@specialist said:
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
Good to know. I only got boiler plate when discussing a high volume consignment with one of the biggies some years ago.
One of the justifications for the move to 20% last year was the ability to raise the bonus. I imagine the 105-107.5% is now higher
I will not buy or sell through Heritage again. That 20% bp plus what they get from the seller is far to high.
What I have noticed on what coins I like is the quality coins are not showing up and the generic material is all that is there foe the most part. I like New Orleans gold and the two most common dates show with regularity but the more rare nice coins are either being traded without Heritage or fewer are selling now that the economy is beck in a solid growth mode, or both.
@specialist said:
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
Good to know. I only got boiler plate when discussing a high volume consignment with one of the biggies some years ago.
I thought it was against the law for an auction house to pay a buyers fee or recduce it for “special clients”
All buyers pay the same. Sellers is another matter
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@specialist said:
safe to assume six figures unreserved gets you 110%
and FYI: I have seen this happen on really expensive super rare stuff-the auction will actually PAY the buyer a point or two. It is an extremely rare happening, but it does.
Good to know. I only got boiler plate when discussing a high volume consignment with one of the biggies some years ago.
One of the justifications for the move to 20% last year was the ability to raise the bonus. I imagine the 105-107.5% is now higher
When you move from 17.5% to 20% how much can you afford to move the 105-107.5% unless that was the reason for doing so in the first place?
Maybe they found that they had to sweeten the "grease" pot to attract consignors. IMO a 1% bump in the grease isn't much.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
I think it important to point out that auction houses do not "net" the buyer's premiums that they charge. Out of the buyer's premiums (and less seller rebates that might apply) they have the burden of significant promotional costs, like catalogs, and staff to manage the auction and consignments. But at the end of the day, these costs are paid (indirectly) by the consignor.
When assembling a collection a major consideration should be the transactional costs of selling it. Selling stocks is so inexpensive in comparison, trading coins for stocks might be a great way out........
OINK
Of course they don't "net" the BP any more than a service station that buys gasoline for $2.00 per gallon and sells it for $2.60 nets the $0.60 I'm not aware of any business that "nets" their markup. Of course the consignor pays for the cost of the house's expenses since the consignor is the one who contracts for the service. Technically the buyer pays the fee since it's added to his invoice and if he bids right he doesn't overpay. The consignor absorbs the cost of the fee since the presence of the fee usually reduces what the buyer is willing to bid.
@AMRC said:
I will never understand threads like this. BP is part of the purchase price, there is no other price. A coin is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it.
But they're not paying for the coin. They're paying 20% to an auction company for the privilege of being allowed to buy a coin from them.
We can all shift the related costs around in any fashion we like to fit our perspective, but in the end the seller isn't realizing a piece of that 20%, in fact most are paying the sellers fee too.
In the vast majority of cases the buyer's not going to get that 20% back to offset his own seller fees. There are exceptions of course.
Why is there even such a premise? Maybe I am not following you, but (and my experience is based on a capitalistic system and ideology and I admit some people may prefer other means of distribution of goods and services other than profit). That is the "grease of business" if you will. For the system to work, someone has to make money either selling it to you, OR buying it from you. That is what this market is.
You may argue 20% is too much, and that is your propagative, but that is merely an opinion. If the market is functioning at these levels, and you think you have a better business idea? Let's do it! But I am just not sure that is the case? eBay has some of the lowest auction fees, yet Heritage is still doing well. It is all about the "prices realized" factor and that only seems to play well with the greater than 2 Standard Deviation rarities.
Sorry for being so long winded, I know you just wanted to vent, but heck I am always interested in ideas that can let me do something cheaper AND add greater value for the customers.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@Wabbit2313 said:
I want to know what level of consignment you need to get 110% of the hammer at Heritage. I have received 105%-107.5% of hammer elsewhere, but Heritage was not willing to discuss this.
unless you know the secret handshake we can't even discuss it .
One would have assumed that by 2018 the internet would have killed off most of these stupid business models but obviously we still have a ways to go. Grifters gotta grift right?
The joe blow first time off the street consignor gets 90% of hammer. then after they screw Joe over for a year or two he gets promoted up to 95% whoopee , then 100% then 105% and on it goes . All the clowns that think they are paid up members of the old boys network don't realize there is a circle of bozos within theirs that that gets a higher % of hammer. Nobody wants to speak up and compare notes because they think are they are getting the best deal .
blah blah blah cut bid sales tax shipping fee handling fee credit card usage fee gibberish all of it
hey you know what else is great? AmWay , I'm an emerald level AmWay rep can I interest you in a 55 gallon drum of unleaded gasoline? You can bury it in your backyard I'll throw in a free hand pump if you buy ten drums Or maybe a truckload of toilet paper? its 2 cents cheaper per roll when you buy it that way
I understand the argument that a buyer just does a little math and it makes no real difference..... but that's only really true if you plan on buying and never selling.
As a potential buyer, it makes sense to consider the liquidity of my potential purchases. If things go south or you tire of the hobby, one of the best ways out is to consign to an auction house. If the buyer's premium goes up, the transaction cost to sell also goes way up. Said another way, it's easier to buy coins than to sell coins. If it's a little harder to sell than buy, no big deal. When it's MUCH harder to sell than buy, I'm less enthusiastic about bidding.
Yes, I know you can negotiate everything, but the tactic smacks of department store "sales" on permanently overpriced items. I'm not all that interested in playing games, especially when the playing field is rigged to favor the high-volume sellers.
I was a big Heritage fanboy a few years ago. Now, if I needed to sell, I'm pretty sure I'd look other places first.
I had fun at auctions when the buyers' fee was 15%. Now not so much.
I look at some of the items in the David Frent political auction and say to myself, "Wow, that's neat." Then I look at the opening and current bids, add the 25% buyers' fee and have to say, "Forget it!" Some of the opening minimum bids are higher than the total realized bids in other auctions without adding the buyers' fee.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I also had the OP coin on my watch list and see that someone ...HAS... put in a topping bid to where I would not even have LOOKED at it.
Ah well, I consider it a burial for the "winning" bidder.
@bestday said:
Heritage at 20% juice .....on top of some state taxes... makes heritage coin buyers under water for years
Depends. I buy Heritage coins all the time and resell them, often in a matter of weeks or months. [I am tax exempt.] I spent 5 grand at the Baltimore spring show last year in a Heritage auction and none of the 5 coins lasted until September.
Except for the super primo coins I see very little difference in the 2.5% rise in the Heritage vig.
In the end the hammer price will reflect the actual value.
@bestday said:
Heritage at 20% juice .....on top of some state taxes... makes heritage coin buyers under water for years
Depends. I buy Heritage coins all the time and resell them, often in a matter of weeks or months. [I am tax exempt.] I spent 5 grand at the Baltimore spring show last year in a Heritage auction and none of the 5 coins lasted until September.
As a dealer you can get this model to work for a couple of reasons.
First, unlike most collectors, you are open to buying any lot, that is within your area of expertise, that is selling at a feasible price. Collectors are usually concentrating in a particular area, and that can trap you into bidding on coins that are currently “hot” or popular.
Second, as a dealer, you are doing the networking that provides you with the opportunities to sell in interested parties who don’t participate in auctions, or perhaps, don’t trust their expertise to avoid making mistakes in public sales. As I retired dealer, I know how powerful this aspect of the market can be.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
One of the justifications for the move to 20% last year was the ability to raise the bonus. I imagine the 105-107.5% is now higher
I will not buy or sell through Heritage again. That 20% bp plus what they get from the seller is far to high.
What I have noticed on what coins I like is the quality coins are not showing up and the generic material is all that is there foe the most part. I like New Orleans gold and the two most common dates show with regularity but the more rare nice coins are either being traded without Heritage or fewer are selling now that the economy is beck in a solid growth mode, or both.
All buyers pay the same. Sellers is another matter
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When you move from 17.5% to 20% how much can you afford to move the 105-107.5% unless that was the reason for doing so in the first place?
Maybe they found that they had to sweeten the "grease" pot to attract consignors. IMO a 1% bump in the grease isn't much.
Of course they don't "net" the BP any more than a service station that buys gasoline for $2.00 per gallon and sells it for $2.60 nets the $0.60 I'm not aware of any business that "nets" their markup. Of course the consignor pays for the cost of the house's expenses since the consignor is the one who contracts for the service. Technically the buyer pays the fee since it's added to his invoice and if he bids right he doesn't overpay. The consignor absorbs the cost of the fee since the presence of the fee usually reduces what the buyer is willing to bid.
Why is there even such a premise? Maybe I am not following you, but (and my experience is based on a capitalistic system and ideology and I admit some people may prefer other means of distribution of goods and services other than profit). That is the "grease of business" if you will. For the system to work, someone has to make money either selling it to you, OR buying it from you. That is what this market is.
You may argue 20% is too much, and that is your propagative, but that is merely an opinion. If the market is functioning at these levels, and you think you have a better business idea? Let's do it! But I am just not sure that is the case? eBay has some of the lowest auction fees, yet Heritage is still doing well. It is all about the "prices realized" factor and that only seems to play well with the greater than 2 Standard Deviation rarities.
Sorry for being so long winded, I know you just wanted to vent, but heck I am always interested in ideas that can let me do something cheaper AND add greater value for the customers.
Proprogatives can be tricky.
Only when Heritage starts to lose business,,, will they act.. otherwise if you don't like heritage 's terms...They are saying move on
unless you know the secret handshake we can't even discuss it .
One would have assumed that by 2018 the internet would have killed off most of these stupid business models but obviously we still have a ways to go. Grifters gotta grift right?
The joe blow first time off the street consignor gets 90% of hammer. then after they screw Joe over for a year or two he gets promoted up to 95% whoopee , then 100% then 105% and on it goes . All the clowns that think they are paid up members of the old boys network don't realize there is a circle of bozos within theirs that that gets a higher % of hammer. Nobody wants to speak up and compare notes because they think are they are getting the best deal
.
blah blah blah cut bid sales tax shipping fee handling fee credit card usage fee
gibberish all of it
hey you know what else is great? AmWay , I'm an emerald level AmWay rep can I interest you in a 55 gallon drum of unleaded gasoline? You can bury it in your backyard I'll throw in a free hand pump if you buy ten drums Or maybe a truckload of toilet paper? its 2 cents cheaper per roll when you buy it that way
So a bid of $3200 and an ask of $4000 is a healthy market? Is it really that illiquid?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I was the underbidder on one coin tonight. The winner must not have realized he had to pay 20% on top of the hammer!
I was the underbidder on this coin:
but I already own this one:
and this one:
Interested to know who would pay more........
OINK
I understand the argument that a buyer just does a little math and it makes no real difference..... but that's only really true if you plan on buying and never selling.
As a potential buyer, it makes sense to consider the liquidity of my potential purchases. If things go south or you tire of the hobby, one of the best ways out is to consign to an auction house. If the buyer's premium goes up, the transaction cost to sell also goes way up. Said another way, it's easier to buy coins than to sell coins. If it's a little harder to sell than buy, no big deal. When it's MUCH harder to sell than buy, I'm less enthusiastic about bidding.
Yes, I know you can negotiate everything, but the tactic smacks of department store "sales" on permanently overpriced items. I'm not all that interested in playing games, especially when the playing field is rigged to favor the high-volume sellers.
I was a big Heritage fanboy a few years ago. Now, if I needed to sell, I'm pretty sure I'd look other places first.
I had fun at auctions when the buyers' fee was 15%. Now not so much.
I look at some of the items in the David Frent political auction and say to myself, "Wow, that's neat." Then I look at the opening and current bids, add the 25% buyers' fee and have to say, "Forget it!" Some of the opening minimum bids are higher than the total realized bids in other auctions without adding the buyers' fee.
"Less fun" seems to be a recurring theme.
That isn't a good thing.
Let's hope some wheels are turning.
Heritage at 20% juice .....on top of some state taxes... makes heritage coin buyers under water for years
I also had the OP coin on my watch list and see that someone ...HAS... put in a topping bid to where I would not even have LOOKED at it.
Ah well, I consider it a burial for the "winning" bidder.
Depends. I buy Heritage coins all the time and resell them, often in a matter of weeks or months. [I am tax exempt.] I spent 5 grand at the Baltimore spring show last year in a Heritage auction and none of the 5 coins lasted until September.
Amazon likes to destroy industries that operate on 5% margins.......hmmmmm.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Except for the super primo coins I see very little difference in the 2.5% rise in the Heritage vig.
In the end the hammer price will reflect the actual value.
As a dealer you can get this model to work for a couple of reasons.
First, unlike most collectors, you are open to buying any lot, that is within your area of expertise, that is selling at a feasible price. Collectors are usually concentrating in a particular area, and that can trap you into bidding on coins that are currently “hot” or popular.
Second, as a dealer, you are doing the networking that provides you with the opportunities to sell in interested parties who don’t participate in auctions, or perhaps, don’t trust their expertise to avoid making mistakes in public sales. As I retired dealer, I know how powerful this aspect of the market can be.