I'm curious, are notes from the grading room regarding a cert number kept? If so, can't the OP just call customer service and ask for the notes to be reviewed on that cert number to verify if that is indeed what was given, or to show that a mechanical error indeed occur? I know I would be calling customer service first thing in the morning to check. If it's a mechanical error, and that has been my suspicion since the reveal, then CS can get the ball rolling to getting it fixed. Plus a phone call is far less expensive then sending back in.
Some of the comments in this thread really make me wonder.
To say "just accept the results" um.........no! Someone wasn't doing a job Lee paid them to do. Period. A variation of up to one grade would be acceptable. That's what Lee was looking for and is a reasonable expectation.
To say that "cracking it vs reconsideration was an error", also no! Reconsideration is like asking your wife if she's still happy with her decision to marry you. There's zero incentive to change a grade under that scenario unless the error in grading the first time is so far beyond the pail, they must.
To say "just keep it as is" assumes Lee's heirs will also understand it's value is far in excess of what a price guide suggests. Why would he want to dump it on them?
Sending it to CAC might result in a gold bean which implies that it is at least one full grade under the grade on the label. The problem there is that gold isn't guaranteed and even then, it could be viewed as a low end MS 66 coin.
In my opinion the proper thing would be for someone within PCGS to reach out to Lee (privately if necessary) to get the coin in house to see what the hell is going on. They may agree that it was a mechanical error, someone dropped the ball or they could justify to Lee what prompted the huge downgrade. It's in their interest to also get the coin out of the field. Imagine f the coin were being shopped around at a major show as is.
I'd be embarassed.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
@TommyType said:
After looking at the larger image, to me the "most distracting" part of the coin is under the eagle's wings on the reverse. Hard to tell if those are die lines, or what. Some of the same are apparent in front of Liberty's mouth. Might those be holding the coin from the grade you were expecting?
As for my GTG.....I'll go with 66 if those are simply raised die lines on a freshly polished die. But they may prevent it from going much higher(?) (I honestly don't know how they deal with "distractions inherent in the die")
Here it is with much magnification...
I'd like to see a large, clear, tilted photo of the area in the field in front of the nose. Looks like moderate hairlines rather than die polish, and to the graders, worth a couple points netted off of the otherwise easy MS66..
When I first saw this photo, I was not thinking die polish. I was thinking a planchet with heavy hairlines before striking instead. I've seen the same pattern on a 1951 dcam dime.
I don't think it is hairlines because they "dead end" into the devices.
Interesting piece.
Still hoping for a large clear image of the field in front of the face. The graders took a glass to it...
These come nice, but I will bet PCGS gave you a 64. There is a hit above the eye and hidden hits on the cap toward the bottom. Also a slight rim issue at 11:30
I peruse the new images posted on the Coinfacts page, especially Morgan dollars.
I kinda of do my own guess the grade when looking at the Trueview images.
As I mentioned earlier on this thread I saw this coin on the Coinfacts page and was surprised by the 64 grade based on the image. But I also noticed this quite a bit with MS Morgans. Take a coin with limited marks and what appears to be excellent surfaces. What I have see is that there is very fine line for some coins with little or no marks getting a 64, 65, 66 or 67 grade.
That difference is usually only see in hand when looking at the cartwheel effect the coin gives off.
Anyways, Here is a link to the recent Coinfacts images with a series of eight Morgans graded 65 to 66+
More coins get posted each day so clicking on this link later, you may have to skip a few pages forward.
The coins I'm referring to have a posted date of 12/11/2017
See how you do picking out the exact grade based on a photo of this group of 8 coins.
Further down there is another series of Morgans that have some color that have grades from 62 to 66.
I would be surprised if you can guess the grade on more than 70% based on the images.
...shoot an email over to Phil and have him Dropbox you every photo taken of your coin...I have done this with a few of my coins and they take a good amount of shots over there...I wanna say like 4 to 6 of both the Obverse and Reverse...just a thought for the OP
@thebigeng said: "These come nice, but I will bet PCGS gave you a 64. There is a hit above the eye and hidden hits on the cap toward the bottom. Also a slight rim issue at 11:30."
This statement is an excellent case of what advanced grading instructors call "Micro Grading." I should know it when I see it because no one has been able to break this habit of mine!
Looking at the magnified images, the coin has a lot of mint die polish, I see no hairlines from cleaning, so...
First choice: The coin has a "mechanical error" that was not caught by QC.
Second choice: The coin has a "market acceptable" surface alteration to the "frost."
I recommend the submitter get a second opinion from another major TPGS.
Sending it to CAC might result in a gold bean which implies that it is at least one full grade under the grade on the label. The problem there is that gold isn't guaranteed and even then, it could be viewed as a low end MS 66 coin.
I remove the other parts, not because they were right or wrong, but I wanted to focus on the above part.
I, personally, think that Lee SHOULD send it to CAC. Here's why:
PCGS process, I believe and others believe as shown by comments, is that, for non-moderns (ie....SAEs, etc), at least 3 people should have looked at, and agreed with, the grade.
Obviously, people on this thread disagree with the assigned grade, including the couple of people that have seen it in person.
Sending it to CAC is less about the gold, to me, than it would be to get that impartial 3rd person, in-hand, expert grader evaluation.
IF it came back with anything less than a gold bean, then someone else, who is an expert grader, has seen something. Thing with JA, that PCGS doesn't do, is that he WILL give you his thoughts if you ask AHEAD of time. I'm a numismatic nobody and even I have talked to him more than a few times about my submissions.
Even if it comes back gold, I would have asked for comments. Would be interesting if he thought it was WAAAYYYYYY undergraded or if he thought it was just a point or so undergraded (at MS64).
Lee - if you have the ability, send it to CAC (just my opinion)
@FadeToBlack the process in the grading room is normally 2 graders. If they don't agree on a grade, it is sent to the finalizer to make the final determination.
"Generally, our process requires that two of our experts evaluate each coin independently, and no authenticity opinion is issued and no quality grade is assigned unless their opinions with respect to the authenticity and quality grade, independently assigned by each of them, are the same. In some cases, depending on the type of coin being authenticated and graded or on the results of the initial review process, we involve a third expert to make the final determinations of authenticity and grade. (pg. 8 on 2017 10-K) http://investors.collectors.com/sec.cfm?view=all
Just saw this thread and it's not all that surprising and yet another clear example of gross inconsistecies in grading at pcgs as well as changing standards from year to year. I feel for the OP.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Luxor said:
Just saw this thread and it's not all that surprising and yet another clear example of gross inconsistecies in grading at pcgs as well as changing standards from year to year. I feel for the OP.
pretty confrontational if you ask me for someone who just joined 1 month ago. You from ATS or what?
Today is knock PCGS day?
It's obvious a fluke, I don't beleieve even ONE poster said 64. The average was 66, it must be a mistake, a rare mistake at that imho.
I myself would have gtg at 66. Not a + and would be beaned at that I bet.
@Luxor said:
Just saw this thread and it's not all that surprising and yet another clear example of gross inconsistecies in grading at pcgs as well as changing standards from year to year. I feel for the OP.
pretty confrontational if you ask me for someone who just joined 1 month ago. You from ATS or what?
Today is knock PCGS day?
It's obvious a fluke, I don't beleieve even ONE poster said 64. The average was 66, it must be a mistake, a rare mistake at that imho.
I myself would have gtg at 66. Not a + and would be beaned at that I bet.
Confrontational or simply stating what is self evident? A fluke....is that the new terminology when coins downgrafe 2 full points?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@LeeBone said:
You want to see THE NICEST 64 IN THE WORLD...here she is!!
Is there such a thing as a Gold CAC+?
Really, some grader, or 3, were having BAD days when this passed through their hands. Simply ridiculous. Nothing more.
crack it out,,,,, seen worse dogs get 2 grades higher
I submitted this coin raw in June of 2017 and received it back in August 2017
Submission 5508262, Order 21256840, 2 Items
RECEIVED
6/29/2017
SHIPPED
8/8/2017
DELIVERED
1 1 84786429 7092 1879-S $1 MS66 USA
2 1 84786430 7266 1900-O $1 MS66 USA
Was hoping for a 66+ or shot 67
Decided to crack it and send it back raw again...
(Yes, I understand all bets are off once it's been cracked, duh)
Seeing how I still believed it could/should have a good chance at an upgrade off it went. I decided to send it PCGS Gold Shield Secure with a nice TruView. Was hoping it would make a difference. It sure did.
Well, I was taken aback when I received my grade of MS64...
Submission 5595240, Order 21331440, 1 Item
Your submission has been delivered.
RECEIVED
11/16/2017
SHIPPED
12/6/2017
1 1 34430252 7092 1879-S $1 MS64 USA
Seriously?! WTF?
That's when I got disgusted and started this thread.
I just was trying show how inconsistent and random grading can be. It could all depend on what kind of day said graders are having for so many reasons. Monday morning beginning of work week, end of day on a Friday? Home life not going so well?
Way more too I'm sure.
Lots of comments on this thread and most agree 64 was something out of sorts. Sure, maybe a little tightening up on grading had something to do with it, which I really never understood anyway, standards should remain the same.
On another note, the deal about grading different dates/MM differently because of rarity and/or color is also one I don't agree with. I've seen so many coins resting in overgraded holders due to their eye appeal due to color than their true grade.
Anyway, after a few months I decided to break out the hammer and take a good whack at that Gold Shield Slab.
Now free to breathe in the good clean air again, off she went back to make right, this time going Economy.....
Here is what happened.
Submission 5696860, Order 21392597, 1 Item
Your submission has been delivered.
RECEIVED
3/29/2018
SHIPPED
5/1/2018
1 1 35041440 7092 1879-S $1 MS66 USA
Yeah, back into a 66 holder.
Then it was off to CAC. Keep in mind 79-S's are a dime a dozen and must really stand out to JA for the Bean.
Boom.
Back at a minimum IMHO of where it should be, but with an honest and legitimate argument to be in a 67 Tomb.
I have had at least two well know Morgan Dealers agree with me too.
Remember, I do understand it's no big deal moneywise. I have already pointed that out before. It's simply making a point of how I feel TPG has seemingly took a turn for the worse over the years. I know, cry me a river, right? Believe me, I'm not looking for sympathy, just showing and stating the facts as I see it.
Sorry for my rant but I figured I'd follow up on this explaining everything in as much detail as possible.
I agree with @Catbert. I'll allow a point of variation without too much fuss, but 2 points is pretty tough to explain, especially for a coin that looks like this. For the sake of argument, it would probably eventually come back as a 66+ or 67 if submitted a dozen times.
Everyone who has submitted enough coins has had similar surprises, sometimes in both directions. Nobody complains about the ones that come back higher than expected.
I would be curious to see what would happen at CAC in the 64 holder. Certainly it would have had to of gold stickered. interesting experiment anyway. Thanks for sharing and nice coin!
Glad to hear for the OP. the one part of this whole affair that's unfortunate is that the grading service ends up with three grading fees for correcting their big mistake
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Comments
66+
I'm curious, are notes from the grading room regarding a cert number kept? If so, can't the OP just call customer service and ask for the notes to be reviewed on that cert number to verify if that is indeed what was given, or to show that a mechanical error indeed occur? I know I would be calling customer service first thing in the morning to check. If it's a mechanical error, and that has been my suspicion since the reveal, then CS can get the ball rolling to getting it fixed. Plus a phone call is far less expensive then sending back in.
I would have guessed 66+ based on the pictures.
Also, there is a coin connection in this video that @PocketArt posted. At 1:15 to 1:22 a Liberty $20 gold is seen being worn by Robert Plant.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Some of the comments in this thread really make me wonder.
To say "just accept the results" um.........no! Someone wasn't doing a job Lee paid them to do. Period. A variation of up to one grade would be acceptable. That's what Lee was looking for and is a reasonable expectation.
To say that "cracking it vs reconsideration was an error", also no! Reconsideration is like asking your wife if she's still happy with her decision to marry you. There's zero incentive to change a grade under that scenario unless the error in grading the first time is so far beyond the pail, they must.
To say "just keep it as is" assumes Lee's heirs will also understand it's value is far in excess of what a price guide suggests. Why would he want to dump it on them?
Sending it to CAC might result in a gold bean which implies that it is at least one full grade under the grade on the label. The problem there is that gold isn't guaranteed and even then, it could be viewed as a low end MS 66 coin.
In my opinion the proper thing would be for someone within PCGS to reach out to Lee (privately if necessary) to get the coin in house to see what the hell is going on. They may agree that it was a mechanical error, someone dropped the ball or they could justify to Lee what prompted the huge downgrade. It's in their interest to also get the coin out of the field. Imagine f the coin were being shopped around at a major show as is.
I'd be embarassed.
Still hoping for a large clear image of the field in front of the face. The graders took a glass to it...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
65
Here the max size Trueview. you should be able to zoom in on any area.
Or save it and use a photo viewer to zoom in.
Thank you for adding this.
These come nice, but I will bet PCGS gave you a 64. There is a hit above the eye and hidden hits on the cap toward the bottom. Also a slight rim issue at 11:30
Here is a zoomed in photo, that I darkened a little bit to try and show the fields better.
It still looks like normal die polish lines to me IMO.
Thanks! Great looking dollar, beautiful cheek.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I think it’s hilarious that people keep guessing a grade long after it’s been posted and discussed.
Where? What was it?
Found it on page two!
I peruse the new images posted on the Coinfacts page, especially Morgan dollars.
I kinda of do my own guess the grade when looking at the Trueview images.
As I mentioned earlier on this thread I saw this coin on the Coinfacts page and was surprised by the 64 grade based on the image. But I also noticed this quite a bit with MS Morgans. Take a coin with limited marks and what appears to be excellent surfaces. What I have see is that there is very fine line for some coins with little or no marks getting a 64, 65, 66 or 67 grade.
That difference is usually only see in hand when looking at the cartwheel effect the coin gives off.
Anyways, Here is a link to the recent Coinfacts images with a series of eight Morgans graded 65 to 66+
pcgscoinfacts.com/MostRecent.aspx?mr=1&level=2
More coins get posted each day so clicking on this link later, you may have to skip a few pages forward.
The coins I'm referring to have a posted date of 12/11/2017
See how you do picking out the exact grade based on a photo of this group of 8 coins.
Further down there is another series of Morgans that have some color that have grades from 62 to 66.
I would be surprised if you can guess the grade on more than 70% based on the images.
I've seen PCGS MS 68's with more hits. The slight scuff in front of Ms Liberty's eyes and the tiny eye brow damage should not result in MS 64.
...shoot an email over to Phil and have him Dropbox you every photo taken of your coin...I have done this with a few of my coins and they take a good amount of shots over there...I wanna say like 4 to 6 of both the Obverse and Reverse...just a thought for the OP
I was wondering if anyone would see that- also, Jimmy Page's silver dollar belt buckle at 2:58-3:04...unfortunately safe bet not LeeBone's.
Solid 66.
@thebigeng said: "These come nice, but I will bet PCGS gave you a 64. There is a hit above the eye and hidden hits on the cap toward the bottom. Also a slight rim issue at 11:30."
This statement is an excellent case of what advanced grading instructors call "Micro Grading." I should know it when I see it because no one has been able to break this habit of mine!
Looking at the magnified images, the coin has a lot of mint die polish, I see no hairlines from cleaning, so...
First choice: The coin has a "mechanical error" that was not caught by QC.
Second choice: The coin has a "market acceptable" surface alteration to the "frost."
I recommend the submitter get a second opinion from another major TPGS.
I remove the other parts, not because they were right or wrong, but I wanted to focus on the above part.
I, personally, think that Lee SHOULD send it to CAC. Here's why:
PCGS process, I believe and others believe as shown by comments, is that, for non-moderns (ie....SAEs, etc), at least 3 people should have looked at, and agreed with, the grade.
Obviously, people on this thread disagree with the assigned grade, including the couple of people that have seen it in person.
Sending it to CAC is less about the gold, to me, than it would be to get that impartial 3rd person, in-hand, expert grader evaluation.
IF it came back with anything less than a gold bean, then someone else, who is an expert grader, has seen something. Thing with JA, that PCGS doesn't do, is that he WILL give you his thoughts if you ask AHEAD of time. I'm a numismatic nobody and even I have talked to him more than a few times about my submissions.
Even if it comes back gold, I would have asked for comments. Would be interesting if he thought it was WAAAYYYYYY undergraded or if he thought it was just a point or so undergraded (at MS64).
Lee - if you have the ability, send it to CAC (just my opinion)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
this tread reminds me of an old saying: "beating a dead horse to death"
@FadeToBlack the process in the grading room is normally 2 graders. If they don't agree on a grade, it is sent to the finalizer to make the final determination.
"Generally, our process requires that two of our experts evaluate each coin independently, and no authenticity opinion is issued and no quality grade is assigned unless their opinions with respect to the authenticity and quality grade, independently assigned by each of them, are the same. In some cases, depending on the type of coin being authenticated and graded or on the results of the initial review process, we involve a third expert to make the final determinations of authenticity and grade. (pg. 8 on 2017 10-K) http://investors.collectors.com/sec.cfm?view=all
Dick Osborn told me a long time ago, if you want it in a holder, buy it in a holder. Anything else is investing
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Just saw this thread and it's not all that surprising and yet another clear example of gross inconsistecies in grading at pcgs as well as changing standards from year to year. I feel for the OP.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I missed this thread the first time around. I wonder what ever happened? Did he send to CAC? Back to PCGS?
My YouTube Channel
I don't see MS67... Solid 65 and would be happy with a 66.
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It will likely see a CAC soon, albeit not in its present holder!
pretty confrontational if you ask me for someone who just joined 1 month ago. You from ATS or what?
Today is knock PCGS day?
It's obvious a fluke, I don't beleieve even ONE poster said 64. The average was 66, it must be a mistake, a rare mistake at that imho.
I myself would have gtg at 66. Not a + and would be beaned at that I bet.
Minor action above AT ............in STATES? They don't look that close
66
Confrontational or simply stating what is self evident? A fluke....is that the new terminology when coins downgrafe 2 full points?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
66
passin by, move along
what was the grade
crack it out,,,,, seen worse dogs get 2 grades higher
Gonna keep it secret?
Collector, occasional seller
Ok, let's start from the beginning...
I submitted this coin raw in June of 2017 and received it back in August 2017
Submission 5508262, Order 21256840, 2 Items
RECEIVED
6/29/2017
SHIPPED
8/8/2017
DELIVERED
1 1 84786429 7092 1879-S $1 MS66 USA
2 1 84786430 7266 1900-O $1 MS66 USA
Was hoping for a 66+ or shot 67
Decided to crack it and send it back raw again...
(Yes, I understand all bets are off once it's been cracked, duh)
Seeing how I still believed it could/should have a good chance at an upgrade off it went. I decided to send it PCGS Gold Shield Secure with a nice TruView. Was hoping it would make a difference. It sure did.
Well, I was taken aback when I received my grade of MS64...
Submission 5595240, Order 21331440, 1 Item
Your submission has been delivered.
RECEIVED
11/16/2017
SHIPPED
12/6/2017
1 1 34430252 7092 1879-S $1 MS64 USA
Seriously?! WTF?
That's when I got disgusted and started this thread.
I just was trying show how inconsistent and random grading can be. It could all depend on what kind of day said graders are having for so many reasons. Monday morning beginning of work week, end of day on a Friday? Home life not going so well?
Way more too I'm sure.
Lots of comments on this thread and most agree 64 was something out of sorts. Sure, maybe a little tightening up on grading had something to do with it, which I really never understood anyway, standards should remain the same.
On another note, the deal about grading different dates/MM differently because of rarity and/or color is also one I don't agree with. I've seen so many coins resting in overgraded holders due to their eye appeal due to color than their true grade.
Anyway, after a few months I decided to break out the hammer and take a good whack at that Gold Shield Slab.
Now free to breathe in the good clean air again, off she went back to make right, this time going Economy.....
Here is what happened.
Submission 5696860, Order 21392597, 1 Item
Your submission has been delivered.
RECEIVED
3/29/2018
SHIPPED
5/1/2018
1 1 35041440 7092 1879-S $1 MS66 USA
Yeah, back into a 66 holder.
Then it was off to CAC. Keep in mind 79-S's are a dime a dozen and must really stand out to JA for the Bean.
Boom.
Back at a minimum IMHO of where it should be, but with an honest and legitimate argument to be in a 67 Tomb.
I have had at least two well know Morgan Dealers agree with me too.
Remember, I do understand it's no big deal moneywise. I have already pointed that out before. It's simply making a point of how I feel TPG has seemingly took a turn for the worse over the years. I know, cry me a river, right? Believe me, I'm not looking for sympathy, just showing and stating the facts as I see it.
Sorry for my rant but I figured I'd follow up on this explaining everything in as much detail as possible.
Wishing all the best.
Peace...
She sure is nice to look at and probably a delight to hold!
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Sure is a pretty example! And looks good in the proper holder!
My YouTube Channel
Noice!
Hit it on the nail, both the grade and the bean
Well at least back to where you started with a few grading fees along the way. Congrats
This thread would be great for newbies regarding the vagaries of grading.
Thanks for sharing the story.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I agree with @Catbert. I'll allow a point of variation without too much fuss, but 2 points is pretty tough to explain, especially for a coin that looks like this. For the sake of argument, it would probably eventually come back as a 66+ or 67 if submitted a dozen times.
Everyone who has submitted enough coins has had similar surprises, sometimes in both directions. Nobody complains about the ones that come back higher than expected.
I would be curious to see what would happen at CAC in the 64 holder. Certainly it would have had to of gold stickered. interesting experiment anyway. Thanks for sharing and nice coin!
Glad to hear for the OP. the one part of this whole affair that's unfortunate is that the grading service ends up with three grading fees for correcting their big mistake
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.