I never quite understood the "auction after the auction" concept. Everything was o.k. until they started that. As in, YOU'RE THE WINNER! Of round one. Now let's play THE SPEED ROUND! As in, Do you have a couple of extra hours to hang around to bid on the coin that you thought you had already won? Do they still do that? I thought it was a disgusting trick. The last two coins I bought from them.....total mix up! O.k. my problem. I'm not quick enough or smart enough. Either way.....NEVER AGAIN!
@david3142 said:
Is it possible that some buyers forget to add the BP when placing their bids? Of course it is. However, how would you have any idea whether the other buyers did that or if they just wanted to pay more than you thought the coin/whatever was worth? You can’t know.
A coin worth say $12K is up for auction at Heritage. The bid is $11K with a bid increment of $1K. Will a bid of $12.2K win the coin for you or must the next bidder win by at least one full increment?
Once it goes live a cut bid of half the usual increment is generally available.
Even that can be substantial.
I have always found the cuts to be reasonable. Last week on their internet auction is was $10 $12 with vig) on a $300 coin. I got beat by another cut bid, but so be it.
Half of a bid increment for a $1K bid increment is substantial in my book.
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@david3142 said:
Is it possible that some buyers forget to add the BP when placing their bids? Of course it is. However, how would you have any idea whether the other buyers did that or if they just wanted to pay more than you thought the coin/whatever was worth? You can’t know.
A coin worth say $12K is up for auction at Heritage. The bid is $11K with a bid increment of $1K. Will a bid of $12.2K win the coin for you or must the next bidder win by at least one full increment?
Once it goes live a cut bid of half the usual increment is generally available.
Even that can be substantial.
I have always found the cuts to be reasonable. Last week on their internet auction is was $10 $12 with vig) on a $300 coin. I got beat by another cut bid, but so be it.
Half of a bid increment for a $1K bid increment is substantial in my book.
5% split bid is a bit rich. Likely affects the flipper more than the collector.
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
@david3142 said:
Is it possible that some buyers forget to add the BP when placing their bids? Of course it is. However, how would you have any idea whether the other buyers did that or if they just wanted to pay more than you thought the coin/whatever was worth? You can’t know.
A coin worth say $12K is up for auction at Heritage. The bid is $11K with a bid increment of $1K. Will a bid of $12.2K win the coin for you or must the next bidder win by at least one full increment?
Once it goes live a cut bid of half the usual increment is generally available.
Even that can be substantial.
I have always found the cuts to be reasonable. Last week on their internet auction is was $10 $12 with vig) on a $300 coin. I got beat by another cut bid, but so be it.
Half of a bid increment for a $1K bid increment is substantial in my book.
5% split bid is a bit rich. Likely affects the flipper more than the collector.
I thought cut bids were by convention half of an increment or half of what an auctioneer wants. I got 50 now 60 would give a cut bid of 55.
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
I was referencing as a buyer specifically on what is quoted above.
As a seller I’ve received 107.5 and 110% of hammer. I would never consign for less.
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Harlequin said:
As a rule, I always thought that auction houses should have a buyers premium of around 8-10% max on the high end. To me 17-20+% is highly inflated!
Welcome to the boards!
What do you consider the high end on the buy side for a commission break?
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't get it. If the buyers premium was 5%, 10% or 20% isn't the amount that you would pay all in the end the same if you started at how much the coin is worth to you and worked backwards? Simplest answer...someone else just wanted it more.
As a couple of people have pointed out, the BP mainly hurts the consignors unless the they are getting more than hammer. If they are getting 105% to 112.5% of hammer, then the bid/ask spread is 7.5% to 15% wide. I will bet that this range has been constant over time while the BP has gone up. I would like to hear opinions of others on this theory. If correct, only high end coins/valuable collections should be sold at auction.
I think what really hurts is some of you churn too many coins. BP doesn't matter if you are just buying to own.
The people who are getting slaughtered are the ones who are just renting the coins . Buy an MS 63 for your set and then want to fill the same spot with a MS64 ? Its a stupid thing to do so you only have yourself to blame if its painful to exit the old coin.
Anyone who thinks they are some sort of wheeler dealer and buys and sells via heritage paying double digit premiums on both ends should find a tv show to binge watch instead.
@bronco2078 said:
I think what really hurts is some of you churn too many coins. BP doesn't matter if you are just buying to own.
The people who are getting slaughtered are the ones who are just renting the coins . Buy an MS 63 for your set and then want to fill the same spot with a MS64 ? Its a stupid thing to do so you only have yourself to blame if its painful to exit the old coin.
Anyone who thinks they are some sort of wheeler dealer and buys and sells via heritage paying double digit premiums on both ends should find a tv show to binge watch instead.
The only way you get the "churn" to work is if you are a dealer who sets up at the shows. When I was dealer I could do it, and it was great. Anything that came out of my collection when I did an upgrade sold within a couple of shows.
When you are collector, you either have to go the auction route or try to sell to dealers at the shows. Either way is tedious. Some dealers won't pay fair price because they think should be buying from "the public" at bargain levels. I think that it's one of the reasons why dealers don't get that many pieces offered to them at the shows. When I was dealer, I'd pay as much to a collector for a coin I needed as I would to another dealer. I never understood this "public thing." If you can buy a coin and can make money on it, who cares who sold it to you? Of course that member of the public had to have a clear title to the item, of course.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
I was referencing as a buyer specifically on what is quoted above.
As a seller I’ve received 107.5 and 110% of hammer. I would never consign for less.
Mark
Wouldn't 100% of hammer be just as good if the juice was 10% instead of 20%? For a $1,000 coin with 10% juice my bid would be $900, with 20% juice my bid would be $800. If the coin hammers at my bid then in the first case you'd net $900, in the second you'd net $880. Obviously, the second case would be better for the house.
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
I was referencing as a buyer specifically on what is quoted above.
As a seller I’ve received 107.5 and 110% of hammer. I would never consign for less.
Mark
Wouldn't 100% of hammer be just as good if the juice was 10% instead of 20%? For a $1,000 coin with 10% juice my bid would be $900, with 20% juice my bid would be $800. If the coin hammers at my bid then in the first case you'd net $900, in the second you'd net $880. Obviously, the second case would be better for the house.
I think that there are enough "yahoos" out there which make the 20% buyers' fee a money maker for the auction houses.
It’s probably psychological, but when I post bids that reflect the 20% break back for the buyers’ fee, it almost feels like that money doesn’t count for anything. Your bids keep getting lower and lower as the buyers’ fees are increased, and it seems like that money is doing nothing for you to win the lot.
After getting blowout in auctions as much as I have or feeling constantly like I have overpaid when I do win a lot, it just gets to you after a while. And, no I am not a cheap bidder. I have used the “Coin Facts” prices and past auction results as guides. I’m not bidding off the Gray Sheet.
Overall I would say that the auction experience is not a positive one; it is a necessary evil sometimes when you can’t get it anywhere else. Given the current lack of material at the major shows, auctions seem like they are only game that is left.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Justacommeman said:
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
I was referencing as a buyer specifically on what is quoted above.
As a seller I’ve received 107.5 and 110% of hammer. I would never consign for less.
Mark
Wouldn't 100% of hammer be just as good if the juice was 10% instead of 20%? For a $1,000 coin with 10% juice my bid would be $900, with 20% juice my bid would be $800. If the coin hammers at my bid then in the first case you'd net $900, in the second you'd net $880. Obviously, the second case would be better for the house.
I think that there are enough "yahoos" out there which make the 20% buyers' fee a money maker for the auction houses.
It’s probably psychological, but when I post bids that reflect the 20% break back for the buyers’ fee, it almost feels like that money doesn’t count for anything. Your bids keep getting lower and lower as the buyers’ fees are increased, and it seems like that money is doing nothing for you to win the lot.
After getting blowout in auctions as much as I have or feeling constantly like I have overpaid when I do win a lot, it just gets to you after a while. And, no I am not a cheap bidder. I have used the “Coin Facts” prices and past auction results as guides. I’m not bidding off the Gray Sheet.
Overall I would say that the auction experience is not a positive one; it is a necessary evil sometimes when you can’t get it anywhere else. Given the current lack of material at the major shows, auctions seem like they are only game that is left.
There is almost always someone who wants it more than you do and has the $$$ to get it. You're right in that if/when you do prevail there is a strong feeling that you've overpaid.
Usurious buyers premiums keep me out from the get go. It’s like paying to shop a Costco only much more. I don’t pay a business for the privilege to shop.
@jonruns said:
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
well, that's a State of NY problem, not a Heritage problem
Perhaps I wasn't clear...for whatever reason Heritage collects sales tax in NY State among others...this makes my Buyers Premium close to 30%...which basically has curtailed my activity with HA...I say this with no emotion or attitude...it is no one's problem...it is just a fact...I don't collect anything so rare or scarce that I can't find it elsewhere...
I live about about five miles from a shopping mall and have a choice of shopping at Home Depot or Lowe's...I view most of their items as generic...if one of the two were consistently 30% more expensive than the other...I would simply avoid the more expensive one...no hard feelings...it is what it is...
What should the limit of these premiums be? I mean, take the argument to an absurd limit. What if Heritage charges 50%, 100%? At some point it doesn't work. I wonder what that might be...Bill is suggesting "enough!" (I agree) so what is it? I'm curious what others think.
I'm ok with paying the BP for unique items because there's no other game in town, but I do recognize that it increases prices overall. It especially hurts for widgets which I've done once but not again.
@jom said:
What should the limit of these premiums be? I mean, take the argument to an absurd limit. What if Heritage charges 50%, 100%? At some point it doesn't work. I wonder what that might be...Bill is suggesting "enough!" (I agree) so what is it? I'm curious what others think.
jom
This is an interesting and not uncomplicated game theory problem, but in practice, it might be as simple as this: If you're an auction company, you see trends in your sales and profits and you adjust your business practices accordingly. Offering consignors more than hammer price must be a great tool to attract consignments, and profitability depends on consignment volume of high value lots. In other words, the business focus must be competing with other auction companies for the best consignments. An auction company would see the impact in their consignments, prices realized, and net profit after raising buyer's commissions from 15% to 17.5% to 20% The current prevalence of 20% buyer's commissions - and the trend of increasing buyer's commissions - is an indication that, so far, it's a profitable strategy. We wouldn't be seeing increasing buyer's commissions if it wasn't profitable. So, the obvious answer to the question is that if 20% is more profitable than 17.5%, we can expect another incremental increase in the future. Or, put another way, as soon as Bill stops bidding in auctions, buyer's commissions will go back down to 10%
I can only say this. I had a lot more fun at the big auctions when the buyers' fee was 15%. Since it has started to rise, auctions have gone south for me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@jonruns said:
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
well, that's a State of NY problem, not a Heritage problem
Perhaps I wasn't clear...for whatever reason Heritage collects sales tax in NY State among others...this makes my Buyers Premium close to 30%...which basically has curtailed my activity with HA...I say this with no emotion or attitude...it is no one's problem...it is just a fact...I don't collect anything so rare or scarce that I can't find it elsewhere...
I live about about five miles from a shopping mall and have a choice of shopping at Home Depot or Lowe's...I view most of their items as generic...if one of the two were consistently 30% more expensive than the other...I would simply avoid the more expensive one...no hard feelings...it is what it is...
The 8% sales tax is instituted by NY state. That would make the coins 8% more expensive to you (or me) as residents of NY State. HOWEVER, since everyone pays the 20% (plus shipping) it is NOT accurate to say that makes the coins 20% more expensive to you or anyone else.
If it's $100 coin, it sells for $83-ish hammer + 20% on Heritage for $89-ish + 12.5% on Great Collections and for $100 on eBay. Costs you $100 either way....unless you're an idiot and you bid $100 everywhere just cuz and then you could pay more. But you have to have another idiot bid you up, otherwise your $100 bid just ends up at $85 on Heritage for a couple extra bucks over the $100 on eBay.
@david3142 said:
Is it possible that some buyers forget to add the BP when placing their bids? Of course it is. However, how would you have any idea whether the other buyers did that or if they just wanted to pay more than you thought the coin/whatever was worth? You can’t know.
A coin worth say $12K is up for auction at Heritage. The bid is $11K with a bid increment of $1K. Will a bid of $12.2K win the coin for you or must the next bidder win by at least one full increment?
Once it goes live a cut bid of half the usual increment is generally available.
Even that can be substantial.
I have always found the cuts to be reasonable. Last week on their internet auction is was $10 $12 with vig) on a $300 coin. I got beat by another cut bid, but so be it.
Half of a bid increment for a $1K bid increment is substantial in my book.
5% split bid is a bit rich. Likely affects the flipper more than the collector.
I thought cut bids were by convention half of an increment or half of what an auctioneer wants. I got 50 now 60 would give a cut bid of 55.
I am n
@jom said:
What should the limit of these premiums be? I mean, take the argument to an absurd limit. What if Heritage charges 50%, 100%? At some point it doesn't work. I wonder what that might be...Bill is suggesting "enough!" (I agree) so what is it? I'm curious what others think.
jom
The 100% buyer fee is a bit easier than 17.5% was. Just cut your max price in half.
@jom said:
What should the limit of these premiums be? I mean, take the argument to an absurd limit. What if Heritage charges 50%, 100%? At some point it doesn't work. I wonder what that might be...Bill is suggesting "enough!" (I agree) so what is it? I'm curious what others think.
jom
at some point it doesn't work for the CONSIGNOR. It always works for the buyer. I really don't care if Heritage has 100% premium. I would bid $50 to pay $100. If they had a 0% premium, I would bid $100 to pay $100. The difference is what the consignor would see. In the first instance, the consignor sees $45 (10% consignors fee) and $90 in the second case. Either way, I paid $100.
In fact, what Heritage would do with the 100% buyers premium is bribe people for better coins. You would get NO low end coins on Heritage, because who wants to see $45 on your $100 coin. But if you have $100,000 coin, they would give you the full $100,000 - no buyers of sellers premium in all likelihood.
What ends up happening is that inexpensive widgets migrate to the low premium sites (eBay is lowest, Great Collections 2nd lowest) and the expensive coins migrate to the moneyed players who can afford to bribe you to play with them.
I'm not sure why the buyers who are complaining here don't understand that. I've bought far more coins from Heritage this year than Great Collections even though I'm bidding on the same type of coins. They end up going more cheaply on Heritage for some reason - maybe because people really can't do the math and stay away. LOL
@jonruns said:
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
well, that's a State of NY problem, not a Heritage problem
Perhaps I wasn't clear...for whatever reason Heritage collects sales tax in NY State among others...this makes my Buyers Premium close to 30%...which basically has curtailed my activity with HA...I say this with no emotion or attitude...it is no one's problem...it is just a fact...I don't collect anything so rare or scarce that I can't find it elsewhere...
I live about about five miles from a shopping mall and have a choice of shopping at Home Depot or Lowe's...I view most of their items as generic...if one of the two were consistently 30% more expensive than the other...I would simply avoid the more expensive one...no hard feelings...it is what it is...
The 8% sales tax is instituted by NY state. That would make the coins 8% more expensive to you (or me) as residents of NY State. HOWEVER, since everyone pays the 20% (plus shipping) it is NOT accurate to say that makes the coins 20% more expensive to you or anyone else.
If it's $100 coin, it sells for $83-ish hammer + 20% on Heritage for $89-ish + 12.5% on Great Collections and for $100 on eBay. Costs you $100 either way....unless you're an idiot and you bid $100 everywhere just cuz and then you could pay more. But you have to have another idiot bid you up, otherwise your $100 bid just ends up at $85 on Heritage for a couple extra bucks over the $100 on eBay.
What's the practical difference between getting 100% of hammer with 10% BP or 110% of hammer with 20% BP besides psychological?
@jonruns said:
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
What's the practical difference between getting 100% of hammer with 10% BP or 110% of hammer with 20% BP besides psychological?
Again, we're back to the consignor not the buyer. Nonetheless, I'll answer the question. The person with the $100 coin MIGHT get 100% of hammer. But the person with the $10,000 coin gets 110+% of the hammer. They use the higher BP to raise money to bribe people to consign the better coins.
@jonruns said:
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
What's the practical difference between getting 100% of hammer with 10% BP or 110% of hammer with 20% BP besides psychological?
Again, we're back to the consignor not the buyer. Nonetheless, I'll answer the question. The person with the $100 coin MIGHT get 100% of hammer. But the person with the $10,000 coin gets 110+% of the hammer. They use the higher BP to raise money to bribe people to consign the better coins.
A consignor with a large enough consignment to negotiate terms would be better server to take 100% of hammer with lower juice than he would be to take 110% with higher juice. He'd need 1.125% of hammer to make it a wash. A $100 consignor is going to get screwed no matter what.
I want to know what level of consignment you need to get 110% of the hammer at Heritage. I have received 105%-107.5% of hammer elsewhere, but Heritage was not willing to discuss this.
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
@specialist said:
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
Good to know. I only got boiler plate when discussing a high volume consignment with one of the biggies some years ago.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I want to know what level of consignment you need to get 110% of the hammer at Heritage. I have received 105%-107.5% of hammer elsewhere, but Heritage was not willing to discuss this.
@specialist said:
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
I think it important to point out that auction houses do not "net" the buyer's premiums that they charge. Out of the buyer's premiums (and less seller rebates that might apply) they have the burden of significant promotional costs, like catalogs, and staff to manage the auction and consignments. But at the end of the day, these costs are paid (indirectly) by the consignor.
When assembling a collection a major consideration should be the transactional costs of selling it. Selling stocks is so inexpensive in comparison, trading coins for stocks might be a great way out........
Comments
I never quite understood the "auction after the auction" concept. Everything was o.k. until they started that. As in, YOU'RE THE WINNER! Of round one. Now let's play THE SPEED ROUND! As in, Do you have a couple of extra hours to hang around to bid on the coin that you thought you had already won? Do they still do that? I thought it was a disgusting trick. The last two coins I bought from them.....total mix up! O.k. my problem. I'm not quick enough or smart enough. Either way.....NEVER AGAIN!
Perhaps the entire point of adding the expenses is to get rid of all BUT the super dupers.
Half of a bid increment for a $1K bid increment is substantial in my book.
Usually I just set all my max bids pre auction no matter the auction. I know exactly what it will cost me. If it comes in under great. If it comes in at my max bid great. If I get outbid great. No surprises.
I've consigned in two auctions. Both I got less then a 10% spread between the buyer and sellers commission. ( I got a huge chunk of the buyers commission). For the amount of marketing they did as well as using their venue and putting 10's of thousands sets of eyes on my stuff I thought it a good deal
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Two words.......Great Collections. Three words........Fast, Fair, and Friendly!
Ha, Peon
Tis but 1/2 a crumb.
5% split bid is a bit rich. Likely affects the flipper more than the collector.
Smart man. That's the way to do it.
I thought cut bids were by convention half of an increment or half of what an auctioneer wants. I got 50 now 60 would give a cut bid of 55.
I wasn't exactly thrilled with what some of my last consignment brought there.
The great thing is it works exactly the same whether the buying commissions are 0, 10, 15, 17.5, 20 or 30%
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So what did they whack you for seller's commish? Or was your consignment large enough for them to waive it?
I was referencing as a buyer specifically on what is quoted above.
As a seller I’ve received 107.5 and 110% of hammer. I would never consign for less.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As a rule, I always thought that auction houses should have a buyers premium of around 8-10% max on the high end. To me 17-20+% is highly inflated!
🇺🇸 Harlequin
harlequinnumismatic@gmail.com
Welcome to the boards!
What do you consider the high end on the buy side for a commission break?
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't get it. If the buyers premium was 5%, 10% or 20% isn't the amount that you would pay all in the end the same if you started at how much the coin is worth to you and worked backwards? Simplest answer...someone else just wanted it more.
Latin American Collection
As a couple of people have pointed out, the BP mainly hurts the consignors unless the they are getting more than hammer. If they are getting 105% to 112.5% of hammer, then the bid/ask spread is 7.5% to 15% wide. I will bet that this range has been constant over time while the BP has gone up. I would like to hear opinions of others on this theory. If correct, only high end coins/valuable collections should be sold at auction.
I think what really hurts is some of you churn too many coins. BP doesn't matter if you are just buying to own.
The people who are getting slaughtered are the ones who are just renting the coins . Buy an MS 63 for your set and then want to fill the same spot with a MS64 ? Its a stupid thing to do so you only have yourself to blame if its painful to exit the old coin.
Anyone who thinks they are some sort of wheeler dealer and buys and sells via heritage paying double digit premiums on both ends should find a tv show to binge watch instead.
The only way you get the "churn" to work is if you are a dealer who sets up at the shows. When I was dealer I could do it, and it was great. Anything that came out of my collection when I did an upgrade sold within a couple of shows.
When you are collector, you either have to go the auction route or try to sell to dealers at the shows. Either way is tedious. Some dealers won't pay fair price because they think should be buying from "the public" at bargain levels. I think that it's one of the reasons why dealers don't get that many pieces offered to them at the shows. When I was dealer, I'd pay as much to a collector for a coin I needed as I would to another dealer. I never understood this "public thing." If you can buy a coin and can make money on it, who cares who sold it to you? Of course that member of the public had to have a clear title to the item, of course.
Wouldn't 100% of hammer be just as good if the juice was 10% instead of 20%? For a $1,000 coin with 10% juice my bid would be $900, with 20% juice my bid would be $800. If the coin hammers at my bid then in the first case you'd net $900, in the second you'd net $880. Obviously, the second case would be better for the house.
I think that there are enough "yahoos" out there which make the 20% buyers' fee a money maker for the auction houses.
It’s probably psychological, but when I post bids that reflect the 20% break back for the buyers’ fee, it almost feels like that money doesn’t count for anything. Your bids keep getting lower and lower as the buyers’ fees are increased, and it seems like that money is doing nothing for you to win the lot.
After getting blowout in auctions as much as I have or feeling constantly like I have overpaid when I do win a lot, it just gets to you after a while. And, no I am not a cheap bidder. I have used the “Coin Facts” prices and past auction results as guides. I’m not bidding off the Gray Sheet.
Overall I would say that the auction experience is not a positive one; it is a necessary evil sometimes when you can’t get it anywhere else. Given the current lack of material at the major shows, auctions seem like they are only game that is left.
it almost feels like that money doesn’t count for anything.
Your bids keep getting lower and lower as the buyers’ fees are increased, and it seems like that money is doing nothing for you to win the lot.
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plus..
Given the current lack of material at the major shows, auctions seem like they are only game that is left.
Makes this a post that validates my OP. ( spacing edited by me to approximate my feelings exactly.)
There is almost always someone who wants it more than you do and has the $$$ to get it. You're right in that if/when you do prevail there is a strong feeling that you've overpaid.
The "market" - that is, buyers and consignors, will determine viability.
Not to put too fine a point on it but , most collectors I know are yahoos.
Don't forget the 8.25% sales tax if you live in NY...with shipping I'm looking at +30% on top of my bid...
And CA too. I stopped buying from them years ago and never looked back.
I don’t even look at the site anymore .
EAC 6024
Usurious buyers premiums keep me out from the get go. It’s like paying to shop a Costco only much more. I don’t pay a business for the privilege to shop.
well, that's a State of NY problem, not a Heritage problem
Some people seem to find reasons to be grumpy
Latin American Collection
Perhaps I wasn't clear...for whatever reason Heritage collects sales tax in NY State among others...this makes my Buyers Premium close to 30%...which basically has curtailed my activity with HA...I say this with no emotion or attitude...it is no one's problem...it is just a fact...I don't collect anything so rare or scarce that I can't find it elsewhere...
I live about about five miles from a shopping mall and have a choice of shopping at Home Depot or Lowe's...I view most of their items as generic...if one of the two were consistently 30% more expensive than the other...I would simply avoid the more expensive one...no hard feelings...it is what it is...
What should the limit of these premiums be? I mean, take the argument to an absurd limit. What if Heritage charges 50%, 100%? At some point it doesn't work. I wonder what that might be...Bill is suggesting "enough!" (I agree) so what is it? I'm curious what others think.
jom
Oh you just SHUT UP !!!
And...... GET OFF MY LAWN !!!
I'm ok with paying the BP for unique items because there's no other game in town, but I do recognize that it increases prices overall. It especially hurts for widgets which I've done once but not again.
This is an interesting and not uncomplicated game theory problem, but in practice, it might be as simple as this: If you're an auction company, you see trends in your sales and profits and you adjust your business practices accordingly. Offering consignors more than hammer price must be a great tool to attract consignments, and profitability depends on consignment volume of high value lots. In other words, the business focus must be competing with other auction companies for the best consignments. An auction company would see the impact in their consignments, prices realized, and net profit after raising buyer's commissions from 15% to 17.5% to 20% The current prevalence of 20% buyer's commissions - and the trend of increasing buyer's commissions - is an indication that, so far, it's a profitable strategy. We wouldn't be seeing increasing buyer's commissions if it wasn't profitable. So, the obvious answer to the question is that if 20% is more profitable than 17.5%, we can expect another incremental increase in the future. Or, put another way, as soon as Bill stops bidding in auctions, buyer's commissions will go back down to 10%
I can only say this. I had a lot more fun at the big auctions when the buyers' fee was 15%. Since it has started to rise, auctions have gone south for me.
The 8% sales tax is instituted by NY state. That would make the coins 8% more expensive to you (or me) as residents of NY State. HOWEVER, since everyone pays the 20% (plus shipping) it is NOT accurate to say that makes the coins 20% more expensive to you or anyone else.
If it's $100 coin, it sells for $83-ish hammer + 20% on Heritage for $89-ish + 12.5% on Great Collections and for $100 on eBay. Costs you $100 either way....unless you're an idiot and you bid $100 everywhere just cuz and then you could pay more. But you have to have another idiot bid you up, otherwise your $100 bid just ends up at $85 on Heritage for a couple extra bucks over the $100 on eBay.
I am n
The 100% buyer fee is a bit easier than 17.5% was. Just cut your max price in half.
at some point it doesn't work for the CONSIGNOR. It always works for the buyer. I really don't care if Heritage has 100% premium. I would bid $50 to pay $100. If they had a 0% premium, I would bid $100 to pay $100. The difference is what the consignor would see. In the first instance, the consignor sees $45 (10% consignors fee) and $90 in the second case. Either way, I paid $100.
In fact, what Heritage would do with the 100% buyers premium is bribe people for better coins. You would get NO low end coins on Heritage, because who wants to see $45 on your $100 coin. But if you have $100,000 coin, they would give you the full $100,000 - no buyers of sellers premium in all likelihood.
What ends up happening is that inexpensive widgets migrate to the low premium sites (eBay is lowest, Great Collections 2nd lowest) and the expensive coins migrate to the moneyed players who can afford to bribe you to play with them.
I'm not sure why the buyers who are complaining here don't understand that. I've bought far more coins from Heritage this year than Great Collections even though I'm bidding on the same type of coins. They end up going more cheaply on Heritage for some reason - maybe because people really can't do the math and stay away. LOL
What's the practical difference between getting 100% of hammer with 10% BP or 110% of hammer with 20% BP besides psychological?
Just stop looking to get coins where the premium makes it stupid.
Again, we're back to the consignor not the buyer. Nonetheless, I'll answer the question. The person with the $100 coin MIGHT get 100% of hammer. But the person with the $10,000 coin gets 110+% of the hammer. They use the higher BP to raise money to bribe people to consign the better coins.
A consignor with a large enough consignment to negotiate terms would be better server to take 100% of hammer with lower juice than he would be to take 110% with higher juice. He'd need 1.125% of hammer to make it a wash. A $100 consignor is going to get screwed no matter what.
I want to know what level of consignment you need to get 110% of the hammer at Heritage. I have received 105%-107.5% of hammer elsewhere, but Heritage was not willing to discuss this.
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
Good to know. I only got boiler plate when discussing a high volume consignment with one of the biggies some years ago.
At least $50K IIRC. Ask Mitch aka Wondercoin.
Wh-wh-why that's shocking.
Shocking, I tell you!
I think it important to point out that auction houses do not "net" the buyer's premiums that they charge. Out of the buyer's premiums (and less seller rebates that might apply) they have the burden of significant promotional costs, like catalogs, and staff to manage the auction and consignments. But at the end of the day, these costs are paid (indirectly) by the consignor.
When assembling a collection a major consideration should be the transactional costs of selling it. Selling stocks is so inexpensive in comparison, trading coins for stocks might be a great way out........
OINK