If 3 graders actually looked that coin over, I'm a Monkey's uncle. This has to be a case where 2 were on a bathroom break or something because they just can't miss by that much.
I send my Morgans to PCGS because I got this kind of illogical result once too often from NGC. If PCGS is grading with out looking too, I'd be on the sidelines too. Interested to see how my current submission fairs.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
@jonruns said:
If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade...that's gambling...and he lost...and now he is pissed off and blaming the grading company...like Insider I trust the full-time TPG guys to be right 99% of the time vs a bunch of forum guys guessing the grade from a photo...if you don't agree with the grade send it back in...
You don’t actually think they get the grade right 99% of the time do you? Why would so many people resubmit? Obviously, we have to give some weight to the fact that the graders have seen it in hand, but they also have to grade very quickly and it is even possible this is a mechanical error.
@KollectorKing said:
I remember when DH was active here, he would ask the coin be sent directly to him for review. Not sure if that is available now.
Can you imagine if everyone who thinks their MS-64 common Morgan is under-graded, starts sends them to David Hall?
But of course, it's an option called CEO review. You check it on your order form & include $100 per coin. Then DH or his designee would review it and...
@FadeToBlack said: "I don't want to step on toes so all I'm gonna say is that this was graded by PCGS before and I believe that contributes to Lee's frustrations.
LOL. Oh go ahead and either you or Lee post the FULL STORY so this thread would have been over long ago and MUCH MORE USEFUL to all of us taking the time to post our opinions.
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "I don't want to step on toes so all I'm gonna say is that this was graded by PCGS before and I believe that contributes to Lee's frustrations.
LOL. Oh go ahead and either you or Lee post the FULL STORY so this thread would have been over long ago and MUCH MORE USEFUL to all of us taking the time to post our opinions.
So, What's the coin's history PLEASE!
"Sorry I don't see how you were able to decifer this:
"If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade.."
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "I don't want to step on toes so all I'm gonna say is that this was graded by PCGS before and I believe that contributes to Lee's frustrations.
LOL. Oh go ahead and either you or Lee post the FULL STORY so this thread would have been over long ago and MUCH MORE USEFUL to all of us taking the time to post our opinions.
So, What's the coin's history PLEASE!
"Sorry I don't see how you were able to decifer this:
"If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade.."
THAT'S HOW!!!
Nope, I was NOT ABLE to "decipher" that conjecture from another member. IMO, the original grade of the coin should have been posted when the MS-64 slab was posted. Anyway, the coin should eventually upgrade.
...shady math adds up though...if you take the new 64, add all the grading and shipping fees, she should equal solid 66 money...they say that “money never sleeps,” however...that money is as awake as Slowpoke Rodríguez after last-call from the tequila bar...slept
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "I don't want to step on toes so all I'm gonna say is that this was graded by PCGS before and I believe that contributes to Lee's frustrations.
LOL. Oh go ahead and either you or Lee post the FULL STORY so this thread would have been over long ago and MUCH MORE USEFUL to all of us taking the time to post our opinions.
So, What's the coin's history PLEASE!
Lee gave me the all clear to talk about it. It was formerly graded PCGS 66 in a newer holder, graded about a year ago if I remember right. He knows his Morgans well, and has a nice collection, so he's not some random jabroni off the street who doesn't know his stuff. He thought it would come back at least a 66, shot at a plus, shot at a 7. He let me look it over. I told him I thought it was a strong 6, shot 7 coin. I told him small variance might bring it back as a 65, but that he was more likely to get a 66 again or a higher grade that he was looking for. I stand by that. He solicited at least one other opinion that I know of, and they agreed it had a good shot at upgrading.
Beyond any reasonable consideration, the coin is not a 64. I sometimes think you think PCGS never makes mistakes, but this coin is a mistake in a 64 holder. It happens, we're all human. I understand Lee's frustration and disgust, and hope he isn't too turned off by this.
First glance without hesitation was a MS65 minimum. Zep heads know their coins...any less would be half of Zep at Indy in '95 and I was there...LeeBone's coin is a Madison Square Garden circa 1973 quality MS66...trust me.
Sounds like LeeBone chose Regrade not Reconsideration as The Stairway to Heaven for his 66...turned out to be a Heartbreaker...now he is Dazed and Confused...
@jonruns said:
Sounds like LeeBone chose Regrade not Reconsideration as The Stairway to Heaven for his 66...turned out to be a Heartbreaker...now he is Dazed and Confused...
I spent a couple of hours today reviewing (by photos) coins from two auction sites and all I saw were vastly overgraded and badly stained copper. Of course most of the mistakes end up in auctions.
Then to see this, I'm no longer sending in any common 65-66 type morgans, just not worth the expense.
I only send crossovers or reconsideration candidates .
First glance without hesitation was a MS65 minimum. Zep heads know their coins...any less would be half of Zep at Indy in '95 and I was there...LeeBone's coin is a Madison Square Garden circa 1973 quality MS66...trust me.
Lee, shake it off. sh*t happens. Don't pack it in.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"He thought it would come back at least a 66, shot at a plus, shot at a 7."
So he figures (as did all of us) that he has no downside and a chance to upgrade. Is there a big price difference between a 66 and 66+?
"Beyond any reasonable consideration, the coin is not a 64. I sometimes think you think PCGS never makes mistakes, but this coin is a mistake in a 64 holder."
No one sees why the 64 grade in the image. Should at least be a 65 min.
Now as to how I feel about the TPGS and their error rate. I'll paraphrase the message from an advanced grading instructor given in the first ten minutes of the class. We are not here to tell stories about your experiences with TPGS. You all have them and it would take up our entire week and you'll learn nothing. Let me sum it up very simply: "We can find examples of under graded, over graded, and correctly graded coins in every major TPGS holder. In my experience, I have found that this fellow knows exactly what he is talking about.
If it helps you can send it to me, I would love to add that MS64 to my silver type set even though it is just a common date!
Then it will be out of sight, out of mind and you can concentrate on the balance if your collection.
Ok, beyond my better judgement I'll try to sum up my frustrations.
I'm a collector and nothing more. I collect because it makes me happy. I have a wide interest in all US coins. Name a Key Date in most, not all, Series and I'll likely tell you I have it. I've been collecting Morgans for almost 30 yrs and I think I have a pretty good idea of grading having studied many holdered Morgans over the years. No, I am not a professional grader, but I can almost look at a certified PCGS Morgan in hand and tell you the grade. I don't say this with any Series except the Morgan Dollar.
I've submitted numerous coins to our host and, on a whole, have been happy with the results. Yes, the coin in question is a measly 79-S, super common, dime a dozen so to speak. Stricter on grading because of it, yes, I know that. When I tell you I've seen many, yes many, 67 79-S's that are not as nice as this, I'm only calling it as I've seen it. No BS.
Yes, my coin was graded by PCGS as a 66. Should I have cracked the holder and sent it in raw? Not really a great risk in monetary value by any stretch one way or another. 64 to 67 money is a difference, but not compared to some of my other coins in one grade to the next. It was merely getting said coin into where I believe it could and should ultimately be, back into it's 66 tomb or maybe into a fancier casket. This was my honest thought as I took to cracking the slab.
I have read everyone's comments here. Thanks for your interest. I do agree that it is basically impossible to judge a coin from pics, I get that. I really have been thinking about being done with collecting as of recent for a couple of reasons though. Getting older makes me sit back and think, "What am I really holding on to my collection for anyway?" I might just keep 10 of my favorites and sell everything else. This may have helped me make up my mind to start liquidating.
I do enjoy this forum and most people here. Some are just annoying anymore. Some of the more recent members have been less than helpful and harder to take.
Maybe with the money I get from selling I can start working on building a time machine to go back and see Led Zeppelin in Concert. Thanks for the Zep references, really made me smile.
Well anyway I hope this clears things up a bit. Sorry I bailed on my own thread but I'm over it now.
There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece.
Everyone gets tired and the quality of their work diminishes. This is easily studied and proven in occupations across the board. It’s why they put limits on pilots & truck drivers. It’s also true that those who are tired underestimate its impact and overestimate their ability to deal with it.
That said, it’s unlikely that’s what happened to the OP and his coin.
Pretty unlikely that 2 graders and a finalizer were all dead tired around the same time.
I imagine they all come to work & go home around the same time. Someone’s coin gets to be in the last box of the day on Friday. There has to be some explanation, right? I’m left wondering if it isn’t a mechanical error. We’ve certainly seen plenty of examples of that. Imagine if the graders actually gave it a 67 and it was just entered incorrectly.
@braddick said:
There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece.
YES!! In fact I would send it to CAC for sure, and KEEP it as is.
I bet it becomes rare in its own right, as graded, and will always be remembered as that crack out that cracked the forum.
Keep us posted - this is a great read.
Just have to wait till they are so busy that they don’t have the time to play around. I’m sure if this was sent in during busy season you would of got the 66.
@AngryTurtle said:
If it was me I would continue the experiment and send to CAC.
I have read this same thing here a few times. A Gold CAC 64 is still worth less than a 66. Send it back to PCGS and see what happens this time if it is being sent anywhere. My advice, do not send anything in right now, it is ridiculous lately.
@braddick said: "There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece."
Disagree for two reasons:
It makes a top TPGS look like EDIT.
There can be a lot to learn from this piece.
Let's twist a theory around. Let's say the graders were fresh and they had tons of coins to grade that day and "trashed" the coin for some reason. Additionally, a mechanical error is quite possible too. I would send the coin back with a letter to DH and ask him very nicely to explain the grade. Sugar works better than salt and I'll bet Mr. Hall has a sweet tooth.
"I would send the coin back with a letter to DH and ask him very nicely to explain the grade. Sugar works better than salt and I'll bet Mr. Hall has a sweet tooth."
Not meaning to "ramble on" about this, but sometimes "what is and what should never be" are two different things. "In the light" of day can we agree that when "going to California" with a coin sometimes there are "good times and bad times"? A lot of folks here have a "whole lotta love" for this coin. Is this a candidate for reconsideration?
@FadeToBlack said:
I was poking around and I noticed the previous 70ish cert numbers are all $20 Saints. Thought that was odd. There's also nothing after his for a while.
Also note that the vast majority of these Saints were graded 64...
@braddick said:
There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece.
Before one "suggests" it gets send back asking DH to take a look at it, one should know how things work there...at least for the past handful of years. I don't recall DH looking at them like that anymore. Now, DW may be willing to help out and take a look.....
That said, it's always "enjoyable" when some members, that have never seen the coin in person, talk like they know more about the coin and the grade, BASED ON THE SLABBED GRADE, then any of the members that have seen it.
Lee's not new. Not to the forums and not to collecting. While people can always say "ownership adds a point", I just don't see that coin in a 64 holder. Not even if there were the disturbance on the obv field that I think may have been there..... 65/65+, yes, at the lowest, but then, I'm just looking at a picture. Lee has it in hand. Yes, so too, did the graders. 99% of the posters here didn't though.
So, either there is a HUGE learning point here (ie...everyone is missing something) or there was a mistake made. Given that it was graded within, roughly, the past year, by the same service, at a higher grade....well..........
So, at the end of the day, the rub seems to be this: When one thinks the grade is too low, one is best to send it in, in holder, for a grade review. Crack it out and all bets are off (understandably though as the TPGS has no idea if anything has transpired with it, purposeful or not, once cracked)
@TommyType said:
After looking at the larger image, to me the "most distracting" part of the coin is under the eagle's wings on the reverse. Hard to tell if those are die lines, or what. Some of the same are apparent in front of Liberty's mouth. Might those be holding the coin from the grade you were expecting?
As for my GTG.....I'll go with 66 if those are simply raised die lines on a freshly polished die. But they may prevent it from going much higher(?) (I honestly don't know how they deal with "distractions inherent in the die")
Here it is with much magnification...
I'd like to see a large, clear, tilted photo of the area in the field in front of the nose. Looks like moderate hairlines rather than die polish, and to the graders, worth a couple points netted off of the otherwise easy MS66..
When I first saw this photo, I was not thinking die polish. I was thinking a planchet with heavy hairlines before striking instead. I've seen the same pattern on a 1951 dcam dime.
I don't think it is hairlines because they "dead end" into the devices.
Interesting piece.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Comments
Sorry I don't see how you were able to decifer this:
"If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade.."
If 3 graders actually looked that coin over, I'm a Monkey's uncle. This has to be a case where 2 were on a bathroom break or something because they just can't miss by that much.
I send my Morgans to PCGS because I got this kind of illogical result once too often from NGC. If PCGS is grading with out looking too, I'd be on the sidelines too. Interested to see how my current submission fairs.
You don’t actually think they get the grade right 99% of the time do you? Why would so many people resubmit? Obviously, we have to give some weight to the fact that the graders have seen it in hand, but they also have to grade very quickly and it is even possible this is a mechanical error.
Can you imagine if everyone who thinks their MS-64 common Morgan is under-graded, starts sends them to David Hall?
So answer the question. Was it cracked out and sent back in? What was the former grade?
But of course, it's an option called CEO review. You check it on your order form & include $100 per coin. Then DH or his designee would review it and...
LOL. Oh go ahead and either you or Lee post the FULL STORY so this thread would have been over long ago and MUCH MORE USEFUL to all of us taking the time to post our opinions.
So, What's the coin's history PLEASE!
"Sorry I don't see how you were able to decifer this:
"If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade.."
THAT'S HOW!!!
Nope, I was NOT ABLE to "decipher" that conjecture from another member. IMO, the original grade of the coin should have been posted when the MS-64 slab was posted. Anyway, the coin should eventually upgrade.
Hoard the keys.
64? Did they grade that over the punch bowl at the holiday party?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
...shady math adds up though...if you take the new 64, add all the grading and shipping fees, she should equal solid 66 money...they say that “money never sleeps,” however...that money is as awake as Slowpoke Rodríguez after last-call from the tequila bar...slept
First glance without hesitation was a MS65 minimum. Zep heads know their coins...any less would be half of Zep at Indy in '95 and I was there...LeeBone's coin is a Madison Square Garden circa 1973 quality MS66...trust me.
Sounds like LeeBone chose Regrade not Reconsideration as The Stairway to Heaven for his 66...turned out to be a Heartbreaker...now he is Dazed and Confused...
No my collector friend...Ramble On!
I spent a couple of hours today reviewing (by photos) coins from two auction sites and all I saw were vastly overgraded and badly stained copper. Of course most of the mistakes end up in auctions.
Then to see this, I'm no longer sending in any common 65-66 type morgans, just not worth the expense.
I only send crossovers or reconsideration candidates .
Lee, sorry about your submission, your Morgan is no 64.
But, I have to say that reading about coins and listening to Zeppelin made my night....
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Lee, shake it off. sh*t happens. Don't pack it in.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Agreed!..don't give up, move on. I gave up on that game due to such debacles years ago. On various levels. Many heartaches, wasted energy and costs
.
That's right....bring it out....
!!!
Then bring it on Home...brother! Zep special, sorry....
66
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Last Zep post- celebration day...here's to '66...!!!!
@FadeToBlack said:
"It was formerly graded PCGS 66."
"He thought it would come back at least a 66, shot at a plus, shot at a 7."
So he figures (as did all of us) that he has no downside and a chance to upgrade. Is there a big price difference between a 66 and 66+?
No one sees why the 64 grade in the image. Should at least be a 65 min.
Now as to how I feel about the TPGS and their error rate. I'll paraphrase the message from an advanced grading instructor given in the first ten minutes of the class. We are not here to tell stories about your experiences with TPGS. You all have them and it would take up our entire week and you'll learn nothing. Let me sum it up very simply: "We can find examples of under graded, over graded, and correctly graded coins in every major TPGS holder. In my experience, I have found that this fellow
knows exactly what he is talking about. 
If it helps you can send it to me, I would love to add that MS64 to my silver type set even though it is just a common date!
Then it will be out of sight, out of mind and you can concentrate on the balance if your collection.
Must have been a crack out and not a regrade. This was the fatal error in the game.
Latin American Collection
Ok, beyond my better judgement I'll try to sum up my frustrations.
I'm a collector and nothing more. I collect because it makes me happy. I have a wide interest in all US coins. Name a Key Date in most, not all, Series and I'll likely tell you I have it. I've been collecting Morgans for almost 30 yrs and I think I have a pretty good idea of grading having studied many holdered Morgans over the years. No, I am not a professional grader, but I can almost look at a certified PCGS Morgan in hand and tell you the grade. I don't say this with any Series except the Morgan Dollar.
I've submitted numerous coins to our host and, on a whole, have been happy with the results. Yes, the coin in question is a measly 79-S, super common, dime a dozen so to speak. Stricter on grading because of it, yes, I know that. When I tell you I've seen many, yes many, 67 79-S's that are not as nice as this, I'm only calling it as I've seen it. No BS.
Yes, my coin was graded by PCGS as a 66. Should I have cracked the holder and sent it in raw? Not really a great risk in monetary value by any stretch one way or another. 64 to 67 money is a difference, but not compared to some of my other coins in one grade to the next. It was merely getting said coin into where I believe it could and should ultimately be, back into it's 66 tomb or maybe into a fancier casket. This was my honest thought as I took to cracking the slab.
I have read everyone's comments here. Thanks for your interest. I do agree that it is basically impossible to judge a coin from pics, I get that. I really have been thinking about being done with collecting as of recent for a couple of reasons though. Getting older makes me sit back and think, "What am I really holding on to my collection for anyway?" I might just keep 10 of my favorites and sell everything else. This may have helped me make up my mind to start liquidating.
I do enjoy this forum and most people here. Some are just annoying anymore. Some of the more recent members have been less than helpful and harder to take.
Maybe with the money I get from selling I can start working on building a time machine to go back and see Led Zeppelin in Concert. Thanks for the Zep references, really made me smile.
Well anyway I hope this clears things up a bit. Sorry I bailed on my own thread but I'm over it now.
Peace
There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece.
peacockcoins
Pretty unlikely that 2 graders and a finalizer were all dead tired around the same time.
I imagine they all come to work & go home around the same time. Someone’s coin gets to be in the last box of the day on Friday. There has to be some explanation, right? I’m left wondering if it isn’t a mechanical error. We’ve certainly seen plenty of examples of that. Imagine if the graders actually gave it a 67 and it was just entered incorrectly.
If true, they should fix it for free.
If it was me I would continue the experiment and send to CAC.
YES!! In fact I would send it to CAC for sure, and KEEP it as is.
I bet it becomes rare in its own right, as graded, and will always be remembered as that crack out that cracked the forum.
Keep us posted - this is a great read.
Just have to wait till they are so busy that they don’t have the time to play around. I’m sure if this was sent in during busy season you would of got the 66.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I have read this same thing here a few times. A Gold CAC 64 is still worth less than a 66. Send it back to PCGS and see what happens this time if it is being sent anywhere. My advice, do not send anything in right now, it is ridiculous lately.
@braddick said: "There's something to be said about owning the finest and best looking PCGS MS64 (common date) Morgan on the planet. I'ld leave it just as is, if for anything it's a terrific conversation piece."
Disagree for two reasons:
Let's twist a theory around. Let's say the graders were fresh and they had tons of coins to grade that day and "trashed" the coin for some reason. Additionally, a mechanical error is quite possible too. I would send the coin back with a letter to DH and ask him very nicely to explain the grade. Sugar works better than salt and I'll bet Mr. Hall has a sweet tooth.
"I would send the coin back with a letter to DH and ask him very nicely to explain the grade. Sugar works better than salt and I'll bet Mr. Hall has a sweet tooth."
and a Benjamin won't hurt.
Not meaning to "ramble on" about this, but sometimes "what is and what should never be" are two different things. "In the light" of day can we agree that when "going to California" with a coin sometimes there are "good times and bad times"? A lot of folks here have a "whole lotta love" for this coin. Is this a candidate for reconsideration?
Don't let it bother you LeeBone. In the world of submissions things like this happen.
Nice coin btw.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Also note that the vast majority of these Saints were graded 64...
Could be a great Buying tool!
Before one "suggests" it gets send back asking DH to take a look at it, one should know how things work there...at least for the past handful of years. I don't recall DH looking at them like that anymore. Now, DW may be willing to help out and take a look.....
That said, it's always "enjoyable" when some members, that have never seen the coin in person, talk like they know more about the coin and the grade, BASED ON THE SLABBED GRADE, then any of the members that have seen it.
Lee's not new. Not to the forums and not to collecting. While people can always say "ownership adds a point", I just don't see that coin in a 64 holder. Not even if there were the disturbance on the obv field that I think may have been there..... 65/65+, yes, at the lowest, but then, I'm just looking at a picture. Lee has it in hand. Yes, so too, did the graders. 99% of the posters here didn't though.
So, either there is a HUGE learning point here (ie...everyone is missing something) or there was a mistake made. Given that it was graded within, roughly, the past year, by the same service, at a higher grade....well..........
So, at the end of the day, the rub seems to be this: When one thinks the grade is too low, one is best to send it in, in holder, for a grade review. Crack it out and all bets are off
(understandably though as the TPGS has no idea if anything has transpired with it, purposeful or not, once cracked)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
4 and 7 are right next to each other on the numpad...
Now I know all my 64's are typos
Collector, occasional seller
IMO the coin is not a 64 nor is it a 67
So my guess of 65+++ is good.
When I first saw this photo, I was not thinking die polish. I was thinking a planchet with heavy hairlines before striking instead. I've seen the same pattern on a 1951 dcam dime.
I don't think it is hairlines because they "dead end" into the devices.
Interesting piece.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!