1864 Copper nickel Indian Cent - No L and With L

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EagleEye
EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

The coin on the right is the very rare 1864 With L Copper Nickel Indian cent.

Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:

Comments

  • Treashunt
    Treashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    WOW!

    how rare is it?

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Are those coins different thicknesses, or is that an optical illusion?

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Sandman70gt
    Sandman70gt Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I thought those were only bronze.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone, Rob41281, clarkbar04, cactusjack55, Collectorcoins, sniocsu, coin finder

  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There are four Proof patterns (J-358) These were struck with the same dies as the 1864-L Proofs.
    1) PR64 PCGS
    2) PR64 PCGS
    3) PR61 NGC
    4) PR60 PCGS

    There are four circulation issues (off metal strikes - not the Proof dies):
    1) XF This coin
    2) VF35 Brian Raines cherrypicked it.
    3) AU details NGC - cleaned
    4) AU corroded ANACS, Cherrypicked by Dana Horowitz

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jmlanzaf said:
    Are those coins different thicknesses, or is that an optical illusion?

    The 1864-L looks slightly thicker. Same weight.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • cmerlo1
    cmerlo1 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Brian showed me his specimen a while back. It's had me looking ever since!

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • davewesen
    davewesen Posts: 6,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018 1:14PM
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    I saw a damaged one on eBay in Europe and thought it must have been a counterfeit. oops, it was a bronze with rounded bust.

  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @davewesen said:
    I saw a damaged one on eBay in Europe and thought it must have been a counterfeit.

    The list is of examples I could verify. Most all of them I have personally seen, owned or in the case of Brian's coin, tried to buy.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • RichieURich
    RichieURich Posts: 8,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That's a very rare Indian cent, thank you for posting it!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • Bigbuck1975
    Bigbuck1975 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What’s something like that go for $$ wise @EagleEye

  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Bigbuck1975 said:
    What’s something like that go for $$ wise @EagleEye

    I offered Brian $10K for his. He didn't sell.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Probably made from planchets that were stuck in the workings of the press and worked themselves loose (or were just found by a worker and tossed back into the planchet container. Very similar in many ways to the 1943 Bronze cents.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Closer to the 1982-D Small Date bronze, as both copper-nickel and bronze were used in 1864. The 1943 copper is supposedly struck on a previous years planchets. There is no documentation as to when they changed the design from No L to With L. The leftover No L dies were used to strike bronze pieces. We assume the With L design was started after the planchet bins, presses and floor sweepings were cleaned of CN planchets, but it could have been a week or two between the end of CN coins and the introduction of the With L design.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018 2:59PM
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    Given that the copper-nickel planchets were thicker and harder, wouldn't that have possibly damaged the dies since the gap for the bronze pieces would have been smaller?

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If it is a wrong planchet error, yes. The die would be spaced too close together. If they put the With L dies in a press spaced for CN planchets (an intentional striking) then it would be fine. Remember the With L dies were not a design change in the Mint's mind, so it may not have drawn any notice on the production floor. This would assume that With L dies were around earlier in the year when CN cents were still being struck.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • Babboonbobo69
    Babboonbobo69 Posts: 85 ✭✭✭
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    I can’t see the L
    I suck!

  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Thanks for posting this. I enjoy learning about copper.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • RPM2
    RPM2 Posts: 91 ✭✭✭
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    Very interesting!

    Rob
  • Babboonbobo69
    Babboonbobo69 Posts: 85 ✭✭✭
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    Now I can make it out, very cool!
    Thank you for the enlarged picture.

  • Rosco
    Rosco Posts: 260 ✭✭✭✭
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    Is the PUP for this:
    Pointed bust with an L
    And a weight of 4.67gr.
    Any others ?

    R.I.P Son 1986>2020

  • OldIndianNutKase
    OldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Soooo Rick, does this mean that your book now needs an update? I love the hard copy version, but maybe when revelations such as this are found, a digital version may be more up to date.

    But for me I prefer the hard bound book. Maybe I will just print off this post and keep it with the book.

    Great Discovery Rick.

    OINK

  • AuroraBorealis
    AuroraBorealis Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    This is awesome Rick! Thank you for the interesting and informative post!!! AB

  • SullivanNumismatics
    SullivanNumismatics Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭
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    Those are neat. I'd heard of the Brian Raines' coin, but not the other three specimens. Good info, thanks for posting!

    www.sullivannumismatics.com Dealer in Mint Error Coins since 2003.
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Great thread... I have had problems understanding the 'L - no L' differences, and this makes it very clear. Thanks Rick... Cheers, RickO

  • ShadyDave
    ShadyDave Posts: 2,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Great post @EagleEye Are the any other identifying diagnostics other than the "L"? I guess you can go based on the thick planchete I guess, but are there any other die characteristics that you can use to ID lower grade examples with wear?

    Is there a variation in weight?

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ShadyDave said:
    Great post @EagleEye Are the any other identifying diagnostics other than the "L"?

    The tip of the bust is more slender and pointed with the L, heavier and blunt without.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    One of the PR64 is on eBay right now.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @1Mike1 said:
    One of the PR64 is on eBay right now.

    I think you are referring to the bronze 1864-L Proof. The CN 1864-L Proofs are so tightly held, they won't see the light of day for decades.

    I bought this coin in an NGC XF-45 holder marked as a regular 1864 CN. Long ago, I also bought one of the PR64 pieces in a NGC holder marked as a regular 1864 CN. Both were bought as the rare 1864-L CN, not cherrypicked.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2018 3:53PM
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    Yes that's the one. I'm still learning. I see now you are showing the copper vs bronze (I think). :#

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @1Mike1 said:
    Yes that's the one. I'm still learning. I see now you are showing the copper vs bronze (I think). :#

    No, I am showing No L vs With L in copper nickel.

    The 1864 bronze and 1864 CN used the same dies, in use from 1860. The With L dies are sharper and have a narrow bust point and the little "L". The catalogs list it only as 1864 With L because they are assumed to all be bronze. That is not the case. The copper nickel 1864 With L is a very rare.

    The 1864 With L copper nickel proofs are closely associated with the bronze 1864-L proofs as that are made with the same dies. The coin I have is not struck with the proof dies.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Were they making proofs in bronze and had a few copper mixed in or experimenting or?? How did these rare copper ones come to be, any idea?

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So, I got it back and PCGS called it the copper-nickel 1864-L a regular (bronze) 1864-L.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • Treashunt
    Treashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So, they didn't note the CN on the slab?
    Strange.
    Well, at least you had your labeling machine ready.
    :)

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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