Sometimes conservation is necessary - "before" and "after" pics

jonathanb · March 28, 2018 6:25PM

I know that conservation is something of a dirty word, but sometimes it really is the best option.

I bought this piece as part of a larger lot. This is HK-17, a So-Called Dollar (and US Mint Medal) struck for the Centennial Celebration of the Battle of Lexington in 1875. The pictures are accurate. Half of the bronze medal was bright green. Absolutely disgusting. In this state it is worth approximately nothing. I might have been able to give it away, and I'm not even sure about that.

For the record, I tried poking at it with a bit of acetone. It laughed at the acetone. Not even a hint of green came off on the q-tip. Which didn't surprise me at all, but I did give it a shot.

I was sending some other stuff for conservation anyway, so I included this in the submission. I asked them to see if they could at least get the bright green to turn brown or black. As a corroded but not completely disgusting piece I could probably sell it on eBay to pay for the conservation fees, and maybe make a few bucks.

Would anyone like to guess what the label says after conservation? Take a guess. Take several...

messydesk · March 28, 2018 6:31PM

Looking forward to the "after" pictures. As for what the holder will say, "environmental damage" seems most likely.

Zoins · March 28, 2018 7:27PM

MS64BN?

Justacommeman · March 28, 2018 7:30PM

@jonathanb I love your writing style. Can’t wait for the reveal. I’m hoping for a straight grade. Half of the coin appears to be MS

m

DCAM · March 28, 2018 7:43PM

MS 65 BN

BlindedByEgo · March 28, 2018 8:09PM

"Harshly Cleaned"

jonathanb · March 28, 2018 8:33PM

I'll post pictures in the morning. In the meantime... two or three people think that this got a straight grade? Really? What do you see in the picture that makes you think this could get a straight grade after conservation?

lkeigwin · March 28, 2018 8:34PM

Wow...is that lighting really balanced? Crazy.

The OP suggests something surprisingly positive. I would have guessed environmental damage.
Lance.

Zoins · March 28, 2018 8:36PM

@lkeigwin said:
The OP suggests something surprisingly positive.

Yes, I'm preparing myself to be surprised!

davewesen · March 29, 2018 12:24AM

xf details corroded is my guess

SurfinxHI · March 29, 2018 12:35AM

Ms63 BN is my vote. And you will make more than a few bucks!

Straight grade response is cuz you’ve made it sound positive....

coinkat · March 29, 2018 2:56AM

Finally... The rarely seen key lime pie Lexington variety.

Seriously... Could straight grade but so much is riding on whether the copper itself sustained any porosity. A slight discoloration would not likely effect a straight grade, however if the appearance and lustre of the copper was diminished there would be limitations.

Hope it turned out well in that it was worth the undertaking.

ms70 · March 29, 2018 5:04AM

I hope it got a TrueView! Nice piece.

jonathanb · March 29, 2018 6:15AM

Everyone who looked at the pictures and said this could get a straight grade... you're nuts.

Also right.

But still nuts. :-)

I suppose @coinkat said it best with the comment about whether the copper sustained any porosity. I didn't think it was possible for copper to get rough green corrosion like in the original pics and not have porosity. Apparently so.

I still would not recommend that people go out and buy corroded pieces intentionally in hopes of repeating this. I would never have bought this piece on its own.

...and FWIW I don't exactly agree with the grade either. The color really isn't right, and the surfaces aren't really right either. Maybe the grade is technically correct. If I wanted a nice piece, I don't know that I'd be happy with this one.

On the other hand, that's the grade it's got now -- and top pop to boot.

Too-light pictures that show the surfaces more clearly:

JRocco · March 29, 2018 6:15AM

That looks like a really nice strong strike.
Can't wait to see the pics after conservation.

Rexford · March 29, 2018 6:19AM

Maybe it wasn't corrosion, just PVC?

jonathanb · March 29, 2018 6:22AM

Absolutely positively was not PVC.

It was hard and rough, not smooth and greasy/oily. PVC comes off with acetone. This didn't do anything with acetone.

I don't know what the deal was. but not PVC.

ricko · March 29, 2018 6:22AM

Now that is impressive.... I missed the opportunity to GTG, however, I would have said 64/65... believing that conservation would remove the green and likely the rest of the surface debris. Congratulations, the gamble paid off .... Cheers, RickO

1630Boston · March 29, 2018 6:33AM

I wonder what they used to 'conserve' it

jmlanzaf · March 29, 2018 6:36AM

@1630Boston said:
I wonder what they used to 'conserve' it

electrotyping

messydesk · March 29, 2018 6:46AM

Wow! I'd keep a close eye on it for a while. I have to wonder how stable the surfaces are after the crud was removed. Good call on your part sending it in.

Kkathyl · March 29, 2018 7:00AM

Fantastic.

asheland · March 29, 2018 12:29PM

I was going to guess ms63 BN. You did very well!

Boosibri · March 29, 2018 12:48PM

Wow! Cool thread

Connecticoin · March 29, 2018 4:52PM

How does it compare to other MS Brown pieces? At first blush, the color looks "off" but perhaps that is the way they look when BN.

steveben · March 29, 2018 5:06PM

wow. i hope it stabilizes now.

leothelyon · March 29, 2018 5:58PM

It totally lost its original skin in that area by a couple of harsh means and still grades MS66?

bsshog40 · March 29, 2018 6:36PM

Good decision to have it conserved. Looks very nice and nice grade too!

MedalCollector · March 29, 2018 6:59PM

Interesting! Thanks for posting. We're lucky, as students of this hobby, that you snapped those before photos!

It now seems to be dull, without the original gloss or "flash" that the bronzed medals usually have. Gross now, but not in the same way as before.

Still, the person whose job it was to conserve this one should be feeling pretty good about this one! Hope your other medals turned out well too!

jonathanb · March 29, 2018 7:10PM

It has gloss now. It's not the "right" gloss. Hard for me to explain. It actually looks pretty hairlined to me, which doesn't mesh with the MS-66 grade at all so I guess I'm reading something wrong.

I think I'm going to the Manchester NH coin show tomorrow (Friday). If anyone is there and wants to see it in person. send me a PM and we'll see if we can find each other.

I sent in 7 So-Called Dollars for conservation, got seven straight grades. None of the others started this bad or ended up with grades as high, but a few could be interesting for discussion. Maybe I'll post one or two more over the weekend or next week.

Zoins · March 29, 2018 7:30PM

Looks like all the guesses were too low, problems, MS63BN, MS64BN and MS65BN.

Looks like it came out pretty nice.

As for hairlines, I've always thought many straight-graded So-Called Dollars are more hairlined than may be allowed for other series.

scooter25 · March 29, 2018 7:42PM

Wow this is a great thread

Sandman70gt · March 29, 2018 9:31PM

This is a cool thread.
Outstanding results, thanks for posting and congrats on your choice to conserve it.

ms70 · March 29, 2018 9:37PM

I could live with that, and I'm really picky.

BlindedByEgo · March 29, 2018 11:11PM

But will it cross?

Nice score.

BuffaloIronTail · March 30, 2018 5:50AM

All I can say is WOW! Didn't see that grade coming.

Pete

Insider2 · March 30, 2018 7:30AM

Before guessing I was going to ask where you sent it as all TPCS's are not the same. Then I saw the image of the conserved coin. It came out pretty good. Nevertheless, IMO, it is over-graded.

keets · March 30, 2018 10:33AM

Jonathan, I have self-conserved some bronze medals which ended up looking similar to yours, with a shaded area which is lighter in color than the rest of the medal. the two that I remember best seemed to have been coated with shellac or something similar that came off after a long acetone bath. sent to NGC for encapsulation they rejected it as ED. to that point, I have never had NGC fail to grade anything they conserved for me.

you would know better, but perhaps what was on it was some type of paint, it looks sort of like over-spray. I would think that at NGC/PCGS when performing conservation part of the trick is knowing what they're trying to remove.

BillJones · March 30, 2018 10:54AM

I didn't think it was possible for copper to get rough green corrosion like in the original pics and not have porosity. Apparently so.

It's possible. Sometimes the green stuff on the surface and can be pushed off with a toothpick or the classic tool a rose thorn. After it is pushed off there might be a lighter spot, but those tend to darken over time.

The 1793 Wreath Cent that is my type set was like that. It had some green stuff on the reverse, which was not PVC, that came off with little effort. You can take issue with the rims, but the surfaces are quite smooth. The copper is two toned because of the low quality stuff the mint was working with at the time.

IrishMikey · March 30, 2018 11:17AM

I have achieved good results using Coin Care on copper, but nothing like what you are showing. Sometimes an immersion in olive oil for a month or two will help the color. I agree with others, 66 seems to be a bit optimistic. Perhaps they are marketing their conservation service?

mvs7 · March 30, 2018 11:37AM

Very cool result... thanks for documenting and sharing the whole process.

Insider2 · March 30, 2018 11:45AM

Coin Care is a very good product to apply as the first step when conserving copper. Don't rub the surface when applying it. Additionally, many folks don't like the greasy look that may remain and remove it.

blitzdude · March 30, 2018 12:58PM

Find it interesting that when you pay to have it done they call it conservation, when you do it yourself they label it improperly cleaned. Not saying I'm against either one, all coins should be made nice and shiny.

Insider2 · March 30, 2018 1:04PM

@blitzdude said:
Find it interesting that when you pay to have it done they call it conservation, when you do it yourself they label it improperly cleaned. Not saying I'm against either one, all coins should be made nice and shiny.

Close but no cigar. When ANYONE cleans a coin and it is done in such a way that the coin looks original and unaltered it is acceptable conservation.

Conservation has been done to coins long before anyone needed to pay for it.

Improper cleaning is what most folks do when they try to "conserve" a coin.

blitzdude · March 30, 2018 1:08PM

@Insider2 said:

@blitzdude said:
Find it interesting that when you pay to have it done they call it conservation, when you do it yourself they label it improperly cleaned. Not saying I'm against either one, all coins should be made nice and shiny.

Close but no cigar. When ANYONE cleans a coin and it is done in such a way that the coin looks original and unaltered it is acceptable conservation.

Conservation has been done to coins long before anyone needed to pay for it.

Improper cleaning is what most folks do when they try to "conserve" a coin.

Apples to oranges Mr. Insider2 and again not knocking the coin in the OP the coin cleaner did a wonderful job.

Insider2 · March 30, 2018 1:21PM

Not apples to oranges...just rotten apples...

Sometimes conservation is necessary - "before" and "after" pics

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