I saw this image on the Coinfacts page a day or two ago. I had to double check the grade that was assigned.
They must be using the 1986 grading set to determine grades
And die polish lines are quite common on 1879-s Morgans.
Well I personally would have graded it a 66+ as a bunch of others have already said. It certainly has the "I want to be a 67" look, but it just has a little bit too much minor chatter. I bet she is a very flashy semi PL in hand with really nice frosty devices. My gut is that they gave it a 65, which this does not deserve.
You want to see THE NICEST 64 IN THE WORLD...here she is!!
Is there such a thing as a Gold CAC+?
Really, some grader, or 3, were having BAD days when this passed through their hands. Simply ridiculous. Nothing more.
I love it when dealers sell me their 64's that look like this at 64 grey sheet prices.. It's a tough one for you, but I would certainly either send it to CAC or crack it right out of that holder. Any chance it was a mechanical error?
ok, definitely some minor chatter on the cheek that isn't really visible in the TV...still hard to see how this isn't in at least a 65+ holder at worst.
Seems about right. Coins getting 1-2 grades under these days. This is why I laugh when I keep hearing gradeflation. Crack about any coin from the old holders right now and it WILL go down.
Look behind the head in the right field. The coin is hairlined or chemically altered. Also, look at the dark "band" in the field between the stars. That area is void of the haze.
I have found that in 90+% of the cases when you see a Washington Quarter, Mercury dime, or Morgan dollar that looks like a "gem" in a 64 slab, the coin is hairlined. Even a very slight patch on the cheek (not visible in this image - just the fields) of a dime or quarter "kills it." Most collectors do not tip and rotate (at the same time) their coins under the light properly so they never see them.
@FadeToBlack said:
As I have said, I saw this in hand. I'd like to think I know what I'm doing with US coins, especially Morgans. This is a 66 minimum. Blows my mind it's in a 64 holder.
Makes me nervous about the 15ish coins I have in right now.
It's too bad someone here does not own the actual coin. I trust the opinion of the TPGS over 99% of us. Look, a TPGS wants business. It is in their best interests to push the grade of a coin to the max. Then everyone is happy. IMO, there is no way a coin that looks this nice is going to receive a grade of MS-64 unless it has "market acceptable" problems.
I've written before that I've been in a few grading classes over the years. I'll repeat what I posted: From what I've seen, most collectors do not examine coins properly and very many don't know what to look for anyway.
At least here I expect most of us to know just enough not make the "cut" as a professional coin grader for our host, and we know more than the average joe. That's why it gets real old listening to all the "Ex-Perts" damning the TPGS.
The coin looks like an MS-66+ to 67. We were all correct in our opinions. Unfortunately, in spite of what it looks like in the image, folks above the pay grade of many of us here think it's worth MS-64 money. I think all of us would buy it at that price. Isn't that what grading is all about? Value.
This is the worst of the worst ever returned to me from our own. If this is going to be the direction they're heading I'm out. Totally. Done. Adios. See ya. Bye. Selling everything and calling it quits. I'll move on from coins and be done. I understand it's a common date Morgan, that's not the point. It's way more than that. Way deeper. Sorry, just had enough.
Photos look 66/67. Coin graded 64. I see a few possibilities:
Coin has an issue not easily seen in photos and not fully appreciated by the OP (rims, hairlines, funny surface, etc)
Mechanical error
The graders just blew it
Unfortunately from only a photo there isn’t anything forumites can do to further explain it. Over the years there have been several cases like this and usually, but not always, the first explanation is the correct one. You can always take it to a major show & ask a few folks.
I have seen a couple of coins where I truly think the graders saw DPLs as hairlines. Shouldn’t happen..... but people do get tired.
Where was the coin prior to this grading event? Raw? In another holder? Other?
@BryceM said:
Photos look 66/67. Coin graded 64. I see a few possibilities:
Coin has an issue not easily seen in photos and not fully appreciated by the OP (rims, hairlines, funny surface, etc)
Mechanical error
The graders just blew it
Unfortunately from only a photo there isn’t anything forumites can do to further explain it. Over the years there have been several cases like this and usually, but not always, the first explanation is the correct one. You can always take it to a major show & ask a few folks.
I have seen a couple of coins where I truly think the graders saw DPLs as hairlines. Shouldn’t happen..... but people do get tired.
Where was the coin prior to this grading event? Raw? In another holder? Other?
I agree with your comment until I get to "people get tired". As a professional standard bred horse race driver and trainer I was tired many times BUT did not allow that to affect the quality of my work for myself or my owners, we needed to eat also.....just saying I'm speaking for myself....what may have hurt this coin is what I would call rim damage on the reverse above the A in state which I did not see until I blew the pic up.
Clearly you have a number of options: take the coin to a show and get some opinions from some other people...crack it out and send it in again...send it across the street to get their opinion...send it to CAC and have a phone conversation with JA...
It's hard enough to grade thru plastic...grading from photos is almost impossible...if you crack it out and send it in 3x and it comes back three times as a 64...it's a 64...
Personally I'm not sending any coins in for grading until after the holidays and the fires are all put out...too many distractions on the West Coast right now...
Wow, I have a 98-P that's almost as nice I was thinking about sending in on my next sub but I think I will wait. Sorry for your bad luck. Is there something going on with the left wing tip as we view the coin?
Well... late to the party again (action seems to happen at night and I am a morning guy - mostly). I would have said 67 on this coin... and yes, I see the noted issues and the DPL'S.... I would have said 67, but certainly would not have been surprised at 66... I like Morgans and that one impressed me.... I would either crack it, or send it in for reconsideration... for me, a crackout would be the best option. I say reconsideration since it could be a mechanical error in labeling. Cheers, RickO
The grade must be based on something, not an arbitrary undergrade. If you have three graders, then a finalizer, you probably have a fair estimation of objectivity. Grader 1: 65; Grader 2: 64; Grader 3: 66. Finalizer sees "issue", 64.
Everyone gets tired and the quality of their work diminishes. This is easily studied and proven in occupations across the board. It’s why they put limits on pilots & truck drivers. It’s also true that those who are tired underestimate its impact and overestimate their ability to deal with it.
That said, it’s unlikely that’s what happened to the OP and his coin.
@LeeBone said:
This is the worst of the worst ever returned to me from our own. If this is going to be the direction they're heading I'm out. Totally. Done. Adios. See ya. Bye. Selling everything and calling it quits. I'll move on from coins and be done. I understand it's a common date Morgan, that's not the point. It's way more than that. Way deeper. Sorry, just had enough.
I have felt the same way this year after a few of my submissions (raw and re-grades) didn't meet my expectations.
It's a hobby for me, not a business, so I reevaluated what I was doing to reduce the 'stress' of my hobby.
In my case, i did the following.
1) I stopped cracking out coins to submit again, unless the coin was in a problem holder and I think it might straight grade.
2) If trying to cross, leave it the existing holder. If it crosses at grade and is worth the additional expense, i will try it again as a re-grade.
3) If the potential upgrade is not multiples of the grading costs, it gets one shot at a re-grade, then leave it as is. Even if the coin appears to be a 'lock' upgrade, it's a double slap in the face to get it back in the same grade and be out the additional grading fees.
4) Regrade submissions in holder, can and do get upgrades. And I don't get any back in a problem holder or a lower grade. And at least I got a nice Trueview of the coin.
My latest submission was an Express re-grade of 14 coins.
2 upgraded, so I was out $1000 in grading and shipping and got a change in market value of at least $2000.
A small victory
Wow, brutal. I think I'll keep my coins as is for awhile here.
On a similar note has CAC been a little tighter recently? I got crushed this past week only hitting on 2/10. 3 were gold coins which I know can be tough but they were beauties I thought I'd get beans on 1-2 there and of the other 5 that missed I thought 2 were slam dunks and 3 I knew were long shots but they were worth trying value-wise.
I totally agree with your statement it's unlikely the graders were tired in this case.
But it is a fact across the board that there is a difference between being tired and be exhausted.
Eye appeal and technical grade are two different things...if you are a collector and like the eye appeal not sure why it matters what the number is on the slab...IMHO when collectors start re-submitting coins to get higher grades they are no longer pure collectors and they are starting to engage in speculation...
@TommyType said:
After looking at the larger image, to me the "most distracting" part of the coin is under the eagle's wings on the reverse. Hard to tell if those are die lines, or what. Some of the same are apparent in front of Liberty's mouth. Might those be holding the coin from the grade you were expecting?
As for my GTG.....I'll go with 66 if those are simply raised die lines on a freshly polished die. But they may prevent it from going much higher(?) (I honestly don't know how they deal with "distractions inherent in the die")
Here it is with much magnification...
I'd like to see a large, clear, tilted photo of the area in the field in front of the nose. Looks like moderate hairlines rather than die polish, and to the graders, worth a couple points netted off of the otherwise easy MS66..
@BryceM said:
Photos look 66/67. Coin graded 64. I see a few possibilities:
Coin has an issue not easily seen in photos and not fully appreciated by the OP (rims, hairlines, funny surface, etc)
Mechanical error
The graders just blew it
Unfortunately from only a photo there isn’t anything forumites can do to further explain it. Over the years there have been several cases like this and usually, but not always, the first explanation is the correct one. You can always take it to a major show & ask a few folks.
I have seen a couple of coins where I truly think the graders saw DPLs as hairlines. Shouldn’t happen..... but people do get tired.
Where was the coin prior to this grading event? Raw? In another holder? Other?
Yes, I have had coins that had small areas of die polish that I think got knocked down because of it. I'm not sure if the graders just don't like it or think it detracts from the coin or mistook for hairlines.
My thought on the coin is that there might be a long thin hairline that we can't see from the picture.
They HATE those as we all know.
The second set of pics makes it look much different. Maybe they wanna see more mint luster, in addition to mark free surfaces, for them to price it a gem right now. Prices are down, and who really knows...
@jonruns said:
Eye appeal and technical grade are two different things...if you are a collector and like the eye appeal not sure why it matters what the number is on the slab...IMHO when collectors start re-submitting coins to get higher grades they are no longer pure collectors and they are starting to engage in speculation...
I was a collector that has become a speculator in order to avoid a bad financial outcome.
I'm sorry to say there is more truth than fiction in my statement
If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade...that's gambling...and he lost...and now he is pissed off and blaming the grading company...like Insider I trust the full-time TPG guys to be right 99% of the time vs a bunch of forum guys guessing the grade from a photo...if you don't agree with the grade send it back in...
Comments
I saw this image on the Coinfacts page a day or two ago. I had to double check the grade that was assigned.
They must be using the 1986 grading set to determine grades
And die polish lines are quite common on 1879-s Morgans.
Well I saw it on Facebook, Saturday Night Live, and OPRAH and I still don't know what it graded.
The suspense is killing me and I'm very old and the OP could be charged with MURDER if he doesn't reveal it during 2017,
My first thought was 67, a nice looking coin. Must have graded much lower from your comments. Let's see what they gave her.
Tons of 67's out there looking just like this coin.
I wouldn't have any problem seeing it in a 67 holder, but I suppose I would understand if the rim ding kept it in the 66-66+ zone.
Well I personally would have graded it a 66+ as a bunch of others have already said. It certainly has the "I want to be a 67" look, but it just has a little bit too much minor chatter. I bet she is a very flashy semi PL in hand with really nice frosty devices. My gut is that they gave it a 65, which this does not deserve.
64+
You want to see THE NICEST 64 IN THE WORLD...here she is!!
Is there such a thing as a Gold CAC+?
Really, some grader, or 3, were having BAD days when this passed through their hands. Simply ridiculous. Nothing more.
She is a beautiful looking 64!!!
I'm seeing a CAC sticker on this.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
Boy, that is a shocker!
I'm sorry for your loss......
Makes me want to not look forward to receiving my grades on my current submission.
I love it when dealers sell me their 64's that look like this at 64 grey sheet prices.. It's a tough one for you, but I would certainly either send it to CAC or crack it right out of that holder. Any chance it was a mechanical error?
ok, definitely some minor chatter on the cheek that isn't really visible in the TV...still hard to see how this isn't in at least a 65+ holder at worst.
Seems about right. Coins getting 1-2 grades under these days. This is why I laugh when I keep hearing gradeflation. Crack about any coin from the old holders right now and it WILL go down.
What is the story with the coin? Was it a crackout hoping for a higher grade?
Look behind the head in the right field. The coin is hairlined or chemically altered. Also, look at the dark "band" in the field between the stars. That area is void of the haze.
I have found that in 90+% of the cases when you see a Washington Quarter, Mercury dime, or Morgan dollar that looks like a "gem" in a 64 slab, the coin is hairlined. Even a very slight patch on the cheek (not visible in this image - just the fields) of a dime or quarter "kills it." Most collectors do not tip and rotate (at the same time) their coins under the light properly so they never see them.
I see why they are looking for graders. That is just not right.
Yes, gold cac for sure...
bob
PS: just cancelled my PCGS show next week. Going to wait for the move to settle down first.
Wow! I'd love to have a drawer full of 64's that looked like that.
@!#$%^&* the system..
It's too bad someone here does not own the actual coin. I trust the opinion of the TPGS over 99% of us. Look, a TPGS wants business. It is in their best interests to push the grade of a coin to the max. Then everyone is happy. IMO, there is no way a coin that looks this nice is going to receive a grade of MS-64 unless it has "market acceptable" problems.
I've written before that I've been in a few grading classes over the years. I'll repeat what I posted: From what I've seen, most collectors do not examine coins properly and very many don't know what to look for anyway.
At least here I expect most of us to know just enough not make the "cut" as a professional coin grader for our host, and we know more than the average joe. That's why it gets real old listening to all the "Ex-Perts" damning the TPGS.
The coin looks like an MS-66+ to 67. We were all correct in our opinions. Unfortunately, in spite of what it looks like in the image, folks above the pay grade of many of us here think it's worth MS-64 money. I think all of us would buy it at that price. Isn't that what grading is all about? Value.
This is the worst of the worst ever returned to me from our own. If this is going to be the direction they're heading I'm out. Totally. Done. Adios. See ya. Bye. Selling everything and calling it quits. I'll move on from coins and be done. I understand it's a common date Morgan, that's not the point. It's way more than that. Way deeper. Sorry, just had enough.
Nice looking 64
64????
PCGS owes you a refund.
Photos look 66/67. Coin graded 64. I see a few possibilities:
Unfortunately from only a photo there isn’t anything forumites can do to further explain it. Over the years there have been several cases like this and usually, but not always, the first explanation is the correct one. You can always take it to a major show & ask a few folks.
I have seen a couple of coins where I truly think the graders saw DPLs as hairlines. Shouldn’t happen..... but people do get tired.
Where was the coin prior to this grading event? Raw? In another holder? Other?
.
I agree with your comment until I get to "people get tired". As a professional standard bred horse race driver and trainer I was tired many times BUT did not allow that to affect the quality of my work for myself or my owners, we needed to eat also.....just saying I'm speaking for myself....what may have hurt this coin is what I would call rim damage on the reverse above the A in state which I did not see until I blew the pic up.
Clearly you have a number of options: take the coin to a show and get some opinions from some other people...crack it out and send it in again...send it across the street to get their opinion...send it to CAC and have a phone conversation with JA...
It's hard enough to grade thru plastic...grading from photos is almost impossible...if you crack it out and send it in 3x and it comes back three times as a 64...it's a 64...
Personally I'm not sending any coins in for grading until after the holidays and the fires are all put out...too many distractions on the West Coast right now...
Wow, I have a 98-P that's almost as nice I was thinking about sending in on my next sub but I think I will wait. Sorry for your bad luck. Is there something going on with the left wing tip as we view the coin?
Well... late to the party again (action seems to happen at night and I am a morning guy - mostly). I would have said 67 on this coin... and yes, I see the noted issues and the DPL'S.... I would have said 67, but certainly would not have been surprised at 66... I like Morgans and that one impressed me.... I would either crack it, or send it in for reconsideration... for me, a crackout would be the best option. I say reconsideration since it could be a mechanical error in labeling. Cheers, RickO
The grade must be based on something, not an arbitrary undergrade. If you have three graders, then a finalizer, you probably have a fair estimation of objectivity. Grader 1: 65; Grader 2: 64; Grader 3: 66. Finalizer sees "issue", 64.
Not the best cheek frost for a superb gem,
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I would invest a few bucks and a few days and send it to CAC,
Gold sticker candidate.
@Jimnight
Everyone gets tired and the quality of their work diminishes. This is easily studied and proven in occupations across the board. It’s why they put limits on pilots & truck drivers. It’s also true that those who are tired underestimate its impact and overestimate their ability to deal with it.
That said, it’s unlikely that’s what happened to the OP and his coin.
I have felt the same way this year after a few of my submissions (raw and re-grades) didn't meet my expectations.
It's a hobby for me, not a business, so I reevaluated what I was doing to reduce the 'stress' of my hobby.
In my case, i did the following.
1) I stopped cracking out coins to submit again, unless the coin was in a problem holder and I think it might straight grade.
2) If trying to cross, leave it the existing holder. If it crosses at grade and is worth the additional expense, i will try it again as a re-grade.
3) If the potential upgrade is not multiples of the grading costs, it gets one shot at a re-grade, then leave it as is. Even if the coin appears to be a 'lock' upgrade, it's a double slap in the face to get it back in the same grade and be out the additional grading fees.
4) Regrade submissions in holder, can and do get upgrades. And I don't get any back in a problem holder or a lower grade. And at least I got a nice Trueview of the coin.
My latest submission was an Express re-grade of 14 coins.
2 upgraded, so I was out $1000 in grading and shipping and got a change in market value of at least $2000.
A small victory
10000Lakes -- very helpful advice...thanks!!! - Jon
Wow, brutal. I think I'll keep my coins as is for awhile here.
On a similar note has CAC been a little tighter recently? I got crushed this past week only hitting on 2/10. 3 were gold coins which I know can be tough but they were beauties I thought I'd get beans on 1-2 there and of the other 5 that missed I thought 2 were slam dunks and 3 I knew were long shots but they were worth trying value-wise.
I was going to guess MS65, because the die polish kills the luster - but not fine enough to make it PL.
You probably could get a gold CAC
@BryceM
I totally agree with your statement it's unlikely the graders were tired in this case.
But it is a fact across the board that there is a difference between being tired and be exhausted.
I remember when DH was active here, he would ask the coin be sent directly to him for review. Not sure if that is available now.
Eye appeal and technical grade are two different things...if you are a collector and like the eye appeal not sure why it matters what the number is on the slab...IMHO when collectors start re-submitting coins to get higher grades they are no longer pure collectors and they are starting to engage in speculation...
I'd like to see a large, clear, tilted photo of the area in the field in front of the nose. Looks like moderate hairlines rather than die polish, and to the graders, worth a couple points netted off of the otherwise easy MS66..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes, I have had coins that had small areas of die polish that I think got knocked down because of it. I'm not sure if the graders just don't like it or think it detracts from the coin or mistook for hairlines.
My thought on the coin is that there might be a long thin hairline that we can't see from the picture.
They HATE those as we all know.
The second set of pics makes it look much different. Maybe they wanna see more mint luster, in addition to mark free surfaces, for them to price it a gem right now. Prices are down, and who really knows...
Was this a crackout?
I was a collector that has become a speculator in order to avoid a bad financial outcome.
I'm sorry to say there is more truth than fiction in my statement
If I read between the lines the OP cracked out the coin of a 65 or 66 holder in the hopes of a better grade...that's gambling...and he lost...and now he is pissed off and blaming the grading company...like Insider I trust the full-time TPG guys to be right 99% of the time vs a bunch of forum guys guessing the grade from a photo...if you don't agree with the grade send it back in...