New to the forum - and interested in 1840's decade Philadelphia gold pieces
historybuff
Posts: 69 ✭✭✭
Hello all – I am new to this forum. I have dabbled on and off with coins for many years, and I am an amateur collector, not a dealer. About 15-20 years ago I studied the red book for what I felt were the most rare available coins at a reasonable price. I narrowed in on Philly liberty gold because:
- they are rare with many having low mintages
- they have a beautiful design by Gobrechjt, , and Gobrecht was from Pennsylvania
- they have generally high quality strikes and detail
- they are historically very interesting - they are from America’s main mint, are almost 200 years old, and would have been the coins that circulated in Pennsylvania, my home state. They also are from a fascinating period of early gold rushes (potentially minted from a mix of foreign coinage gold, southern and western gold), predating the main California gold rush. Also interesting transitions in the design occurred in this decade and that after 1850 the denominations changed due to the gold rush.
- and of course they are GOLD.
I have seen a number of blogs and articles in the years since, that reinforced my earlier ideas about the rarity and value of these Philadelphia gold pieces. Also, when I original studied these, it was before the internet and associated survivor population estimates were not available (at least I had not seen any). Now seeing survivor estimates, many of these issues appear to be much more rare than I even assumed at the time. I am now very interested in focusing specifically on Philadelphia gold pieces from the 1840’s decade picking up on my earlier thoughts from years ago.
I would enjoy hearing from other collectors of these coins and any photos. I am interested in others’ thoughts on this series of coins and in particular thoughts on the surviving population figures (including anyone’s other data sources for pop figures). In particular, if you have other population figures from other sources I would be most interested. In reviewing the surviving populations of these coins in PCGS coinfacts, the estimated number of Philadelphia issue survivors is as follows:
$2.50 survivors in any condition
1840 80
1841 --
1842 55
1843 125
1844 65
1845 300
1846 100
1847 125
1848 100
1849 115
$5.00 survivors in any condition
1840 275
1841 150 (for comparison this is the same figure as surviving 1794 silver dollars or 1796 gold eagles)
1842 LL 47
1842 SL 107
1843 350
1844 425
1845 300
1846 LD 200
1846 SD 50
1847 650
1848 275
1849 175
1850 135
$10.00 survivors in any condition
1840 187 (for comparison this is the same population as the most rare 1793 chain cent variety)
1841 262
1842 LD 200
1842 SD 75
1843 175
1844 55
1845 110
1846 105
1847 800
1848 250
1849 625
In total, this is about 7,100 coins total if you add up all of the 1840's Philadelphia survivors of all of the gold denominations. For comparison, PCGS estimates that about 10,000 1916-D mercury dimes survive.
Comments
Welcome
Have you met @Boosibri? I look forward to your conversations 
Thank you, glad to meet you
, and no I've not met anyone else yet as I only started on the forum today - but also look forward to hearing from those with similar interest.
Hello and welcome to the forum. I've been collecting $5 Liberty half-eagles since the mid 1970s including a dry spell from about 1992 through 2011. I believe this is a highly overlooked, under rated and undervalued series. I have an example of all of the 40s Philadelphia issues except the 1842 LD & SD and the 1946 SD. Here are photos of a few that are part of my collection.
my 1841 in a NGC AU53 holder
my 1844 lots of die cracks obverse and reverse and in a NGC MS62 holder
my 1848 now in a NGC AU58 holder
and last but not least my 1849 also in a NGC AU58 holder
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Beautiful coins Tommy44 thanks for the photos! My id photo is my 1841 $5 PCGS AU50
Welcome to the forum and I agree with everything you say...I will add two more "pros" to the P mint coins are that they are more likely to come original...not scrubbed and cleaned like their branch mint cousins...and that it is possible to put together a nice date set without spending a fortune...there are no real stoppers...
That said...unfortunately Philadelphia gold has been "undervalued" for many years...and I don't see that changing any time soon...
I just sold this beauty. I didn't think the scratch was worth the details grade, but I sold it without trying at pcgs (might be a mistake!)
If you're new to the board, you need to learn an important acronym. DOG -- Dirty Old Gold. It refers to circulated gold that has a nice, wholesome, comfy old shoes look to it. My 1843 isn't really that dirty, but is a wholesome AU, and if you're looking for wholesomeness on your 1840s gold, you can take your survival numbers above and cut them by a rather large amount.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Jwitten, yea I don’t get that grade- but it is tough to tell without seeing it in person. I am interested in rarity over condition and that is just the type of “problem coin” I would be glad to have in my collection. Having lots of experience with other collectibles, I am not your usual coin collector when it comes to judging condition. in concept I don’t agree with the whole “problem” versus “problem free” idea- it is too black and white. I think the numerical grading method should be structured to be much more fair than essentially labeling such “problem” coins as a “reject”. I just do not agree with that approach and many seem to be subjectively judged.
Jwitten, I've seen worse scratches on CAC'd coins...
My two favorite 1840's Philly $10's
Welcome. Seems you've done a lot of research already. I like your focus!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@historybuff Welcome aboard.
That's some scarce gold that you collect.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
Welcome to the forum. You'll find a wealth of experience and knowledge here !!!
This area has been my specialty for about 5 years. Happy to answer any questions.
A few past threads:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/919396/a-case-for-philadelphia-no-motto-5s-lots-of-pics
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11552975#Comment_11552975
Here are the two most rare half eagles in that date run and the the most rare pre 1863.
Latin American Collection
A very relevant DWN blog: https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2016/9/14/why-no-motto-philadelphia-half-eagles-may-be-the-best-value-in-todays-dated-gold-market
Latin American Collection
The very difficult 1842 $2.5. If you go back through old catalogs in the late 1800’s up until the 1960’s this coin was assumed to be a major rarity likely confusing it with the 1841 but the belief stuck for decades. As such finding the provenance of the 1842 $2.5’s is much easier than the $5’s as most QE’s are plated. It is still a rare coin with under 60 survivors with choice examples being co7nted on one hand.
Here is the nicest EF I have ever seen.
Latin American Collection
@historybuff , welcome and nice writeup. I own only one Philly mint coin - an 1842 $2.5 . I simply bought it because of of rarity, beauty and relative price. I will buy more of these when they come available. I too am drawn toward the rarity and many of the other factors you mention.
Thank you all for your responses, and for the photos of your beautiful coins. I have assembled a few so far, but some of mine are not as original in color as many of yours. A few examples I have:
This is an 1846 small date $5
This is an 1849 $5
1840 $10 NGC AU55
1841 $10 PCGS scratched (scratch on cheek)
1842 SD PCGS AU50
1848 NGC AU58
@historybuff ....Welcome aboard.... You have selected an interesting focus area... plus, it is gold - my favorite...Those are very nice coins you have... You should enjoy this forum and certainly there are several other collectors that share your passions. Cheers, RickO
Thanks ricko and others - Boosibri, that MS65 is amazing. Makes you wonder how it remained so well protected for so many years. Boosibri, thanks for the links to the other relevant threads and blog. I would be most interested in your own date by date analysis of the Philadelphia gold from this decade, based on your experiences, but that is asking a lot! Any thoughts are much appreciated!
Welcome to the Forum, it's a Great place!!!
U.S. Type Set
I love amazingly original US Gold and that can be found in this series. Regardless of date buying high eye appeal coins in any grade is good value relative to other series.
1840 - relatively available but interesting none the less particularly the broad mill
1841- much less seen than other dates of similar rarity
1842 LL - the rarest date of any mint between 1839 and 1863
1842 SL - two gems (N65 and P66) exist, one ex. Atwater the other ex. Flanagan. Second rarest date.
1843-1845 - common
1846 SD - rarity is over stated as it was only recognized recently by the services
1846 LD - not common, not rare, in the middle
1847 - common, looks for the MPD with the 1 in the neck
1848 - similar to the 1846
1849 - better date and under valued
1850 - sub 100 population, great date
Also consider the 1858-1860 dates with the 1859 the rarest in the pre-civil war run aside fr9m the 1842’s
Latin American Collection
Thanks Boosibri - it is funny you mention that variety of the 1847 as I actually had also been lucky enough to obtain the 1847 variety that you note - see photo below. Do you have any ide how rare this could be?
I also was able to obtain an 1841 which appears to have a nice surface:
Here's 2 of my early Eagles.
I really like used gold, for some reason.
No idea how rare the 1847 $5 MPD with the 1 in the neck is. All I know is that I've owned three 1847 Philadelphia $5s and two of them were that variety. I've looked at plenty in unattributed slabs since and haven't found another. So... maybe just dumb luck on my part. Didn't realize it when I bought either of them and discovered it in Bill Fivaz's Cherry Pickers Guide. Fivaz's discovery is also mentioned in Breen's Encyclopedia but not given a separate variety number.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Thanks Tommy44. Dogwood- my theory is that the 1845 eagle is more rare than the 1846 based on coins that I have seen available last couple of years.. maybe almost as rare ad the 1844? I would hold onto that one!
EarlyAurum- ditto, that $2.50 is awesome! If I had that, I would hold onto it - that is a treasure!
Those are some historic coins, very cool stuff!
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