@ricko said:
Congratulations to JA/CAC on ten years. I remember very well the incredible storm of posts when CAC was launched.... Most were either super negative or decidedly positive. It went on for months as the central theme.... of course, it has continued through these ten years as an almost daily topic for one reason or another. There is no doubt of the impact on pricing - there is a premium that exceeds cost - in most cases. Certainly it is, for the most part, an additional layer of security. One should also remember that a lack of a sticker does not signify a bad coin...just one that JA/CAC considers below their standard (clearly posted). As I said, it has had a positive impact on profitability... and a deleterious effect on coins without a sticker - in some segments of the hobby. It is certainly interesting to watch the evolution of grading/certification services. What is next? Cheers, RickO
I was decidingly against CAC from day 1 to day 124. Then I flipped like pancake at IHOP and have been on board ever since.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am a bit reluctant to ask but here goes: Can a green/gold CAC sticker be "successfully" removed from one TPG holder and "successfully" added to a different TPG holder? I have six CAC green coins and this thought has crossed my mind.
@BryceM said:
Maybe you old-timers can correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't PQ coins sell for more and not-so-great coins sell for less long before CAC came along?
It seems like everyone has forgotten that.
Elite coins in elite states of preservation have always sold for more to a few elite buyers and students of coinage. The normal shades inbetween not as much. And while all of those nicer coins were going for more the meat and potatoes portion of the hobby did just fine save for the opposite side of the spectrum being the straight dogs (no offense RYK).
As the TPGs undercut the value of raw coins, CAC has under cut the not premium segment which is I guess the point I am debating. It isn’t like cac is even grading coins, they are grading coins and plastic combos which sort of skews the mission statement from “nice for the grade” to “nice for the price” which is a very dealer perspective. I get it on this board which has (some) sophisticated collectors that they were targeting the high end stuff but that isn’t the big part of the hobby. I don’t think I can fully endorse something that props up the high end undercuts the bulk and shifts consumer demand to a very narrow portion of the market. Good for the dealers that market that stuff but do plain collectors really need to be undercut for empowerment of the investing side of the hobby?
@BryceM said:
Maybe you old-timers can correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't PQ coins sell for more and not-so-great coins sell for less long before CAC came along?
It seems like everyone has forgotten that.
Nobody has forgotten that. CAC just provides a means of identifying which coins are PQ for the grade and by default which coins aren't. Of course not everyone needs a sticker to tell them that coin X is nice for the grade.
I am a bit reluctant to ask but here goes: Can a green/gold CAC sticker be "successfully" removed from one TPG holder and "successfully" added to a different TPG holder? I have six CAC green coins and this thought has crossed my mind.
1) You can't get them off without soaking them under a micro-puddle of Goo-Gone for a few minutes.
2) All stickers can be verified by serial number look-up on their website.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I am a bit reluctant to ask but here goes: Can a green/gold CAC sticker be "successfully" removed from one TPG holder and "successfully" added to a different TPG holder? I have six CAC green coins and this thought has crossed my mind.
1) You can't get them off without soaking them under a micro-puddle of Goo-Gone for a few minutes.
2) All stickers can be verified by serial number look-up on their website.
1) would be incorrect and I'll just leave it at that.
One reason the TPG services were created was to standardize grading and allow coins to be traded SIGHT UNSEEN.
From dealer networks "Hey everyone I need a nice white pr65 morgan dollar and Ill pay $x". Or I need $500 white ms65 dollars either pcgs or ngc. Pay $y.
Over time, standards began to change and ms65 coins began to look like the old ms63 or ms64 (gradeflation). For quality coin buyers this destroyed the SU market as they could no longer just rely on the TPG services.
Enter JA who was an active coin trader in quality coins. He created a product that helped identify quality coins according to HIS OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS. We can all agree or disagree whether we believe a particular coin should have met HIS standards- but ultimately what was created was a market maker who buys and sells over $4,000,000 per month on CAC coins. Yes even he makes mistakes and stickers coins that on a second look he does not want associated with the CAC brand and therefor what he will do is remove the sticker.
Keep in mind that for at least the pre-civil war series, CAC will reject a coin that they consider lightly cleaned in the distant past even if the coin is otherwise stunning. I have had a few rejected with that label upon return. So the value of the coin is destroyed by rejection by CAC even it is is all there except a minor ancient cleaning.
Here is an example where they dinged it for the reverse, even though there are no hairlines and the cartwheel luster is still there under the light. It is an R5-, so I would be hard pressed to find another of this die marriage this nice, and probably within this die marriage, it is an A or B coin for the grade given the scarcity. So in my view, this is where the CAC concept might break down some. If all of the coins in a grade for a specific type are in bad shape for cleaning, how does one decide it to be A, B, or C and bean worthy?
@spacehayduke said:
So the value of the coin is destroyed by rejection by CAC even it is is all there except a minor ancient cleaning.
Value destroyed? Isn't the value somewhat equal to what you paid without the CAC sticker? Or is its value reduced in your own mind since this is your preference to have the bean?
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@spacehayduke said:
Keep in mind that for at least the pre-civil war series, CAC will reject a coin that they consider lightly cleaned in the distant past even if the coin is otherwise stunning. I have had a few rejected with that label upon return. So the value of the coin is destroyed by rejection by CAC even it is is all there except a minor ancient cleaning.
Here is an example where they dinged it for the reverse, even though there are no hairlines and the cartwheel luster is still there under the light. It is an R5-, so I would be hard pressed to find another of this die marriage this nice, and probably within this die marriage, it is an A or B coin for the grade given the scarcity. So in my view, this is where the CAC concept might break down some. If all of the coins in a grade for a specific type are in bad shape for cleaning, how does one decide it to be A, B, or C and bean worthy?
Best, SH
If every coin for a particular date/variety have been cleaned to the point of not being acceptable for cac standards then the standard should remain the same and NO coin should get the bean. That is consistency and part of what makes the cac product valuable.
I dont know how many coins cac has stickered but I would imagine the amount of coins that top experienced graders/dealers would say are undeserving or should not have been stickered is minuscule at best.
Ask the same people about actual coins in holders they believe should not have been graded (or are overgraded) and that number would be significantly higher.
So many times have I done a "lot viewing" and just ended up shaking my head at some of the coins that have made it into holders. Allowing these coins are what is helping destroy values
@topstuf said:
Quitting coins makes more sense every day.
Yes, and it's sad the one company has so much influence over that decision.
And.... it was my initial worry and quasi-prediction way back when.
Maybe MY leaving the market won't make a hill of beans. But multiply that and we come full circle to my original premise that every "complication" is a negative to many present and future hobbyists.
It is extra "cost." Though nominal, it's still a factor.
If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that CLARITY is anything BUT!
The more levels of approval that are NEEDED to make a purchase decision, the fewer will be the purchases. i.e. "BAD" for the hobby.
We seem to now be at a place where NOBODY ...not TPG....not CAC.... NONE have full and unquestioned certainty of what the hell they say they do. (with the exception of support of business policy reinforcement)
This then, is a true negative.
Nah, I'm ....awful.... close to chucking this hobby that has been with me since Gramma gave me the
1908-S IHC in 1949.
I will make sure that my butt is clear of the door when I leave though.
@topstuf said:
Quitting coins makes more sense every day.
Yes, and it's sad the one company has so much influence over that decision.
And.... it was my initial worry and quasi-prediction way back when.
Maybe MY leaving the market won't make a hill of beans. But multiply that and we come full circle to my original premise that every "complication" is a negative to many present and future hobbyists.
It is extra "cost." Though nominal, it's still a factor.
If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that CLARITY is anything BUT!
The more levels of approval that are NEEDED to make a purchase decision, the fewer will be the purchases. i.e. "BAD" for the hobby.
We seem to now be at a place where NOBODY ...not TPG....not CAC.... NONE have full and unquestioned certainty of what the hell they say they do. (with the exception of support of business policy reinforcement)
This then, is a true negative.
Nah, I'm ....awful.... close to chucking this hobby that has been with me since Gramma gave me the
1908-S IHC in 1949.
I will make sure that my butt is clear of the door when I leave though.
If you really are disillusioned with the state of things, then I understand where you are coming from. However, I would still recommend to think carefully about fully leaving. Try changing your collecting focus or just continue to assemble items that you like without worrying what others think.
Wait until it becomes a teenager -- and misses curfew, and sasses back, and won't clean its room, and knows-it-all, and gripes about taking out the trash ! Humph! Then see what those little stickers do!
CAC is symptomatic of a mature numismatic market. Everything dated 1930 and earlier has been graded at least two, possibly three times. Why? Because of changing grading standards over time.
A CAC sticker means that John Albanese, an all around knowledgeable and respected man in the industry, is willing to buy a particular coin when it crosses his desk at CAC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mr. Albanese is in the business of wholesaling coins, primarily Morgans and various gold coins, he does not make money stickering them. The sticker tells any particular buyer that he would purchase said coin in said holder when the specific coin crossed his desk.
The sticker is used by most in the industry in the business as a marketing tool. How much of a premium is the sticker worth? As much as you can get for it from a buyer.
Is this good for the hobby? If you have first shot at attractive coins, it's very good for you. You can get these coins, market them as superior for the grade and see how much of a premium a retail customer will pay for them. If you've bought some nice coins, and held them for ten or twenty years, maybe not.
Why? Because if your coin is nice for the grade, sticker or no sticker, it is probably a good idea to resubmit the coin for regrading. If the coin is stickered, and upgrades, you have to resubmit the coin to CAC again to see if you get a sticker at the higher grade. If the coin gets a plus, you have to send it back to CAC to get it stickered again, as CAC does not recognize the plus designation. As a collector, I prefer to buy the right coin in the right holder at the right price and be done with it. To me, all of this is a nuisance and greatly detracts from the joy I get from the hobby. If I want to make money, it doesn't come from my purchases and sales of coins.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@specialist said:
this would not be a cac post with out the great bill jones ragging something on cac: _
As a buyer, one of the things really drives me nuts about CAC is that dealers still try to get premium prices for coins even when CAC blows it and stickers an over graded coin. _
ugh maybe this happens because there are strong sightunseen buy prices for most CAC coins? you complain more about cac beaning coins then you about doctored or over graded coins from any grading service, give it up already.
while some people may not agree with every coin cac grades, the one thing you will be saved from-a doctored coin. that alone makes them important
How is one guaranteed to be saved from a doctored coin? CAC does not photograph every coin. What happens if a CAC slabbed coin is gassed?
Or maybe CAC just gets a few wrong... GASP (not targeted at you). I have seen a number of problem coins, particularly with deep scratches that are still distracting even though supposedly "toned over."
@specialist said:
this would not be a cac post with out the great bill jones ragging something on cac: _
As a buyer, one of the things really drives me nuts about CAC is that dealers still try to get premium prices for coins even when CAC blows it and stickers an over graded coin. _
ugh maybe this happens because there are strong sightunseen buy prices for most CAC coins? you complain more about cac beaning coins then you about doctored or over graded coins from any grading service, give it up already.
while some people may not agree with every coin cac grades, ****the one thing you will be saved from-a doctored coin. that alone makes them important****
Their warranty is solidly the best in the business. That alone make the sticker worth the money and a solid positive on any coin that has one.
That said they aren’t perfect, I have a tooled coin with a Cac sticker. I couldn’t replace the rarity so I don’t claim it but I might if I was to find a replacement coin. I have seen very very few problem cac stickers
For the record, there is no CAC warranty or guarantee. CAC has historically always made competitive bids, but it is free to stop at any time without any legal obligation to warranty anything.
I agree but think it will be more gradual (just due to reluctance to respect reality of stagnant inventory) and unless I miss my guess, far more damaging.
After I get 2 things I ordered which should be here this week, I think I'm done.
????
One reason the TPG services were created was to standardize grading and allow coins to be traded SIGHT UNSEEN.
I thought that was what CAC would going to do - make so I could buy coins with their stickers signt unseen. Nope, did not work, I still have to see it in hand although there is a better chance I will like it with a CAC sticker on it.
I agree with you 100%, but the real culprit here is not CAC which I feel is unfairly maligned. CAC is a venerable operation insofar as its goals. The real problem lies with the reality that very few collectors and dealers can actually grade and think for themselves. People have become too reliant on plastic for crutches. Now with grade inflation, CAC has become a secondary crutch. The plastic-sticker craze has led to an unhealthy obsession that I believe has exacerbated instabilities within the market. Instead of completely untethering PQ coins from the rest, it has caused prices for many coins (even undoctored pieces) to tank. This will likely drag the rest of the market down with it as there must be a logical limit to the amount of money that people will throw at plastic and stickers rather than that annoying round metallic thing in the middle. Is a 65.5 really worth 2x a 65.3? Where is the limit? I may be wrong, but I predict a massive market correction that will make 2008-2015 look like nothing.
I fully agree with your statement. But one outcome of CAC is that it helped me to become a better grader, at least to their standards. As I note above, I still need to see a coin in hand to evaluate it, but having that CAC evaluation has definitely helped me evaluate surfaces better.
A CAC sticker means that John Albanese, an all around knowledgeable and respected man in the industry, is willing to buy a particular coin when it crosses his desk at CAC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mr. Albanese is in the business of wholesaling coins, primarily Morgans and various gold coins, he does not make money stickering them. The sticker tells any particular buyer that he would purchase said coin in said holder when the specific coin crossed his desk.
Does anyone know to whom he wholesales ....most... of the coins to?
I know that it is not Albanese Coins, http://www.coinace.com
Does he have his own website where these offered coins are sold to the public? Or is it only wholesale?
There is a somewhat similar trend starting in the card market, one of the big auction houses PWCC is now labeling select cards (PWCC-HE), PWCC certified high end.
And to celebrate the first 10 years of green beans, and this wonderful discussion about it, I used my new 10 years of CAC mug to enjoy a Tazo wild sweet orange hot tea this evening, and toasted my wife (she drinking DePaz rum) to another 10 years of green bean bliss.......... Ho ho ho!
One reason the TPG services were created was to standardize grading and allow coins to be traded SIGHT UNSEEN.
I thought that was what CAC would going to do - make so I could buy coins with their stickers signt unseen. Nope, did not work, I still have to see it in hand although there is a better chance I will like it with a CAC sticker on it.
Best, SH
TPGS were created so that when a coin was described as ms65 it actually was universally accepted in the market to be an ms65. So it was when the grading services first began but as the years went by and gradeflation began to kick in, it become evident that no 2 ms65's were the same anymore. (obviously 2 coins can never be the same-but the idea was that if the TPGS called it an ms65 then "all" could agree it was an ms65)
CAC came in to remake that market specifically for HIMSELF. CAC was not made that you for sure would like it.
Dealers and collectors learned or saw (for those that didnt know) that JA's blessing implied very strongly the coin was solid for the grade and was nice and therefor CAC really took off. There have been other companies that created stickering services afterwards to mimic the cac model but their reputation and eye did not carry as much weight which is why it seems to me they didnt take off the same way.
CAC has become as large and strong as it has because of its recognition and trust in its product.
A CAC sticker means that John Albanese, an all around knowledgeable and respected man in the industry, is willing to buy a particular coin when it crosses his desk at CAC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mr. Albanese is in the business of wholesaling coins, primarily Morgans and various gold coins, he does not make money stickering them. The sticker tells any particular buyer that he would purchase said coin in said holder when the specific coin crossed his desk.
Does anyone know to whom he wholesales ....most... of the coins to?
I know that it is not Albanese Coins, http://www.coinace.com
Does he have his own website where these offered coins are sold to the public? Or is it only wholesale?
Many coins are sold through blanchard. otherwise its basically all wholesale- and to whom-that really depends
@spacehayduke said:
And to celebrate the first 10 years of green beans, and this wonderful discussion about it, I used my new 10 years of CAC mug to enjoy a Tazo wild sweet orange hot tea this evening, and toasted my wife (she drinking DePaz rum) to another 10 years of green bean bliss.......... Ho ho ho!
Best, SH
Was that "Ho ho ho!" from Santa or from the Jolly Green Giant?
@spacehayduke said:
And to celebrate the first 10 years of green beans, and this wonderful discussion about it, I used my new 10 years of CAC mug to enjoy a Tazo wild sweet orange hot tea this evening, and toasted my wife (she drinking DePaz rum) to another 10 years of green bean bliss.......... Ho ho ho!
Best, SH
Was that "Ho ho ho!" from Santa or from the Jolly Green Giant?
Based on personal conversations with JA, he has been convinced many times by one or another of his other graders to change his mind.
Many here would wish CAC might serve as a cop. Their intention is to be a cherry-picker.
Many want CAC to "save" the hobby. It is content to "save" one coin at a time.
Ask any serious dealer if he is willing to enter any coin into an automated inventory at a transaction cost of $13.50.
When prices were higher, he was shipping CAC MS65 Saints at a $65 mark-up.
The TPGs have always had, and will continue to have, a statistically impossible task in grading correctly. The best any reasonable person should likely expect is a self-correcting process (which will also be humanly flawed). Per Ralph Waldo Emerson "There's a crack in everything God has made"
I bought my first $1,000 coin in 1972. I've been watching over the last 45 years to the risks and rewards of $100,000,000 in lifetime non-bullion buy/sells. That would put my guess at having looked at about $5 billion in current value.
I was JA's junior (and only) grader when NGC started, though Mark Salzberg should have had the job in the first place.
I have virtually never bought a coin for stock on someone else's say-so, but might have partnered $10,000,000 (or much more) over the last 45 years. CAC coins are faster sellers at generally more optimal levels.
My observations from being a technical contributor to the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition Committee has surely informed me of the evolutionary changes in grading philosophies.
If this sounds to you like too much "I, I, I" to you, likewise But I'm a (formerly monster-good) crack-out artist and active trader who's developed into a part of institutional memory. BTW, CAC has decreased my crack-outs dramatically. More and more buyers for coins like the 1902-S pictured in another thread and my opportunities continually decrease.
Technical grading is an ideology.
Market grading is a philosophy.
The philosophy is that enough individual buyers are present to support trackable and "viable" price levels.
There has ever, and always be, a bifurcated market between "OK-ish" and PQ.
And none of my standards need be yours.
LOL, your should only sit in after an auction with 5 top-end EAC dealers and hear them mostly criticize their trading buddies of the past 30+ years for the purchases each made in the past three hours.
Harvey Stack, who felt the loss of personal choice and autonomy for his huge collector base, as he personally helped me with some technical issues as (1987) NGC was being formed (fully knowing it was against his personal tastes and inimical to his existing business model), warned me that it would complicate things, and it would only get worse. Had we but known!
But it got better.
And nobody else's standards need be yours.
I don't "get" toned dollars to any degree other than to note there are general standards that specialists in that area can divine. Take three guys out of this market and premiums go down (let's stipulate) to 600% of bid from 1000%. None of the bid x 200% buyers are affected whatsoever.
But look at it from the macro top-down as well as the micro bottom-up.
Then buy what others might think is not as good a deal. If it makes you personally happy
Screw what I think, or how I grade.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Darn, that is a very informative post to understand and a hard post to "follow." I wish I had composed this post a few minutes faster.
Of course the CAC sticker is helpful. Any one of a number of knowledgeable, well-off, wealthy, well-connected, and well-respected professional coin dealers could have started a sticker service. They still can! For example, Laura S. and James Halperin came to mind. "Wings" is the newest entry.
The sticker is the modern practice of showing a raw coin to all the guys more knowledgeable than you for their opinion before buying it. Now, this occurs with slabs and I'll bet even with CAC stickered slabs.
This sticker thing is nothing new to me. I know a TPGS professional who had indestructible stickers printed in 1987 and was ready to start a company that would only sticker any slab containing a coin graded in the MS ranges that actually had no trace of wear! He intended to price the service for a buck a coin + return postage.
Unfortunately/fortunately he was hired by a TPGS before he could put his plan into operation. Consequently Eagle-Eye was probably the first sticker service. As I understand, these are coins that are properly graded by Rick's standards.
Furthermore, when the naïve fellow suggested that his new boss at the TPGS put true "technical" MS coins into holders with a gold label to separate the wheat from the chaff,...LOL! He said he received a quick lesson why that would kill the value of most of the coins the company already graded. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey get rich is the way it works.
I'll bet if the TPGS started using decimal grades they would take a big chunk of the present profits from CAC. In any case, Joe Blow big dealer could put out an Internet price list and guarantee to purchase any coin with his unique sticker. Walk up to his table, show him a coin, get free opinion and a sticker or not. Nice way to guarantee potential future purchases.
Comments
I agree. But PCGS and NGC will also "not be around forever". Nor will we. Only the coins last forever.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Carpe Diem!!!!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I was decidingly against CAC from day 1 to day 124. Then I flipped like pancake at IHOP and have been on board ever since.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am a bit reluctant to ask but here goes: Can a green/gold CAC sticker be "successfully" removed from one TPG holder and "successfully" added to a different TPG holder? I have six CAC green coins and this thought has crossed my mind.
...yes for collectors and no for dealers is my position
Elite coins in elite states of preservation have always sold for more to a few elite buyers and students of coinage. The normal shades inbetween not as much. And while all of those nicer coins were going for more the meat and potatoes portion of the hobby did just fine save for the opposite side of the spectrum being the straight dogs (no offense RYK).
As the TPGs undercut the value of raw coins, CAC has under cut the not premium segment which is I guess the point I am debating. It isn’t like cac is even grading coins, they are grading coins and plastic combos which sort of skews the mission statement from “nice for the grade” to “nice for the price” which is a very dealer perspective. I get it on this board which has (some) sophisticated collectors that they were targeting the high end stuff but that isn’t the big part of the hobby. I don’t think I can fully endorse something that props up the high end undercuts the bulk and shifts consumer demand to a very narrow portion of the market. Good for the dealers that market that stuff but do plain collectors really need to be undercut for empowerment of the investing side of the hobby?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Shamika... I doubt we will need a fifth party to keep CAC honest but consuming a fifth may help make some of this seem honest.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Nobody has forgotten that. CAC just provides a means of identifying which coins are PQ for the grade and by default which coins aren't. Of course not everyone needs a sticker to tell them that coin X is nice for the grade.
.> @59Horsehide said:
1) You can't get them off without soaking them under a micro-puddle of Goo-Gone for a few minutes.
2) All stickers can be verified by serial number look-up on their website.
1) would be incorrect and I'll just leave it at that.
One reason the TPG services were created was to standardize grading and allow coins to be traded SIGHT UNSEEN.
From dealer networks "Hey everyone I need a nice white pr65 morgan dollar and Ill pay $x". Or I need $500 white ms65 dollars either pcgs or ngc. Pay $y.
Over time, standards began to change and ms65 coins began to look like the old ms63 or ms64 (gradeflation). For quality coin buyers this destroyed the SU market as they could no longer just rely on the TPG services.
Enter JA who was an active coin trader in quality coins. He created a product that helped identify quality coins according to HIS OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS. We can all agree or disagree whether we believe a particular coin should have met HIS standards- but ultimately what was created was a market maker who buys and sells over $4,000,000 per month on CAC coins. Yes even he makes mistakes and stickers coins that on a second look he does not want associated with the CAC brand and therefor what he will do is remove the sticker.
For another interesting perspective on the cac model, https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/978977/a-laymans-way-to-think-about-cac-and-their-business-model
I just want TDN to get the infamous "100" post to this thread.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Keep in mind that for at least the pre-civil war series, CAC will reject a coin that they consider lightly cleaned in the distant past even if the coin is otherwise stunning. I have had a few rejected with that label upon return. So the value of the coin is destroyed by rejection by CAC even it is is all there except a minor ancient cleaning.
Here is an example where they dinged it for the reverse, even though there are no hairlines and the cartwheel luster is still there under the light. It is an R5-, so I would be hard pressed to find another of this die marriage this nice, and probably within this die marriage, it is an A or B coin for the grade given the scarcity. So in my view, this is where the CAC concept might break down some. If all of the coins in a grade for a specific type are in bad shape for cleaning, how does one decide it to be A, B, or C and bean worthy?
Best, SH
Value destroyed? Isn't the value somewhat equal to what you paid without the CAC sticker? Or is its value reduced in your own mind since this is your preference to have the bean?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Quitting coins makes more sense every day.
If every coin for a particular date/variety have been cleaned to the point of not being acceptable for cac standards then the standard should remain the same and NO coin should get the bean. That is consistency and part of what makes the cac product valuable.
I dont know how many coins cac has stickered but I would imagine the amount of coins that top experienced graders/dealers would say are undeserving or should not have been stickered is minuscule at best.
Ask the same people about actual coins in holders they believe should not have been graded (or are overgraded) and that number would be significantly higher.
So many times have I done a "lot viewing" and just ended up shaking my head at some of the coins that have made it into holders. Allowing these coins are what is helping destroy values
And.... it was my initial worry and quasi-prediction way back when.
Maybe MY leaving the market won't make a hill of beans. But multiply that and we come full circle to my original premise that every "complication" is a negative to many present and future hobbyists.
It is extra "cost." Though nominal, it's still a factor.
If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that CLARITY is anything BUT!
The more levels of approval that are NEEDED to make a purchase decision, the fewer will be the purchases. i.e. "BAD" for the hobby.
We seem to now be at a place where NOBODY ...not TPG....not CAC.... NONE have full and unquestioned certainty of what the hell they say they do. (with the exception of support of business policy reinforcement)
This then, is a true negative.
Nah, I'm ....awful.... close to chucking this hobby that has been with me since Gramma gave me the
1908-S IHC in 1949.
I will make sure that my butt is clear of the door when I leave though.
If you really are disillusioned with the state of things, then I understand where you are coming from. However, I would still recommend to think carefully about fully leaving. Try changing your collecting focus or just continue to assemble items that you like without worrying what others think.
I switched to darkside earlier this year. Better.
But then I saw that damn 1848-CAL quarter eagle and fell off my high horse.
But yeah, "disillusioned" is a good word. I like it. I think it applies.
Sad to say.
Now if only somebody could come up with a scarlet letter "A" (for awful) to BRAND into the plastic.
Wait until it becomes a teenager -- and misses curfew, and sasses back, and won't clean its room, and knows-it-all, and gripes about taking out the trash ! Humph! Then see what those little stickers do!
CAC is symptomatic of a mature numismatic market. Everything dated 1930 and earlier has been graded at least two, possibly three times. Why? Because of changing grading standards over time.
A CAC sticker means that John Albanese, an all around knowledgeable and respected man in the industry, is willing to buy a particular coin when it crosses his desk at CAC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mr. Albanese is in the business of wholesaling coins, primarily Morgans and various gold coins, he does not make money stickering them. The sticker tells any particular buyer that he would purchase said coin in said holder when the specific coin crossed his desk.
The sticker is used by most in the industry in the business as a marketing tool. How much of a premium is the sticker worth? As much as you can get for it from a buyer.
Is this good for the hobby? If you have first shot at attractive coins, it's very good for you. You can get these coins, market them as superior for the grade and see how much of a premium a retail customer will pay for them. If you've bought some nice coins, and held them for ten or twenty years, maybe not.
Why? Because if your coin is nice for the grade, sticker or no sticker, it is probably a good idea to resubmit the coin for regrading. If the coin is stickered, and upgrades, you have to resubmit the coin to CAC again to see if you get a sticker at the higher grade. If the coin gets a plus, you have to send it back to CAC to get it stickered again, as CAC does not recognize the plus designation. As a collector, I prefer to buy the right coin in the right holder at the right price and be done with it. To me, all of this is a nuisance and greatly detracts from the joy I get from the hobby. If I want to make money, it doesn't come from my purchases and sales of coins.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
without Bill's auction bids, the market would be 40% less than what it is today for better coins
Now if only somebody could come up with a scarlet letter "A" (for awful) to BRAND into the plastic.
Or maybe CAC just gets a few wrong... GASP (not targeted at you). I have seen a number of problem coins, particularly with deep scratches that are still distracting even though supposedly "toned over."
For the record, there is no CAC warranty or guarantee. CAC has historically always made competitive bids, but it is free to stop at any time without any legal obligation to warranty anything.
I agree but think it will be more gradual (just due to reluctance to respect reality of stagnant inventory) and unless I miss my guess, far more damaging.
After I get 2 things I ordered which should be here this week, I think I'm done.
????
I Just had a collector send in 10 coins to CAC ranging in value from $5K to $200K, total $500K.
Shipping and insurance > $1200
CAC fees > $200
Penny-wise or pound-foolish?
am I the only one that got a CAC anniversary coffee mug?
.
.> @joebb21 said:
I thought that was what CAC would going to do - make so I could buy coins with their stickers signt unseen. Nope, did not work, I still have to see it in hand although there is a better chance I will like it with a CAC sticker on it.
Best, SH
I fully agree with your statement. But one outcome of CAC is that it helped me to become a better grader, at least to their standards. As I note above, I still need to see a coin in hand to evaluate it, but having that CAC evaluation has definitely helped me evaluate surfaces better.
Best, SH
Does anyone know to whom he wholesales ....most... of the coins to?
I know that it is not Albanese Coins,
http://www.coinace.com
Does he have his own website where these offered coins are sold to the public? Or is it only wholesale?
PM sent.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
There is a somewhat similar trend starting in the card market, one of the big auction houses PWCC is now labeling select cards (PWCC-HE), PWCC certified high end.
https://ebay.com/itm/142619929364
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
It's trendy and you are correct - one should send everything in you are selling now, or you will leave money on the table in most coin areas.
And to celebrate the first 10 years of green beans, and this wonderful discussion about it, I used my new 10 years of CAC mug to enjoy a Tazo wild sweet orange hot tea this evening, and toasted my wife (she drinking DePaz rum) to another 10 years of green bean bliss.......... Ho ho ho!
Best, SH
TPGS were created so that when a coin was described as ms65 it actually was universally accepted in the market to be an ms65. So it was when the grading services first began but as the years went by and gradeflation began to kick in, it become evident that no 2 ms65's were the same anymore. (obviously 2 coins can never be the same-but the idea was that if the TPGS called it an ms65 then "all" could agree it was an ms65)
CAC came in to remake that market specifically for HIMSELF. CAC was not made that you for sure would like it.
Dealers and collectors learned or saw (for those that didnt know) that JA's blessing implied very strongly the coin was solid for the grade and was nice and therefor CAC really took off. There have been other companies that created stickering services afterwards to mimic the cac model but their reputation and eye did not carry as much weight which is why it seems to me they didnt take off the same way.
CAC has become as large and strong as it has because of its recognition and trust in its product.
Many coins are sold through blanchard. otherwise its basically all wholesale- and to whom-that really depends
One merely needs to read between the lines and in spite of cost, in the end... it is simply tuition.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Was that "Ho ho ho!" from Santa or from the Jolly Green Giant?
Smitten with DBLCs.
I can never find beans that look that fresh at the local supermarket!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Both............
Best, SH
If a cent cost me ten million dollars, I would seek the approval of the best in the business, too.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I find it amusing that folks keep referring to the "Correct Opinion" of a Grade as if that weren't an oxymoron.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
There are, instead, certain Consensus Opinions, and there are Dissenters for each specific instance.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Based on personal conversations with JA, he has been convinced many times by one or another of his other graders to change his mind.
Many here would wish CAC might serve as a cop. Their intention is to be a cherry-picker.
Many want CAC to "save" the hobby. It is content to "save" one coin at a time.
Ask any serious dealer if he is willing to enter any coin into an automated inventory at a transaction cost of $13.50.
When prices were higher, he was shipping CAC MS65 Saints at a $65 mark-up.
The TPGs have always had, and will continue to have, a statistically impossible task in grading correctly. The best any reasonable person should likely expect is a self-correcting process (which will also be humanly flawed). Per Ralph Waldo Emerson "There's a crack in everything God has made"
I bought my first $1,000 coin in 1972. I've been watching over the last 45 years to the risks and rewards of $100,000,000 in lifetime non-bullion buy/sells. That would put my guess at having looked at about $5 billion in current value.
I was JA's junior (and only) grader when NGC started, though Mark Salzberg should have had the job in the first place.
I have virtually never bought a coin for stock on someone else's say-so, but might have partnered $10,000,000 (or much more) over the last 45 years. CAC coins are faster sellers at generally more optimal levels.
My observations from being a technical contributor to the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition Committee has surely informed me of the evolutionary changes in grading philosophies.
If this sounds to you like too much "I, I, I" to you, likewise
But I'm a (formerly monster-good) crack-out artist and active trader who's developed into a part of institutional memory. BTW, CAC has decreased my crack-outs dramatically. More and more buyers for coins like the 1902-S pictured in another thread and my opportunities continually decrease.
Technical grading is an ideology.
Market grading is a philosophy.
The philosophy is that enough individual buyers are present to support trackable and "viable" price levels.
There has ever, and always be, a bifurcated market between "OK-ish" and PQ.
And none of my standards need be yours.
LOL, your should only sit in after an auction with 5 top-end EAC dealers and hear them mostly criticize their trading buddies of the past 30+ years for the purchases each made in the past three hours.
Harvey Stack, who felt the loss of personal choice and autonomy for his huge collector base, as he personally helped me with some technical issues as (1987) NGC was being formed (fully knowing it was against his personal tastes and inimical to his existing business model), warned me that it would complicate things, and it would only get worse. Had we but known!
But it got better.
And nobody else's standards need be yours.
I don't "get" toned dollars to any degree other than to note there are general standards that specialists in that area can divine. Take three guys out of this market and premiums go down (let's stipulate) to 600% of bid from 1000%. None of the bid x 200% buyers are affected whatsoever.
But look at it from the macro top-down as well as the micro bottom-up.
Then buy what others might think is not as good a deal. If it makes you personally happy
Screw what I think, or how I grade.
Darn, that is a very informative post to understand and a hard post to "follow." I wish I had composed this post a few minutes faster.
Of course the CAC sticker is helpful. Any one of a number of knowledgeable, well-off, wealthy, well-connected, and well-respected professional coin dealers could have started a sticker service. They still can! For example, Laura S. and James Halperin came to mind. "Wings" is the newest entry.
The sticker is the modern practice of showing a raw coin to all the guys more knowledgeable than you for their opinion before buying it. Now, this occurs with slabs and I'll bet even with CAC stickered slabs.
This sticker thing is nothing new to me. I know a TPGS professional who had indestructible stickers printed in 1987 and was ready to start a company that would only sticker any slab containing a coin graded in the MS ranges that actually had no trace of wear! He intended to price the service for a buck a coin + return postage.
Unfortunately/fortunately he was hired by a TPGS before he could put his plan into operation. Consequently Eagle-Eye was probably the first sticker service. As I understand, these are coins that are properly graded by Rick's standards.
Furthermore, when the naïve fellow suggested that his new boss at the TPGS put true "technical" MS coins into holders with a gold label to separate the wheat from the chaff,...LOL! He said he received a quick lesson why that would kill the value of most of the coins the company already graded. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey get rich is the way it works.
I'll bet if the TPGS started using decimal grades they would take a big chunk of the present profits from CAC. In any case, Joe Blow big dealer could put out an Internet price list and guarantee to purchase any coin with his unique sticker. Walk up to his table, show him a coin, get free opinion and a sticker or not. Nice way to guarantee potential future purchases.
In a nutshell