction I'd prefer a family member just pushed my wheelchair in front of the nearest slot machine and picked me up after my pension check was gone.
But, you have to start to wonder about the whole slab/sticker phenomenon. I started a different thread sort of laughing at the CAC on the Eliasberg 1913 nickel. There are a LOT of people arguing that a CAC on that coin increases the value. It's a true rarity with 5 known, all of which have been seen at the same time with NO ARGUMENT that the Eliasberg example isn't the finest. If the people who think the CAC adds value are correct, even people with $5 million in spending money aren't that bright because they will pay extra for a tiny little sticker on a coin that is so storied as to not even need a PCGS slab. The Eliasberg coin raw is as valuable as it is slabbed or slabbed and stickered.
I would love to know if JA paid for the right to CAC the Eliasberg nickel as opposed to the other way around.
I can’t remember one post asserting that it was absolutely worth more. I remember quite a few stating that it couldn’t hurt. And my own assertion that the downside was limited but the upside multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
No, he did not pay. Why would he need to do so? The auction house surely understands exactly my last sentence above.
I would love to know if JA paid for the right to CAC the Eliasberg nickel as opposed to the other way around.
I can’t remember one post asserting that it was absolutely worth more. I remember quite a few stating that it couldn’t hurt. And my own assertion that the downside was limited but the upside multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
No, he did not pay. Why would he need to do so? The auction house surely understands exactly my last sentence above.
I would be willing to wager that he did pay. There's no advantage to the seller or the auction house but there is tremendous advantage to CAC. Have you not noticed how NGC and PCGS brag about which famous coins they slabbed? I doubt very much the owner of the Eliasberg specimen paid a cent to either PCGS or CAC for the housing and I would not be surprised if PCGS and CAC paid for the privilege of certifying the coin for promotional reasons.
If you own the King of Siam set, I'm pretty sure PCGS comes to you - not the other way around.
@Coinstartled replied to this response from me: "Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, **rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling."**
"I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner."
I cry FOUL! What a bunch of "Let George do it nonsense." I'm not a member of Ebay but if I have a problem I'm going to report it. I'm not a policeman but if someone shoots at me, I'm going to report it. I'm not a PCGS dealer but if I catch one that I feel is hurting that company in some way, I'm going to report it.
IMO, you have posted derogatory, libelous, hearsay about an organization here on CU. If true, I'll suggest again that you actually do the right thing, contact PNG, and express your displeasure. If you wish for someone else to do your work, PM me with the details and I shall pass your complaint on. Otherwise...
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
Leonidas or? Do tell. Love the Leonidas shop next to the Grand Place..........
Best, SH
Wittamer. I've only been out of the country twice and never to Europe. I rely on others for special treats. I forget we live in modern times and I don't know why I just don't go online for myself. I've never had Leonidas but I've heard of them. I should be curious if we were given a square of plain milk chocolate from 5 of the best makers if they would tast differently. Probably so as even a few grains of salt one way or the other can alter a taste.
@No Headlights said: "I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this.
On occasion, a member is suspended from that organization. just as is done by the ANA. AFAIK it is infrequent.
@Coinstartled said: "Again...what interest do I have in helping PNG? They know who the bad apples are."
Well said, you show your true colors.
Now, back to the topic.
For the life of me, I cannot understand how a group of supposedly intelligent, knowledgeable, dealers and collectors CANNOT UNDERSTAND a very simple concept. Grades are divided on a scale with different levels. Each level can be divided further depending on how detailed we wish to be. SIMPLE SO FAR?
Within each level, there are coins that just will just be acceptable at one end and coins that might occasionally jump to the next level. Still with me?
A TPGS trys to establish the specific level (grade) a coin falls into. Usually very easy except for "liners." CAC picks out the coins within a grade that are not anywhere near the bottom and also picks coins they feel should grade higher. THAT'S ALL. For all purposes, a coin that is graded in that slab by our host (for example) is that grade - CAC Sticker or not. In an attempt to compete with CAC, the TPGS added * and + to their grades.
IMO, CAC can only kill the market for coins w/o their approval for those folks who cannot grade. They are too ignorant to judge a coin for themselves so unstickered coins are not as easy to sell to them. THAT DID NOT CHANGE the coin's grade! Meanwhile, the market for stickered coins increases. The sticker DID NOT CHANGE the coin's grade.
Unfortunately, CAC has become a major player because the TPGS's were not doing a satisfactory job concerning some aspects of grading (doctored coins is one often mentioned). This has happened in the past to other businesses.
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
Leonidas or? Do tell. Love the Leonidas shop next to the Grand Place..........
Best, SH
Wittamer. I've only been out of the country twice and never to Europe. I rely on others for special treats. I forget we live in modern times and I don't know why I just don't go online for myself. I've never had Leonidas but I've heard of them. I should be curious if we were given a square of plain milk chocolate from 5 of the best makers if they would tast differently. Probably so as even a few grains of salt one way or the other can alter a taste.
Nice! There are some pretty amazing chocolatières in Belgium and especially in the city center of Brussels. Always fun to visit and do tastings and you are correct there are subtle differences. Wittamer is major high end and has a shop in the Place Grand Sablon, a few blocks from the Grand Place but in a very quaint area. Several other chocolatières on the same block.
Actually, Belgian Chocolates fresh from Europe last week. They did the trick as I had completely forgotten about your "story" until now.
Leonidas or? Do tell. Love the Leonidas shop next to the Grand Place..........
Best, SH
Wittamer. I've only been out of the country twice and never to Europe. I rely on others for special treats. I forget we live in modern times and I don't know why I just don't go online for myself. I've never had Leonidas but I've heard of them. I should be curious if we were given a square of plain milk chocolate from 5 of the best makers if they would tast differently. Probably so as even a few grains of salt one way or the other can alter a taste.
Nice! There are some pretty amazing chocolatières in Belgium and especially in the city center of Brussels. Always fun to visit and do tastings and you are correct there are subtle differences. Wittamer is major high end and has a shop in the Place Grand Sablon, a few blocks from the Grand Place but in a very quaint area. Several other chocolatières on the same block.
Best, SH
Must be nice to walk around Brussels sampling the wares.
I can’t remember one post asserting that it was absolutely worth more. I remember quite a few stating that it couldn’t hurt. And my own assertion that the downside was limited but the upside multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
It would be foolish to assert that the 13 Nickel is "absolutely worth more" with a sticker. Maybe sometimes it is, and other times it isn't. And on the day of the auction, we won't know if the sticker added value unless we determine what the winner and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
All bidders should be required to state their thoughts.
All the way through.
I mean if disclosure is important.
Maybe they can think other stuff after the auction is over, but they should keep everyone in the room current on their thoughts as they occur.
If data on coins that did not get the CAC green opinion were public revealed (1) Would TPG or Owners of this material file suit move against CAC? (2) Owners of this material would be motivated crack and resubmit so no record of cert number on some did not sticker list.
I think knowledge whether coin did not sticker or not is property of the owner. I would side w the owner / or TPG plaintiff. We’re a sticker service publishing a list of material that did not sticker (including my items I had submitted or owned) I would terminate my business dealings with them.
I can’t remember one post asserting that it was absolutely worth more. I remember quite a few stating that it couldn’t hurt. And my own assertion that the downside was limited but the upside multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
It would be foolish to assert that the 13 Nickel is "absolutely worth more" with a sticker. Maybe sometimes it is, and other times it isn't. And on the day of the auction, we won't know if the sticker added value unless we determine what the winner and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Wild card is the non bidder who was hoping for an upgrade and was deterred by the Green CAC glass ceiling.
and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Wild card is the non bidder who was hoping for an upgrade and was deterred by the Green CAC glass ceiling.
Actually, I know you're kidding but you could make an argument that the coin would be worth more raw [if you think the slab grade matters, which I don't] because a 67 or 68 would still be possible. It's the reason that people like unopened mint sets and the very reason that people want the CAC failures reported.
and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Wild card is the non bidder who was hoping for an upgrade and was deterred by the Green CAC glass ceiling.
Actually, I know you're kidding but you could make an argument that the coin would be worth more raw [if you think the slab grade matters, which I don't] because a 67 or 68 would still be possible. It's the reason that people like unopened mint sets and the very reason that people want the CAC failures reported.
Well I wasn't kidding. Even at the upper echelon of numismatics, folks like higher numbers more than lower (TDN to his credit has had coins in his set downgraded when appropriate)
To Andy's point, unless we can read the minds of those in contention, it is hard in this case to measure the added (or lessened) value that the sticker imparts.
Well I wasn't kidding. Even at the upper echelon of numismatics, folks like higher numbers more than lower (TDN to his credit has had coins in his set downgraded when appropriate)
To Andy's point, unless we can read the minds of those in contention, it is hard in this case to measure the added (or lessened) value that the sticker imparts.
Well then I retract my assertion that you were kidding.
And how would we determine the winner? Are there any CAC insiders here?
Save your money. There could be no quicker way to ruin CAC's business model and reputation than to do what you are suggesting they did.
Strongly disagree. You are assuming the coin doesn't merit a sticker. If you are CAC, you want to advertise yourself on the great rarities.
It's a little less obvious for CAC as there is no competitor. But it is obvious that NGC would not want PCGS to get the coins and Vice Versa. Bragging rights.
@topstuf said:
Have we determined from this thread that all expensive coins are failures if there isn't a sticker?
It would appear so, and that does not bode well for the hobby. Be careful what you wish for.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@topstuf said:
Have we determined from this thread that all expensive coins are failures if there isn't a sticker?
I think even inexpensive coins are failures if they don't sticker. So, soon I'll need to submit all my $35 MS64 Morgans for a $15 sticker to make sure they are actually worth $35 rather than $25. That way, I'll guarantee losing $5 per Morgan rather than risk losing $10 per Morgan. Of course, for the ones that fail to sticker, I will lose $25 ($35-$25=$10 + $15 to not get the sticker).
This could be the end of coin collecting. All coins need $50 in slabs/stickers before they are worth $35 in the marketplace. Even with bulk dealer submissions, I need $22 in slabs & stickers to make my $35 coin worth $35. So, that makes the wholesale price on raw UNC morgans about $10 each.
here we go with stupidity. unless you have bought and sold coins considered classic rarities, you have no clue what you are saying-as usual.
**
**__Have we determined from this thread that all expensive coins are failures if there isn't a sticker?
It would appear so, and that does not bode well for the hobby. Be careful what you wish for.__****
EVERY Major player I know: Bruce, Link, Jung, Pogue, Simpson never bought ANY classic rarity based on CAC-it always helps tho. BUT they studied up on the full history of the coin before buying them. Look at the 1808 $2.5 Jung bought. It was clearly over graded by a half point-but it was by miles the very best 1808. It was not messed with-it was just CAC's opinion. That coin will always bring record money.
The deceased owner of the 1913 5C bought it because he loved the romance of the date-I should know, I sold it to him and am still teary eyed about the speech he had prepared for us when he bought it. A CAC bean was meaningless as the history and grade of the coin were clear cut.
I can't believe how silly people are to think that CAC offer to pay to bean the coin. Please.....Seriously people, get off your chip on the shoulder mentality about CAC. At least when PCGS was started, there were no chatrooms to spill the untrue garbage. Obviously, many people would have been anti PCGS/3rd party grading back then of they could have.
Comments
Trick question. Impossible to crack a coin out of a SEGS holder. Try it sometime!
I've done it. It's just plastic. It's a very hard plastic, but just plastic.
Would there be any lingering odor?
Okay if some one needs it that bad to tell them not to buy a coin because it did not sticker maybe they shouldn't be buy coins.
There are a lot of coins that don't have a sticker that I will buy, then there are some with a sticker that I will not buy.. Buyers and sellers need to do there home work and not place the blame on a sticker Co or a grading Co.
I don't need it to tell me if I like that coin, if I buy a lemon it's my problem that's it cut and dry it happens.
Hoard the keys.
Coinstartled was obviously joking but SEGS slabs have a reputation for being the most difficult slab to crack a coin out of.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
...Our host should have the hardest plastic...and then NGC the 2nd hardest...and so on down the line...at the SEGS level of hardness, one should be able to use their teeth to get the coin out of its plastic...kinda like opening a condom wrapper while holding a cocktail in the other hand
Would give the sticker even more power.
CAC should just add all coins they have "graded" to their public database. Just because it didn't sticker doesn't mean it's not correctly graded.
I fear that there are a lot of people here who don't understand that concept.
at the SEGS level of hardness, one should be able to use their teeth to get the coin out of its plastic...kinda like opening a condom wrapper while holding a cocktail in the other hand
Now there's a man who likes his booze!
Except that just because it didn't sticker doesn't mean it won't sticker.
The problem with all "opinions" is that they are NOT absolute.
Beyond that, the market is likely to view non-stickered coins as "overgraded". The number of people who don't understand CAC itself is astronomical. A lot of people assume CAC means it is undergraded while even a gold CAC doesn't mean anything except at the top end of the CURRENT grade range. Look at some of the CAC prices paid, they are often almost equal to the next highest grade (or more). A 65 CAC really should not sell for more than a 66 and it should not sell for the same as a 66. Even if you think it will upgrade, there's no guarantee it will upgrade and it would be foolish to pay full 66 money on the chance it will upgrade.
Having a list of coins that failed to CAC might well cause people to pay 64 money for 65 CAC-failed coins. Now, the market is the market and it is silly to argue with her judgments. But if I were NGC or PCGS, I might sue CAC if that happens because it is calling into question the judgment of the TPGs.
Oh wow-my real dream thread, a lets gang up on the PNG!!! I can't say I've lost much biz not being a member of that so important self service group (that still claims it has no coin docs as members)....
Again, real simple, if you are buying a non CAC coin, just ask the seller if they sent it (they will not know what the previous owner did most likely) , if it has not been in, ask for the okay for you send it. Right there you will know the story.
Short but sweet
Lets face it most coin collectors are not too bright
I think most of them have above average intelligence. What some seem to lack is confidence.
I'm sure @bronco2078 is kidding.
But, you have to start to wonder about the whole slab/sticker phenomenon. I started a different thread sort of laughing at the CAC on the Eliasberg 1913 nickel. There are a LOT of people arguing that a CAC on that coin increases the value. It's a true rarity with 5 known, all of which have been seen at the same time with NO ARGUMENT that the Eliasberg example isn't the finest. If the people who think the CAC adds value are correct, even people with $5 million in spending money aren't that bright because they will pay extra for a tiny little sticker on a coin that is so storied as to not even need a PCGS slab. The Eliasberg coin raw is as valuable as it is slabbed or slabbed and stickered.
I would love to know if JA paid for the right to CAC the Eliasberg nickel as opposed to the other way around.
What are you all disagreeing with me for ? I just translated JMlanzafs post into english
There is a non zero percentage of the coin collector universe that is dumber than a sack of doorknobs. If paying 66 money for 64 slabs with a gold sticker is how we define it so be it.
Myself if I get to that point of mental dysfunction I'd prefer a family member just pushed my wheelchair in front of the nearest slot machine and picked me up after my pension check was gone.
I can’t remember one post asserting that it was absolutely worth more. I remember quite a few stating that it couldn’t hurt. And my own assertion that the downside was limited but the upside multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
No, he did not pay. Why would he need to do so? The auction house surely understands exactly my last sentence above.
should they? probably, but reality is they have to make a living too.
I would be willing to wager that he did pay. There's no advantage to the seller or the auction house but there is tremendous advantage to CAC. Have you not noticed how NGC and PCGS brag about which famous coins they slabbed? I doubt very much the owner of the Eliasberg specimen paid a cent to either PCGS or CAC for the housing and I would not be surprised if PCGS and CAC paid for the privilege of certifying the coin for promotional reasons.
If you own the King of Siam set, I'm pretty sure PCGS comes to you - not the other way around.
Ok, I will wager you $10,000 that he didn’t
@Coinstartled replied to this response from me: "Therefore, I suggest that since you know (?) the PNG dealer's name, **rather than chastise me it is YOU who is the only person who can get the ball rolling."**
"I am not a PNG member. It is not my job to ferret out the rogues. There are perhaps a couple dozen high pressure gold coin shylocks prowling for suckers. The one I noted stood out as he advertised the PNG banner."
I cry FOUL! What a bunch of "Let George do it nonsense." I'm not a member of Ebay but if I have a problem I'm going to report it. I'm not a policeman but if someone shoots at me, I'm going to report it. I'm not a PCGS dealer but if I catch one that I feel is hurting that company in some way, I'm going to report it.
IMO, you have posted derogatory, libelous, hearsay about an organization here on CU. If true, I'll suggest again that you actually do the right thing, contact PNG, and express your displeasure. If you wish for someone else to do your work, PM me with the details and I shall pass your complaint on. Otherwise...
Wittamer. I've only been out of the country twice and never to Europe. I rely on others for special treats. I forget we live in modern times and I don't know why I just don't go online for myself. I've never had Leonidas but I've heard of them. I should be curious if we were given a square of plain milk chocolate from 5 of the best makers if they would tast differently. Probably so as even a few grains of salt one way or the other can alter a taste.
@No Headlights said: "I’m curious. How often does PNG actually suspend a dealer from PNG.? Ihave no idea how often they enforce their guidelines or in what manner. Like I stated I was curious. Thanks I’m advance to those who can answer this.
On occasion, a member is suspended from that organization. just as is done by the ANA. AFAIK it is infrequent.
@Coinstartled said: "Again...what interest do I have in helping PNG? They know who the bad apples are."
Well said, you show your true colors.
Now, back to the topic.
For the life of me, I cannot understand how a group of supposedly intelligent, knowledgeable, dealers and collectors CANNOT UNDERSTAND a very simple concept. Grades are divided on a scale with different levels. Each level can be divided further depending on how detailed we wish to be. SIMPLE SO FAR?
Within each level, there are coins that just will just be acceptable at one end and coins that might occasionally jump to the next level. Still with me?
A TPGS trys to establish the specific level (grade) a coin falls into. Usually very easy except for "liners." CAC picks out the coins within a grade that are not anywhere near the bottom and also picks coins they feel should grade higher. THAT'S ALL. For all purposes, a coin that is graded in that slab by our host (for example) is that grade - CAC Sticker or not. In an attempt to compete with CAC, the TPGS added * and + to their grades.
IMO, CAC can only kill the market for coins w/o their approval for those folks who cannot grade. They are too ignorant to judge a coin for themselves so unstickered coins are not as easy to sell to them. THAT DID NOT CHANGE the coin's grade! Meanwhile, the market for stickered coins increases. The sticker DID NOT CHANGE the coin's grade.
Unfortunately, CAC has become a major player because the TPGS's were not doing a satisfactory job concerning some aspects of grading (doctored coins is one often mentioned). This has happened in the past to other businesses.
See? I told you it was simple.
I'll take the same wager. 10k please!
Hey, this is a COIN forum. Who'd have ten grand?
Nice! There are some pretty amazing chocolatières in Belgium and especially in the city center of Brussels. Always fun to visit and do tastings and you are correct there are subtle differences. Wittamer is major high end and has a shop in the Place Grand Sablon, a few blocks from the Grand Place but in a very quaint area. Several other chocolatières on the same block.
Best, SH
Must be nice to walk around Brussels sampling the wares.
Very few of graded material in marketplace CAC any how. I find this thread and it’s silly question entertaining - LMAO.
Learn how look at coins.
Giving Laura a run for her money? Lol
It would be foolish to assert that the 13 Nickel is "absolutely worth more" with a sticker. Maybe sometimes it is, and other times it isn't. And on the day of the auction, we won't know if the sticker added value unless we determine what the winner and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
All bidders should be required to state their thoughts.
All the way through.
I mean if disclosure is important.
Maybe they can think other stuff after the auction is over, but they should keep everyone in the room current on their thoughts as they occur.
That's what I think.!!!!
If data on coins that did not get the CAC green opinion were public revealed (1) Would TPG or Owners of this material file suit move against CAC? (2) Owners of this material would be motivated crack and resubmit so no record of cert number on some did not sticker list.
I think knowledge whether coin did not sticker or not is property of the owner. I would side w the owner / or TPG plaintiff. We’re a sticker service publishing a list of material that did not sticker (including my items I had submitted or owned) I would terminate my business dealings with them.
Cries of libel and offers of $10,000 wagers.
This has become quite a donnybrook.
And how would we determine the winner? Are there any CAC insiders here?
Wild card is the non bidder who was hoping for an upgrade and was deterred by the Green CAC glass ceiling.
and underbidder were thinking. Whatever anyone else thinks at that point in time is irrelevant.
Actually, I know you're kidding but you could make an argument that the coin would be worth more raw [if you think the slab grade matters, which I don't] because a 67 or 68 would still be possible. It's the reason that people like unopened mint sets and the very reason that people want the CAC failures reported.
Well I wasn't kidding. Even at the upper echelon of numismatics, folks like higher numbers more than lower (TDN to his credit has had coins in his set downgraded when appropriate)
To Andy's point, unless we can read the minds of those in contention, it is hard in this case to measure the added (or lessened) value that the sticker imparts.
Well then I retract my assertion that you were kidding.
Can the LOL stay?
Yes, unless you'd like to trade it in for an "agree"
I do like the idea of a "green glass ceiling".... or maybe "Green CAC ceiling"
Save your money. There could be no quicker way to ruin CAC's business model and reputation than to do what you are suggesting they did.
Strongly disagree. You are assuming the coin doesn't merit a sticker. If you are CAC, you want to advertise yourself on the great rarities.
It's a little less obvious for CAC as there is no competitor. But it is obvious that NGC would not want PCGS to get the coins and Vice Versa. Bragging rights.
Have we determined from this thread that all expensive coins are failures if there isn't a sticker?
It would appear so, and that does not bode well for the hobby. Be careful what you wish for.
I think even inexpensive coins are failures if they don't sticker. So, soon I'll need to submit all my $35 MS64 Morgans for a $15 sticker to make sure they are actually worth $35 rather than $25. That way, I'll guarantee losing $5 per Morgan rather than risk losing $10 per Morgan. Of course, for the ones that fail to sticker, I will lose $25 ($35-$25=$10 + $15 to not get the sticker).
This could be the end of coin collecting. All coins need $50 in slabs/stickers before they are worth $35 in the marketplace. Even with bulk dealer submissions, I need $22 in slabs & stickers to make my $35 coin worth $35. So, that makes the wholesale price on raw UNC morgans about $10 each.
Mark Feld was the first dealer to disclose which of his new inventory items did not sticker.
Apparently that business plan worked as well as being an honest used car dealer
here we go with stupidity. unless you have bought and sold coins considered classic rarities, you have no clue what you are saying-as usual.
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**__Have we determined from this thread that all expensive coins are failures if there isn't a sticker?
It would appear so, and that does not bode well for the hobby. Be careful what you wish for.__****
EVERY Major player I know: Bruce, Link, Jung, Pogue, Simpson never bought ANY classic rarity based on CAC-it always helps tho. BUT they studied up on the full history of the coin before buying them. Look at the 1808 $2.5 Jung bought. It was clearly over graded by a half point-but it was by miles the very best 1808. It was not messed with-it was just CAC's opinion. That coin will always bring record money.
The deceased owner of the 1913 5C bought it because he loved the romance of the date-I should know, I sold it to him and am still teary eyed about the speech he had prepared for us when he bought it. A CAC bean was meaningless as the history and grade of the coin were clear cut.
I can't believe how silly people are to think that CAC offer to pay to bean the coin. Please.....Seriously people, get off your chip on the shoulder mentality about CAC. At least when PCGS was started, there were no chatrooms to spill the untrue garbage. Obviously, many people would have been anti PCGS/3rd party grading back then of they could have.
David Kahn often discloses which haven't and goes a bit further to state his amazement.
Which I usually agree with.
"Nice" doesn't always mean "sticker."
hey I have coins that don't sticker and I mention them, but darn if I know what happened before I bought them.
I make my life simply, 99% of the time I sell CAC to my customers.