Are Details coins a good value?

savitale · January 27, 2018 3:18PM

I've been tempted to buy some early type coins in Details holders recently. Just the ones that are labelled "Cleaned", not damaged or holed or something severe. It seems like the push toward originality has left lightly cleaned coins in the junk bin, sometimes selling for 50% of the price of straight-graded coins.

For some of the early type coins, with my budget I'd be looking at AG-G straight grades vs VG-F cleaned Details. In many cases the Details ones look a lot more attractive to me.

Kkathyl · January 27, 2018 3:21PM

It’s a great approach you get the benefit of the holders and a grade. You actual get what you pay for plus a little extra. Some may even straight grade depending on the issue. I like the strategy.

messydesk · January 27, 2018 3:23PM

Tough question to answer. It really depends on how severe the problem is. Detail holders may say a coin is cleaned, but both a lightly cleaned coin and a Scotch-brite coin are called cleaned, even though the lightly cleaned one should be worth considerably more (or carry considerably less of a problem coin penalty). Also be aware that if you buy a details coin, you will eventually have a difficult time selling it.

U1chicago · January 27, 2018 3:27PM

It's all up to you. Some will tell you that any details graded coin is not worth it and to stay away. Others have done well buying details coins for cheap and reselling to others who want to fill a hole in a set.

Personally, I prefer some problem coins with nice details over low grade problem-free coins. However, for me it needs to be a big difference (i.e. an AU details coin is priced around a VG-Fine problem-free example). And as you mentioned not all details coins are created equally: Cleaned, Quest Color, etc are more acceptable than Holed, Corroded, etc.

ms70 · January 27, 2018 3:35PM

Unless you're in some kind of rush, take your time, save your money, and buy non-details examples.

There is only one coin in my series that I'll have no choice but to accept in a details holder and that's because of it's lofty price tag even as a details coin.

coinkat · January 27, 2018 3:52PM

You really need to understand and appreciate what you are getting yourself into. To answer the question, my answer is generally no but a coin by coin analysis would be essential to even remotely consider such a strategy

Insider2 · January 27, 2018 4:11PM

I have been trying to convince a few folks to avoid buying cleaned or damaged coins whether they are slabbed or not. I've stopped trying because each of them is doing a great business making money selling the things!

I've learned that many folks cannot afford to purchase some of the more expensive coins UNLESS they have problems. Live and learn.

Purfrock · January 27, 2018 4:42PM

Personally, I agree with you. In many cases, I'd prefer an AU/EF that has a small problem versus a graded VG for the same money. However, a lot of it depends on the series you're trying to collect. Since I collect only early copper by variety (and like my coins raw anyway), detail graded coins for certain Sheldon numbers are as good as I can hope for (especially 1793s and 94s) on my budget. So I find the best looking ones I can find. But for other series, such as Morgan or Peace dollars, Lincoln or Indian cents, or Liberty / Buffalo nickels, nearly every coin in that series, including most key dates, are going to be available - problem free - with a little patience. So why I agree with your assessment based on what I collect, I'm not sure it makes sense with every series.

Kkathyl · January 27, 2018 4:51PM

Are you talking US coins or World? From what I recall you had said you wanted to go Global. What type of coin are you looking to buy?

Outhaul · January 27, 2018 5:19PM

There are some coins, mostly early copper, that can only be found in details holders.

divecchia · January 27, 2018 5:41PM

Each individual will look at this differently. For me it will only be okay to buy a "Details" coin if I can not afford one with a straight grade.

Donato

gtstang · January 27, 2018 5:42PM

Details coins can have a lot of character and be visually appealing as well.

mirabela · January 27, 2018 5:44PM

I usually avoid them, but now and then some amazing buys do turn up in details-graded holders, and I've made nice profits on a handful of them. I also keep a half dozen or so 'problem' coins in my type set because in those cases I get much better overall appearance and representation of the type than I could for the same money were I to insist on truly problem-free coins.

Like anything, go in with your eyes open and don't do anything until you feel like you know both your own tolerances and the marketplace -- only then can you get a sense of value and pricing, and these things are very situational.

RWM · January 27, 2018 6:00PM

An AU coin with a little cleaning compared to a straight XF or VF, which one really is a better representation of the original design? While I admit I'm a little guilty of it myself, I think as collectors we are a little hard on these coins.

jmlanzaf · January 27, 2018 6:07PM

The question isn't really the one you want to ask. The value proposition is really a price point relative to the market for the object. A bent and holed coin has a value also. What you really are worried about is future value and that requires a crystal ball that no one has. Tastes change, as do relative values.

A decade or so ago, blast white coins were worth more than toned coins. Now, people are increasingly wanting a little color. Slight porosity is tolerated on copper that would never be tolerated on silver. In the 19th century it was common to polish the silver, including the silver coins. "Patina" enhances ancient coins but ruins more modern ones.

If you like the look of a detailed coin and want to own it, that's the only thing that should matter. Anyone who tells you to save YOUR money to buy the more expensive coin is just taking a guess. It is not impossible that in the next 20 years the PQ coin will go up 10% and the details coin will go up 20%. It is also possible that the details coin will go down 50% and the PQ coin will go up 100%. It's also possible that both coins will drop 50%.

I'll let you know when my crystal ball gets back from the shop.

blitzdude · January 27, 2018 6:15PM

Are detailed coins a good value? Not if you plan to sell them in the future.

If you are buying to hold in a collection that you never plan to sell it may be OK. I've never purchased a coin labled with details, certainly ended up with more than a few slabbed that have details that were not graded as such. At some point you may not have a choice depending on what set you are building and if non detailed key dates are totally out of the budget.

uscoinguy · January 27, 2018 6:30PM

i would agree with this concept for the more rare/ expensive type coins like the early large cents. To the OP just remember that some details cleaned coins could have additional issues that are not on the label such as rim dings, graffiti, ED, or other damage. On some details coins that I have seen with more than one issue, I wonder how the TPG graders decide which problem to put on the label? The most glaring issue?

DollarAfterDollar · January 27, 2018 7:11PM

Some coins become scarce as hens teeth unmolested. Often even cleaned examples command stupid money. Buying these coins makes sense in my opinion if the issue is so minor as to not really matter in the grande scheme of things.

acloco · January 27, 2018 7:20PM

Coin by coin observation.

As all of you know, each of you have seen a "details" holder and wonder why that particular coin was tagged as such.

Now, the other 8888888888 "details" holders you have seen...........there is no doubt why the grade.

Zoins · January 27, 2018 7:24PM

@savitale said:
For some of the early type coins, with my budget I'd be looking at AG-G straight grades vs VG-F cleaned Details. In many cases the Details ones look a lot more attractive to me.

I have some concern about lower grade coins because I feel they will be counterfeited easier over the years as they can just strike a counterfeit and wear it down till the identifying diagnostics are gone.

Veep · January 27, 2018 7:25PM

Buy what your budget says you can afford and not what someone else tells you. If you’d rather have a details graded ‘16-d dime with a reverse scratch instead of no ‘16-d at all, make your choice and enjoy.

Boosibri · January 27, 2018 7:29PM

All depends on the price....a holed 1804 $1 for $10,000, yes please,

Insider2 · January 27, 2018 9:16PM

@Boosibri said:
All depends on the price....a holed 1804 $1 for $10,000, yes please,

ME TOO! Ah, unless it is through the "04!"

savitale · January 27, 2018 9:22PM

@messydesk said:
Tough question to answer. It really depends on how severe the problem is.

Yes, agreed. At this time I'm only considering pieces most would consider to have a "light" cleaning, as was probably commonplace years ago.

@Purfrock said:
However, a lot of it depends on the series you're trying to collect.

Very true. I'm not talking about Buffaloes or Peace Dollars, where attractive straight-grade coins are cheap. I'm thinking more like Flowing Hair Dollars and Chain Cents.

@Kkathyl said:
Are you talking US coins or World? From what I recall you had said you wanted to go Global. What type of coin are you looking to buy?

Good memory. I'm looking to "close the book" on some of my Dansco sets so I can focus on Ancient Greek. Unfortunately, closing-the-book is typically when the ones that hurt the pocketbook the most come in, thus my considering Details coins.

@jmlanzaf said:
The question isn't really the one you want to ask. The value proposition is really a price point relative to the market for the object. A bent and holed coin has a value also. What you really are worried about is future value and that requires a crystal ball that no one has. Tastes change, as do relative values.

Yes, this is kind of the point. Although my intention is to buy and hold indefinitely so resale is of secondary concern to me, no one likes to see their coins lose value, and who knows maybe at some point I would have to sell for financial reasons. We now have a market with CAC coins at 2x average coins, and average coins at 2x Details coins (or something like that). With an apparently shrinking number of collectors (but apparently not a shrinking supply of money), one could see that trend continuing until there are enough CAC coins to satisfy all the collectors, at which time Details coins are going to be practically worthless. Or maybe not. I know no one has a crystal ball, but it's fun to hear the opinions anyway.

@uscoinguy said:
To the OP just remember that some details cleaned coins could have additional issues that are not on the label such as rim dings, graffiti, ED, or other damage. On some details coins that I have seen with more than one issue, I wonder how the TPG graders decide which problem to put on the label? The most glaring issue?

I do worry about this too. I would hope the most severe issue is labelled, e.g., holed > tooled > graffiti > cleaned. But who knows.

@Veep said:
Buy what your budget says you can afford and not what someone else tells you. If you’d rather have a details graded ‘16-d dime with a reverse scratch instead of no ‘16-d at all, make your choice and enjoy.

Yes, I think this is what it comes down to.

lkeigwin · January 27, 2018 9:22PM

This was a details coin until it wasn't. If you pick and choose you can do well.

I like messydesk's answer. It depends on how serious the problem is.
Lance.

mannie gray · January 27, 2018 11:22PM

I think some good deals can be found in some detail holder coins.

It depends on the problem (s) and on the price.
I have not found them particularly hard to sell if you know your "problem" prices, which can take a lot of experience to get a feeling for.

Insider2 · January 27, 2018 11:30PM

@lkeigwin said:
This was a details coin until it wasn't. If you pick and choose you can do well.

I like messydesk's answer. It depends on how serious the problem is.
Lance.

Depending on how strict you wish to be, I'd say over 95% of coins in this particular series has problems. Our job is to learn what is "market acceptable" at the time.

BillJones · January 28, 2018 6:32AM

I call details grade coins, "yes, but pieces." You can say "YES, it is a rare date or vaariety, BUT" it's got this problem. The trouble I have with these pieces is that I'm never fully satisfied with them. My fingers are always itching to get a coin without the problem.

When it comes to REALLY low grade problem coins, I simply don't want them. Many years ago a dealer had a 1796 half dollar (the rarest of all the copper, copper-nickel and silver type coins) with Fair-2 sharpness, polished surfaces and a hole. The price with $8,000, which was too much, but it didn't matter to me. If that was best I could I could afford, I'd rather do without it.

ricko · January 28, 2018 7:36AM

Some 'details' coins sell well... there is definitely a low end market...as to your personal collection, it is all up to what you can enjoy and tolerate. If resale is not the issue, then buy what you like. If you are investing (always a risk with coins), then perhaps you should save for a better coin... This is a hobby for many, and a business for others... the mix of advice can be confusing. Cheers, RickO

BillJones · January 28, 2018 8:45AM

The trouble with "investing" in "details grade" coins is that you never really get to participate fully in the market increases. Yes, when the no problem coins increase in value, you problem piece will oftne follow suit, but it's never a totally clean issue. Many of those who have interest in the coin in question will reject the problem coin out of hand. In short, I don't view these coins as good investments, unless you buy them at strong discounts.

ElmerFusterpuck · January 28, 2018 8:53AM

I generally don't buy these coins, but do get it when it's a very scarce item. With my own submissions, I've made a few details coins, a couple were resubmitted and no longer had the 'problem' (like @lkeigwin above), others I ended up selling without too much trouble and with a small gain.

If the coin is a heavily counterfeited issue, the genuine tag at least provides reassurance.

Insider2 · January 28, 2018 8:56AM

@BillJones said:
I call details grade coins, "yes, but pieces." You can say "YES, it is a rare date or vaariety, BUT" it's got this problem. The trouble I have with these pieces is that I'm never fully satisfied with them. My fingers are always itching to get a coin without the problem.

When it comes to REALLY low grade problem coins, I simply don't want them. Many years ago a dealer had a 1796 half dollar (the rarest of all the copper, copper-nickel and silver type coins) with Fair-2 sharpness, polished surfaces and a hole. The price with $8,000, which was too much, but it didn't matter to me. If that was best I could I could afford, I'd rather do without it.

That's all fine and nice Mr.Bill. Many of us wish we had your knowledge and apparently your "bottom line" as it would definitely change my personal collecting habits! I'm glad there are folks like you to keep the market pumping and paste images of your coins that many of us would not encounter.

PS As I wrote above, some folks are doing very well "investing" (coins and investing? LOL) in what you and I consider to be undesirable. I like to tell the story about the local middle-age government employee we all degraded and mocked in the 1970's. He would look through dealer's junk boxes for any culls and foreign silver. I never saw him buy a "real" coin. "Hey XXXX, finding anything special? Smirk." "There's ol'Cheap______ doing his thing."
He was always so laid back and pleasant that I don't even think he knew we were mocking him. I bumped into him at the FUN Show two years ago when he came down to FL. He's retired and in the twenty-seven years since I saw him, he is the same old friend. Only now he was patiently searching out coins to put into his three-ring binder already filled with AU/Unc German and Austria Thalers and Double Thalers! "Junk" coupled with knowledge paid off for him in the end.

jt88 · January 28, 2018 11:24AM

I believe there are some good deals on details coins. Some of the details coins are very nice looking coins such as questionable color coin. I buy details coins

savitale · January 28, 2018 4:54PM

@lkeigwin said:
This was a details coin until it wasn't. If you pick and choose you can do well.

I like messydesk's answer. It depends on how serious the problem is.
Lance.

I really like this example. I can't tell what the problem is with this coin, maybe it's minor hairlines or questionable toning. Or maybe one of the scratches on the back was a little to deep for someone's taste that day. But to me it is a completely acceptable example of the type. And the overall eye appeal is a plus. I think I'd feel good about having this coin in my type set.

291fifth · January 28, 2018 4:59PM

This is a "plastic" market. If the plastic says it has a problem the coin is going to be a problem when it comes time to sell.

Think of what you feel is a fair price for a "details" coin you may be looking at and then offer a significantly lower amount. If the seller refuses just walk away. Don't make someone else's problem your problem.

mirabela · January 28, 2018 5:04PM

This one got bagged for light cleaning, legitimately. I bought it at a strong discount relative to its overall appearance from the submitter. It was easy to sell.

BillyKingsley · January 28, 2018 5:20PM

If you are buying it because you like it, does it really matter what anybody else says about it?

Now for me, there are some things I would absolutely not touch. I have no interest in anything holed, or questionable color. (or even natural color, for that matter). Cleaning? Would depend. I don't want pink copper. (bought some as a kid). Polished is no go. Scratches depend- I generally collect circulated anyway so unless it's beyond scratch to gouge it would not automatically rule it out. Placement and depth would of course vary piece by piece. Rim dings? I actually have a collection of dinged rims. All pulled from circulation, because I enjoy them. For older coins I prefer "circulated cameo" with basically uniform color. (gray for silver, milk chocolate brown for copper). Many of the coins I treasure the most would not be collected by other members of the board. But they make ME happy, and I will never sell them, so there's no problem. I'm probably the lowest of the low-end collectors on here, averaging $20 a month split across three hobbies, yet I still have collections that I very much enjoy...it includes problem pieces, be they this hobby or the others. I'd rather have a less-than-perfect example than no example at all.

My point is, if you are collecting for personal happiness, your personal happiness is all that matters.

tommy44 · January 28, 2018 6:24PM

I have 57 details coins in my $5 liberty half-eagle set, 47 of them cleaned, only 1 harshly, only 1 polished. All but 3 of the 57 were purchased raw prior to third party grading, most based on written descriptions or black and white actual size photos in auction catalogs. A few have an "old" scratch or two that I don't consider distracting for the amount of wear on the coin.

If I had seen them in hand first would I have bought them. except for a very few probably. Am I glad I own them, you betcha. If I run across a replacement that is straight graded will I buy it, it depends, so far I haven't replaced any.

All of them "filled a hole" at what I thought was a fair price at the time. I guess I'm one of those guys that likes filling holes, especially if it's been empty for a long time.

Are Details coins a good value?

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