1921 Peace Dollars. I didn't get anywhere near the affirmation

Weiss · March 14, 2018 8:19AM

I needed on the image of my '21 Peace in @Paradisefound 's recent 1921 peace dollar thread.

I'm nothing without the approval and jealously of people I've never met in person. Love me.
Got one you'd like to share?

topstuf · March 14, 2018 8:25AM

Oh gosh! I ....LOVE....it, Weiss. I mean LOOOOVVVVEEEE the damn thing.
You should offer it to me for being so effusive and supporting as the second post in your thread.
At least.

topstuf · March 14, 2018 8:27AM

Wait! Is that only a GREEN bean?
Hmmmmm.....

Justacommeman · March 14, 2018 8:27AM

Her hair is almost as nice as yours Weiss

Oh and great coin/holder/ sticker

m

Insider2 · March 14, 2018 8:29AM

Amazing coin. I wonder if there is a reason the reverse is not shown. Is it also amazing?

topstuf · March 14, 2018 8:30AM

@Justacommeman said:
Her hair is almost as nice as yours Weiss

m

Let's not be ridiculous.

CaptHenway · March 14, 2018 8:31AM

Totally frood, Dude!

divecchia · March 14, 2018 8:36AM

Very nice looking Peace.

Donato

RogerB · March 14, 2018 8:36AM

@topstuf said:
Wait! Is that only a GREEN bean?
Hmmmmm.....

It's really gold. The color balance is off on the photo. Plus it's nearly upright in the the holder! Think of the time it took the Elves to do that!

topstuf · March 14, 2018 8:53AM

Elves has left the building.

Wabbit2313 · March 14, 2018 8:59AM

That coin is Sweet!

ChrisH821 · March 14, 2018 9:00AM

That is a nice '21

BuffaloIronTail · March 14, 2018 9:11AM

Nice bubbly cheeky shiny CAC'd beauty.

I'm not going to take the bait by gushing up to you, either.

Pete

Jcld · March 14, 2018 9:17AM

Nice one, lets see the reverse.

Paradisefound · March 14, 2018 9:25AM

I have not seen anything that nice and I think it is an honest 66. I love it!!!

AMRC · March 14, 2018 9:29AM

She is hot.

BryceM · March 14, 2018 9:43AM

OK, I guess.......

For a widget.

Actually, nice strike & nice lusterous look. What’s not to like??

But does it have a reverse?

Wabbit2313 · March 14, 2018 9:49AM

I'll take the fatty all day long before that MS-66 posted above.

1630Boston · March 14, 2018 10:20AM

Connecticoin · March 14, 2018 10:59AM

Weiss, I have been jealous of that coin for 10 years. HAMMERED full strike!!!

COINS MAKE CENTS · March 14, 2018 11:06AM

She's definitely cute!

Weiss · March 14, 2018 11:23AM

Thanks, everyone.

And LOL to whomever flagged that image

Weiss · March 14, 2018 12:23PM

I mentioned to some other collectors that pieces like this take on special importance for box of 20 collectors. For me at least. The pieces in my collection have to be able to convey as much substance as they can because real estate is so valuable in the set.

It's great that it is a 1921 peace--my favorite year of one of my favorite US issues. It's great that it's a beautiful example, with white satin surfaces that really pop against the white slab. But being in a pristine fatty slab, with a CAC sticker, adds extra facets to this gem that a more modern slabbed piece just wouldn't have. It's not just a pretty 1921 peace--it's a piece of our numismatic history going back 30 years. Plus it holds special significance to me, because I bought it from my dealer of about 30 years before he retired a few years back. At the time it was a fortune to me.

Further, and check my math here: Out of about 1600 MS65 and above 1921 Peace dollars graded by PCGS, and another 1370 by NGC (so about 3000 total), CAC has only green bean'd 227 MS65s. Another 37 MS66s, and a single MS67. They've never gold bean'd a 65 or anything higher.

So about a 9% CAC rate? I don't know how many of those are rattlers or fatties. But I suspect it's in the tens rather than the hundreds.

Peace_dollar88 · March 14, 2018 1:10PM

A TRULY STUNNING EXAMPLE!

asheland · March 14, 2018 2:00PM

EPIC coin! I need one of those myself.

clarkbar04 · March 14, 2018 2:28PM

I shared photos of this a while back, it resides in an old no-line fatty 63 holder and just got blessed with a green foil sticker.

RogerB · March 14, 2018 2:32PM

The coin AllCoinsRule posted is not, in my opinion, anywhere close to MS-66. Far too many nicks and dings for that. It's also not especially attractive, which does not alter the "grade" but reduces it's desirability.

As for detail, it's above average, but not exceptional.

Insider2 · March 14, 2018 2:34PM

@Weiss said:
I mentioned to some other collectors that pieces like this take on special importance for box of 20 collectors. For me at least. The pieces in my collection have to be able to convey as much substance as they can because real estate is so valuable in the set.

It's great that it is a 1921 peace--my favorite year of one of my favorite US issues. It's great that it's a beautiful example, with white satin surfaces that really pop against the white slab. But being in a pristine fatty slab, with a CAC sticker, adds extra facets to this gem that a more modern slabbed piece just wouldn't have. It's not just a pretty 1921 peace--it's a piece of our numismatic history going back 30 years. Plus it holds special significance to me, because I bought it from my dealer of about 30 years before he retired a few years back. At the time it was a fortune to me.

Further, and check my math here: Out of about 1600 MS65 and above 1921 Peace dollars graded by PCGS, and another 1370 by NGC (so about 3000 total), CAC has only green bean'd 227 MS65s. Another 37 MS66s, and a single MS67. They've never gold bean'd a 65 or anything higher.

So about a 9% CAC rate? I don't know how many of those are rattlers or fatties. But I suspect it's in the tens rather than the hundreds.

So what does the reverse look like?

Jcld · March 14, 2018 2:37PM

2nd

So what does the reverse look like?

Insider2 · March 14, 2018 2:38PM

@RogerB said:
The coin AllCoinsRule posted is not, in my opinion, anywhere close to MS-66. Far too many nicks and dings for that. It's also not especially attractive, which does not alter the "grade" but reduces it's desirability.

As for detail, it's above average, but not exceptional.

Perhaps the amazing strike has made a 66 grade necessary in order to place a value on the piece over the beautiful (OBVERSE ONLY?) coin the OP posted.

Kove · March 14, 2018 2:40PM

Great coin in a great holder. Actually gets me thinking again about putting together a box of 20.

ACop · March 14, 2018 3:02PM

Plot twist, the reverse is also heads. Magicians coin.

Seriously great strike.

Weiss · March 14, 2018 3:04PM

@Insider2 said:
So what does the reverse look like?

Eagle with Sun rays behind it

RogerB · March 14, 2018 5:12PM

@Insider2 said:

@RogerB said:
The coin AllCoinsRule posted is not, in my opinion, anywhere close to MS-66. Far too many nicks and dings for that. It's also not especially attractive, which does not alter the "grade" but reduces it's desirability.

As for detail, it's above average, but not exceptional.

Perhaps the amazing strike has made a 66 grade necessary in order to place a value on the piece over the beautiful (OBVERSE ONLY?) coin the OP posted.

? Huh? 1) The detail is not amazing - only above average. 2) grading is independent o any presumed 'value.' Doing otherwise creates a blatant conflict of interest.

Weiss · March 14, 2018 6:01PM

Ok, ok. Here's the reverse

topstuf · March 14, 2018 8:49PM

Nice

Insider2 · March 14, 2018 9:09PM

@Weiss said:

@Insider2 said:
So what does the reverse look like?

Eagle with Sun rays behind it

LOL, that's a hard one to top. I've been told that the reverse of a coin only counts for between 35 to 40 percent of the grade and cannot raise it. True or not, now that I've seen it (thanks) I should have NEVER shown the other side. NCS should have fixed that one for you.

@RogerB said:

@Insider2 said:

@RogerB said:
The coin AllCoinsRule posted is not, in my opinion, anywhere close to MS-66. Far too many nicks and dings for that. It's also not especially attractive, which does not alter the "grade" but reduces it's desirability.

As for detail, it's above average, but not exceptional.

Perhaps the amazing strike has made a 66 grade necessary in order to place a value on the piece over the beautiful (OBVERSE ONLY?) coin the OP posted.

? Huh? 1) The detail is not amazing - only above average. 2) grading is independent o any presumed 'value.' Doing otherwise creates a blatant conflict of interest.

As for your point 1) That is a super strike on a 1921, one of the best I've seen. Nevertheless, I prefer the weak obverse and outstanding eye appeal of the OP's coin (ignoring the reverse).

Point 2) Unfortunately, to the detriment of an easy to understand and use - precise and consistent grading system, A COINS VALUE is what "commercial" grading is all about. Therefore a coins value is not independent of its grade. Furthermore, I do not see where a conflict of interest entered this grading discussion. We are writing about grading and not crooks!

dogwood · March 14, 2018 9:43PM

Reverse is great. Love that random Root Beer color toning on a pastel white Peace Dollar.

Walkerfan · March 14, 2018 9:56PM

I like the reverse, as well. Those aren’t carbon spots but rather areas of natural caramel colored toning.

Weiss · March 15, 2018 7:14AM

The 1921 turns 100 years old in 3 years.

This one was slabbed 30 years ago--10 years before NCS even existed. At a time when grading was arguably much tougher than today, this piece got a "65". And in April of 2015, CAC reiterated. Don't get me wrong: I'd have loved the coin to come back with a gold bean. But that has never happened on a 65 or above '21 peace.

The creamy white satin surfaces on the reverse match those on the obverse. The "rootbeer" toning (I like that, @dogwood !) floats above the luster and I LOVE it.

Dipped white MS 1921 peace dollars aren't just readily available. I'd say they are the norm. Finding one with unquestionably original skin is challenging. Front and back, this is a stellar example of what a wholly original 100-year old coin should look like.

ricko · March 15, 2018 7:37AM

That is a real beauty .... I have been looking at 1921 Peace dollars for the past year.... and that one really stands out. Congratulations on a very nice specimen....Cheers, RickO

FullStrike · March 15, 2018 9:44AM

Thanks for posting this beautiful 21 Peace. My spirit is lifted ! I'm now ready to go to my dreadful job with purpose. I need to accumulate enough spare cash to be able to acquire something like that. A 21 that will renew my soul .

RogerB · March 15, 2018 10:05AM

RE: "As for your point 1) That is a super strike on a 1921, one of the best I've seen. Nevertheless, I prefer the weak obverse and outstanding eye appeal of the OP's coin (ignoring the reverse)."

Go read my book on Peace dollars and look at the photos. The detail is only above average.

RE: "Point 2) Unfortunately, to the detriment of an easy to understand and use - precise and consistent grading system, A COINS VALUE is what "commercial" grading is all about. Therefore a coins value is not independent of its grade. Furthermore, I do not see where a conflict of interest entered this grading discussion. We are writing about grading and not crooks!"

Value is immaterial and must have no influence when a coin is being graded. Anything else introduces assumptions about market factors entirely out of the control or knowledge of a grader. Simply put: value and condition are entirely separate, and cannot be objectively assessed simultaneously.

BuffaloIronTail · March 15, 2018 11:38AM

Roger said:

"Value is immaterial and must have no influence when a coin is being graded. Anything else introduces assumptions about market factors entirely out of the control or knowledge of a grader. Simply put: value and condition are entirely separate, and cannot be objectively assessed simultaneously."

Absolutely. This should not be construed in any other way.

Pete

jesbroken · March 15, 2018 11:47AM

That is the most well struck example I have ever seen for a 21 Peace$. Congrats.
Jim

Insider2 · March 15, 2018 1:19PM

@Walkerfan said:
I like the reverse, as well. Those aren’t carbon spots but rather areas of natural caramel colored toning.

I don't care what we call them, IMO, they are detracting. They probably didn't affect the grade as the coin is a gem and the floating, root beer colorization is on the reverse.

@RogerB said:
RE: "As for your point 1) That is a super strike on a 1921, one of the best I've seen. Nevertheless, I prefer the weak obverse and outstanding eye appeal of the OP's coin (ignoring the reverse)."

Go read my book on Peace dollars and look at the photos. The detail is only above average.

Just writing about strike and nothing else, above average, well struck, and super are all degrees of TRY TO FIND ANOTHER with that amount of hair detail.

RE: "Point 2) Unfortunately, to the detriment of an easy to understand and use - precise and consistent grading system, A COINS VALUE is what "commercial" grading is all about. Therefore a coins value is not independent of its grade. Furthermore, I do not see where a conflict of interest entered this grading discussion. We are writing about grading and not crooks!"

Value is immaterial and must have no influence when a coin is being graded. Anything else introduces assumptions about market factors entirely out of the control or knowledge of a grader. Simply put: value and condition are entirely separate, and cannot be objectively assessed simultaneously.

You and I agree 100%. You have just explained one of the requisites I required in the "Technical Grading System we used for internal records and beginning grading classes. Technical grading has no reflection on the commercial coin market or the way coins have been graded for three decades!!!! Fortunately, a while back, the experts at the TPGS's figured out you could still grade a coin impaired in some way as we did in the 1970's when TRUE technical grading was developed. IN THE REAL WORLD, a coin's value is a major factor used by dealers and professional coin graders. I'm taking the time to respond in depth because to deny this fact is posting misinformation. That IS NOT an opinion.

@AllCoinsRule said:
I got it from Legend auctions. I don't and didn't believe their hype, "fully struck .... should have cac'd .... this coin really is an ms66...". If one has to say really then that's certainly a red flag.

But all that being said I cannot find a clearly better struck one in an ms66 or ms65 holder in all current auction archives. (one other at $13K with Heritage is the same or a slight candidate to be better). It's a coin I've loosely been searching for for 15+ years and more concretely searching for for 2 years. It is not fully struck (so I do consider the Legend description a flat out lie) but pretty close. The tone is not an issue, plenty of eye appeal (my photos may not do it justice). And RogerB can correct me if I'm wrong but I think all of the truly exceptional strikes are AU or at least not gem coins.

If someone has a better one, please offer, I'll buy it!

The guy who wrote the book says the strike of your coin is only above average. Therefore, it should be very easy to find many examples with this amount of detail. They should be all over the place.

@BuffaloIronTail said:
Roger said:

"Value is immaterial and must have no influence when a coin is being graded. Anything else introduces assumptions about market factors entirely out of the control or knowledge of a grader. Simply put: value and condition are entirely separate, and cannot be objectively assessed simultaneously."

Absolutely. This should not be construed in any other way.

Pete

See my comments above. What SHOULD BE and WHAT IS are two different things. There SHOULD BE a Santa Clause in Numismatics.

@jesbroken said:
That is the most well struck example I have ever seen for a 21 Peace$. Congrats.

Jim

What do you know? Perhaps you should read the aforementioned book.

BuffaloIronTail · March 15, 2018 1:47PM

Insider2 said: "See my comments above. What SHOULD BE and WHAT IS are two different things. There SHOULD BE a Santa Clause in Numismatics".

Really now. I'm not Scrooge, but I can tell you Santa doesn't hang around here.

Pete

Insider2 · March 15, 2018 2:00PM

@BuffaloIronTail said:
Insider2 said: "See my comments above. What SHOULD BE and WHAT IS are two different things. There SHOULD BE a Santa Clause in Numismatics".

Really now. I'm not Scrooge, but I can tell you Santa doesn't hang around here.

Pete

You made my point!

1921 Peace Dollars. I didn't get anywhere near the affirmation

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