1864 Copper nickel Indian Cent - No L and With L
EagleEye
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The coin on the right is the very rare 1864 With L Copper Nickel Indian cent.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
11
Comments
WOW!
how rare is it?
BHNC #203
Are those coins different thicknesses, or is that an optical illusion?
I thought those were only bronze.
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There are four Proof patterns (J-358) These were struck with the same dies as the 1864-L Proofs.
1) PR64 PCGS
2) PR64 PCGS
3) PR61 NGC
4) PR60 PCGS
There are four circulation issues (off metal strikes - not the Proof dies):
1) XF This coin
2) VF35 Brian Raines cherrypicked it.
3) AU details NGC - cleaned
4) AU corroded ANACS, Cherrypicked by Dana Horowitz
The 1864-L looks slightly thicker. Same weight.
Brian showed me his specimen a while back. It's had me looking ever since!
I saw a damaged one on eBay in Europe and thought it must have been a counterfeit. oops, it was a bronze with rounded bust.
The list is of examples I could verify. Most all of them I have personally seen, owned or in the case of Brian's coin, tried to buy.
That's a very rare Indian cent, thank you for posting it!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
What’s something like that go for $$ wise @EagleEye
I offered Brian $10K for his. He didn't sell.
Probably made from planchets that were stuck in the workings of the press and worked themselves loose (or were just found by a worker and tossed back into the planchet container. Very similar in many ways to the 1943 Bronze cents.
Closer to the 1982-D Small Date bronze, as both copper-nickel and bronze were used in 1864. The 1943 copper is supposedly struck on a previous years planchets. There is no documentation as to when they changed the design from No L to With L. The leftover No L dies were used to strike bronze pieces. We assume the With L design was started after the planchet bins, presses and floor sweepings were cleaned of CN planchets, but it could have been a week or two between the end of CN coins and the introduction of the With L design.
Given that the copper-nickel planchets were thicker and harder, wouldn't that have possibly damaged the dies since the gap for the bronze pieces would have been smaller?
If it is a wrong planchet error, yes. The die would be spaced too close together. If they put the With L dies in a press spaced for CN planchets (an intentional striking) then it would be fine. Remember the With L dies were not a design change in the Mint's mind, so it may not have drawn any notice on the production floor. This would assume that With L dies were around earlier in the year when CN cents were still being struck.
I can’t see the L
I suck!
Thanks for posting this. I enjoy learning about copper.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Very interesting!
Now I can make it out, very cool!
Thank you for the enlarged picture.
Is the PUP for this:
Pointed bust with an L
And a weight of 4.67gr.
Any others ?
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
Soooo Rick, does this mean that your book now needs an update? I love the hard copy version, but maybe when revelations such as this are found, a digital version may be more up to date.
But for me I prefer the hard bound book. Maybe I will just print off this post and keep it with the book.
Great Discovery Rick.
OINK
This is awesome Rick! Thank you for the interesting and informative post!!! AB
Those are neat. I'd heard of the Brian Raines' coin, but not the other three specimens. Good info, thanks for posting!
Great thread... I have had problems understanding the 'L - no L' differences, and this makes it very clear. Thanks Rick... Cheers, RickO
Great post @EagleEye Are the any other identifying diagnostics other than the "L"? I guess you can go based on the thick planchete I guess, but are there any other die characteristics that you can use to ID lower grade examples with wear?
Is there a variation in weight?
The tip of the bust is more slender and pointed with the L, heavier and blunt without.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
One of the PR64 is on eBay right now.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I think you are referring to the bronze 1864-L Proof. The CN 1864-L Proofs are so tightly held, they won't see the light of day for decades.
I bought this coin in an NGC XF-45 holder marked as a regular 1864 CN. Long ago, I also bought one of the PR64 pieces in a NGC holder marked as a regular 1864 CN. Both were bought as the rare 1864-L CN, not cherrypicked.
Yes that's the one. I'm still learning. I see now you are showing the copper vs bronze (I think).
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
No, I am showing No L vs With L in copper nickel.
The 1864 bronze and 1864 CN used the same dies, in use from 1860. The With L dies are sharper and have a narrow bust point and the little "L". The catalogs list it only as 1864 With L because they are assumed to all be bronze. That is not the case. The copper nickel 1864 With L is a very rare.
The 1864 With L copper nickel proofs are closely associated with the bronze 1864-L proofs as that are made with the same dies. The coin I have is not struck with the proof dies.
Were they making proofs in bronze and had a few copper mixed in or experimenting or?? How did these rare copper ones come to be, any idea?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
So, I got it back and PCGS called it the copper-nickel 1864-L a regular (bronze) 1864-L.
So, they didn't note the CN on the slab?
Strange.
Well, at least you had your labeling machine ready.
BHNC #203