Dear Heritage
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
Your buyer premium just made one of my watched coins available to someone else. 
It's worth the 3200 bid but not the more than 4 grand it would cost me to get it.
35
Comments
I'd hit the agree button a thousand times if I could.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Do not most bidder realize that they will pay hammer plus 20%, that being their cost for the coin? The 20% buyer's premium would be more tp the account of the consignors as bidders will discount their bids based upon the added buyer's premium. I think the buyer's premium is more an issue for consignors than bidders.
OINK
disagree. Just because that coin is worth $4000 to someone other than you has nothing to do with the Heritage premium.
You haven't even tallied the shipping cost.
I believe I noted that it will be available to a much more appreciative home.
Kept me from bidding a few times !!!
Yes, but you are blaming the buyer's premium. In fact, even if there were a zero premium, the coin still might be at $4000. [Unless 2 people are too dumb to calculate the 20% in their bids.]
You are overlooking the sellers premium!
You are overlooking the sellers premium!
Most likely the seller negotiated at least a 0% sellers' premium or even a portion of the buyers' premium. (Unless you have inside info).
In all my consignments to Heritage, I've never paid any sellers' premium.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Exactly. Buyer’s premiums really only have a negative effect on a seller.
All buyers pay the same premium - no buyer has an advantage over another.
The original post is more of a case of “Dear Other Bidder, your higher bid than mine has made a coin I wanted available to you.”
Both sides have an argument here.
There is a level of truth to the contention that higher buyers’ fees hurt consigners more than they do bidders because they lower hammer prices. Yes, there are many bidders who figure out what they want to pay for a lot and then divide that number by 1.2 in their heads or on their calculators. That does make the hammer prices lower. Obviously consigners need to receive something over 100% of the hammer price to make up for the increases in the buyers' fee.
BUT, there are also “yahoos” who don’t seem to pay any attention to buyers’ premium and bid if it were not there.
As some of you know, I also collect political items. Heritage is in that business too, and their buyers’ premium for political pieces is 25%. That surcharge has pretty much ruined most chances for me to acquire items from the Heritage auctions. Their competition has buyers’ fees that range from 0 to 15% when you pay by check. I have found that I can buy many items for less money from them than at Heritage. There are some Heritage political items customers who seem to bid as if there is no buyers’ fee at all.
Currently Heritage is selling the David Frent collection. There are many wonderful items in that sale, but I know from experience that I’ll be like a kid in candy store who isn’t tall enough to look over the counter. Almost everything will sell for prices that will higher than they will be most anywhere else because of their buyers’ fee.
My message to Heritage and Stacks’ is that you people have gotten together and have pushed to buyers’ fee to the limit. You have made me reconsider who I should use for an auctioneer when it comes time to sell my holdings, and you have definitely lowered my participation in your auctions because of your buyers’ fees. If you raise it again, there is good chance that I will have even less to do with you. Enough is enough.
Not quite true. Buyers can get a 1% discount on the realized price when they skip cc/paypal and transfer funds directly. At Great Collections the discount is even more significant.
But you overlook the fact that higher buyer's have more than likely decreased the amount you get.
REALLY? BUT, there are also “yahoos” who don’t seem to pay any attention to buyers’ premium and bid if it were not there.
When you have coins like the $10 Lib Collection in Heritage (see the 1840 in AU 55 which is at a crazy $28G HAMMER already), those coins will sell crazy any way. People do not understand, auctions really are for better coins. Put commoner or lesser quality coins in and its a bad deal usually.
I highly doubt the guys who will bid on the $10 1897O PCGS MS67 CAC and pay a record price for this coin are yahoos.
Can't say the 20% has hurt anyone so far.
Good point Laura about the auctions being for the better coins.
Yahoos though are evident at all price points.
Yes, but that discount is available to all buyers. If a buyer wants that discount, they can get it and calculate it into their bid. All buyers are still bidding with the same buyers premiums.
Is it possible that some buyers forget to add the BP when placing their bids? Of course it is. However, how would you have any idea whether the other buyers did that or if they just wanted to pay more than you thought the coin/whatever was worth? You can’t know.
To the OP - if it’s worth bidding $3200 then that translates to $3840.
Yes, it’s annoying to get outbid when you are willing to pay the going rate (or more). Posters complain about being outsniped, or about excess BP. The bottom line is that someone was willing to pay more than you were.
I agree with the op totally. theres coin I wish I could have gotten but didn't. just saying
I do not dispute that. Fact is though, Buyer and seller fees along with unusually high shipping fees are tactics to add a bit of confusion to the auction experience. Simple way would be zero buyer fee and charge a single (negotiable certainly) seller fee. It would put the bidders in a better position as they would not have to juggle add-ons in a frenzied auction environment.
Of course when Aunt Agnes stumbles into the purveyors office with Uncle Wilbur's prized Saint collection, they wouldn't be able to just say "no seller fees to you Mrs. Schmaltzstein." Sellers then would have a better opportunity to understand the real transaction costs.
Hey folks, I'm just moving along.
I know what it's worth to me and it sure ain't rare enough to chase higher.
It just seems silly to have a fee that can add nothing but can discourage the chasing.
It's not affordability. It's reason.
How much in coins are you consigning to HA when you negotiate 0% seller fees?
I really do not participate in these auctions, so my comments are strictly based on perception. I also realize the auction house should be paid for their services....That being said, a 20% buyers fee does seem exorbitant. They do seem to be getting these fees though, so the market is tolerant... so far. The only way this will change is if the market forces change. Cheers, RickO
God only asks, does not demand, 10% and that model has worked for thousands of years.
On principle, I skip any company that wants more than that.
I know, it is my loss, but ultimately, it is the seller's loss, as there is 1 less person bidding, and all it takes is 2 to drive the price to the moon.
Could you imagine if, at a coin show, for a coin marked $100, you pull out the $100 bill to pay for it, and the dealer said, there is also a 20% buyer's premium?
"BUT, there are also “yahoos” who don’t seem to pay any attention to buyers’ premium and bid if it were not there."
One does not have to be an ignoramus to qualify as a "yahoo" in this context. Heritage is clever enough to realize that the "getting carried away" factor is not significantly changed (maybe) with this spread. I've been in the heat of an auction more than once, and it's very possible for a sophisticated buyer to toss out the 1.2 and just go for it, focusing on the bid alone. On Heritage's behalf they do show the price with fee during the online process, so no excuse, just passion.
I often thought of that when I was a dealer. I would have been happy with an extra 10%.
It's obvious that the auction houses are improving their bottom line with increasing their buyers' fees. Otherwise they would not be doing it. The question is, when will they get too high? I've seen a few smaller companies charging less. Let's hope they are rewarded for that.
As a Heritage bidder it makes no difference to me what their buyer's fee is. I just divide my top price by 1.2 instead of 1.175. Easy.
As a Heritage consignor it does make a difference to me. In many cases the higher spread means less money in my pocket. I've consigned to Heritage many times over the years, but when they went to 20 percent, I went elsewhere.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
What does not help ANYTHING is Heritage's abominable photography.
In a Great Collections auction, I can see WTF I am ....actually..... bidding on.
Gotta hand it to Ian Russell for a great auction venue with Great Collections. Took some time and sweat I'm sure, but it is now THE venue for the coins that aren't stratospheric.
I....from personal experience... KNOW ..how nearly impossible it is to get coin dealers to COOPERATE on almost anything.
So.... we have David Lawrence Auctions, Legend Auctions, Stacks, etc etc....
The mailing lists and years of contacts of those firms should make a formidable COMBINED auction venue.
If I were younger, I'd try to do SOMETHING to make that happen. The software is probably unglitched and a transition or combo could be an easy venture.
But I know the nature of the beast/s and don't know if the egos could look past the "fame" and to the "fortune."
IMO, high initial costs will (to an analytical person) reduce the desire of potential buyers to participate in the.... kiting ....of prices and know that down the road, it will simply mean less incentive to "play" in the coin realm.
Kudos to Ian for his pioneering excellence.
GC will probably follow suit in time.
If you have a CC that pays 1% or 2% cashback why would you not use it, if only for the protection it affords?
A coin worth say $12K is up for auction at Heritage. The bid is $11K with a bid increment of $1K. Will a bid of $12.2K win the coin for you or must the next bidder win by at least one full increment?
Or... if it's a signature sale at a show, you just pick it up for free.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
I will never understand threads like this. BP is part of the purchase price, there is no other price. A coin is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it. That person may be a sucker, or may be very astute, but in any case, your perception as to if that price is high or low, is just that, a perception. The empirical data IS the price of the coin with juice, everything else is just opinion.
The clear minority here does not understand the fact if you consign a decent coin or collection most auctions houses give you a part of the buyers vig. I have heard as high as 112.5%. They want marquee material. You want that.
If you have just stuff, then the 20% hurts both buyer and seller. Again, widgets really should not be put in auction unless they are part of a bigger set. Choose the right venue!
To date since Stacks and Heritage started 20% buyers fees price realized have only gone up. I'll say it again, watch this Long Beach Sale-you will see strong to crazy prices realized with out any hiccup on the better coins. Those prices are now the new market.
I'd bet Heritage and Stacks are squeezed as can be on profits-meaning they don't make much at all in the very end. If you -really want to moan-look at Sothebys and Christies, they make coin auctioneers look cheap on a 20% BP (they are now 25-30%)!
They still charge a commission too, no? How much is that? 10%? 20%?
It's the bid increments that piss me off.
If you have a serious collection-and its does $100,000.00 hammer. Some firm will pay you at least $105,000.00-all the way up to $112,500.000! No hidden fees. Its not like these guys are making 20% all the time. They will do this only on better coins, which is why you should not waste energy putting smaller cheaper coins in big sales. The economics does not work.
Or consign with someone putting together a large consignment.
_Your buyer premium just made one of my watched coins available to someone else.
It's worth the 3200 bid but not the more than 4 grand it would cost me to get it._
there really are no coins around-don't blame the auction co-its the market!
Once it goes live a cut bid of half the usual increment is generally available.
I gave up a long time ago. Just not smart enough to play their game. Navigating the website is a challenge. To me at least. I think that's the setup. When it's all said and done, the dealer always wins. My advise, fold and leave. Thanks but no thanks.
That's about what it comes down to.
P.S. You want to sit at that table and play THEIR game? You better have a QUICK mind. I know my limitations. And I know a scam when it's looking me right in the eye.
Even that can be substantial.
But they're not paying for the coin. They're paying 20% to an auction company for the privilege of being allowed to buy a coin from them.
We can all shift the related costs around in any fashion we like to fit our perspective, but in the end the seller isn't realizing a piece of that 20%, in fact most are paying the sellers fee too.
In the vast majority of cases the buyer's not going to get that 20% back to offset his own seller fees. There are exceptions of course.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I have always found the cuts to be reasonable. Last week on their internet auction is was $10 $12 with vig) on a $300 coin. I got beat by another cut bid, but so be it.
Huh? I don't pay the seller's premium. The issue was the cost to the OP, not the consignor's profit
Sorry...I was pulling a string on that one.
Just looked and the OP has 20 agrees on his post. Twenty people here won't agree that this is February. Perhaps the auction process is not so simple as the major houses want us to believe.
I'm not sure that I see much that is beneficial to creating a reasonable method for transferring ownership of coins which aren't magnificent through the Heritage venue.
There are other venues and from what I see, the people concerned are aware of them
I was just bitching that the one source that may have more items is so expensive to deal with.
Thanks again to Great Collections.
It just illustrates that the "less than amazing" coins should be directed elsewhere.
We plebes will make do with what we have and what is appropriate.