Why No Proof-like Peace Dollars?

RichR · October 3, 2015 1:02PM

I'm an avid collector of Morgan PL and DPL...and have managed to collected roughly 75% of the entire Morgan series in proof-like.

But my question is this...was the production or hardware used to produce Peace dollars somehow different that a similar percentage of PL Peace dollars was not also produced?

Broadstruck · October 3, 2015 1:10PM

ANACS has graded a few Peace $1's as PL.

RichR · October 3, 2015 1:16PM

I should ask...why are there comparatively some many fewer PL and DPL Peace dollars vs. Morgans...which themselves are not very common?

Were Peace dies finished or produced in such a way as to not produce a mirror finish? Or was the pressure used not adequate to produce a proof-like surface?

savoyspecial · October 3, 2015 1:25PM

Roger Burdette addressed some of this in his book, A Guide Book of Peace Dollars (Whitman Pub.)

basically the basining and polishing process was different and more hasty with Peace Dollars

ricko · October 4, 2015 2:33AM

Good question... and one which I have asked myself often..... very hard to find PL Peace Dollars.... Roger's explanation certainly makes sense. Cheers, RickO

leothelyon · October 5, 2015 7:05AM

These were likely collected early on. Similar to Jefferson nickels.......where are they? I have a few but I haven't come across any for quite some time. But most of mine came from other collections. Prooflike is a step up from lustrous, an extremely rare quality. My examples have and will command a very high price. For example, a prooflike 1950-D Jefferson nickel......I know who has one but at what price? And will he part with it?

Leo

cameonut2011 · October 5, 2015 10:23AM

<< ANACS has graded a few Peace $1's as PL. >>

NGC has also certified a couple - both 1934-D coins if I recall correctly. If you are asking why there are no PCGS PL Peace Dollars, it is also important to note that PCGS will not designate non-Morgan Dollar coins as PL or DMPL except for a few select moderns.

BillJones · October 5, 2015 10:10PM

I would add that there was a conscious effort to avoid the classic Proof and Proof-like type luster on the part of artists during the period from Augustus St. Gaudens to Anthony de Francisci. They viewed the mirrored surfaces as "garish." They also thought that the bright surfaces detracted from the artist's designs. For that reason the Matte surface was placed on the Proofs and the Mint State coins had a similar look. I noted this when I started filling a want list for a collector who was building a set of Walking Liberty Half Dollars.

oih82w8 · October 5, 2015 10:19PM

It must have something to do with the finish. When I had my Peace Dollar imaged by one of our forum members, he told me that Peace Dollars gives him fits and they usually don't turn out the way he wants (looks good to me).

I found an article by Leroy Van Allen; "Do Proof Like Peace Dollars Exist"

"...the key fact revealed is that from 1916 onwards, the silver coins were struck from working dies that were not basined. Thus, the working dies did not have their fields polished to produce mirror surfaces that resulted in the proof-like fields of the of the pre-1916 silver coins.

The sculptured models of the designs from 1916 onwards were prepared with no intention of basining the working dies. In addition, the designs were not retouched with a graver in any way during the intermediate steps from sculptured plaster model through working hubs and working dies in order to preserve the exact quality and texture of the original sculptor’s work. These changes in die preparation procedures resulted in a number of appearance differences between the Morgan and Peace dollars."

Do Proof Like Peace Dollars Exist

jerseycat101 · October 6, 2015 1:27AM

I own this coin which is not attributed, but exhibits prooflike features:

Treashunt · October 6, 2015 5:54AM

Jersey:

I wish the PL could show in the pictures

Stuart · October 6, 2015 6:08AM

I own a several 1921 Peace Dollars that exhibit what I'd call Glossy Mint Luster, which I define as somewhere in between Satiny and Semi-Prooflike.

These almost all exhibit die polish striations indicating that the dies were polished, or repolished to help conceal the appearance of otherwise obvious die clash marks.

You may wish to refer to my 1921 Peace Dollar: Mint State vs. Satin Proof - Strike Detail Photo Comparison Thread for reference.

1921 Peace Dollar - NGC MS-64 - Strong Strike & Glossy Luster

OPA · October 6, 2015 6:49AM

<< Jersey:

I wish the PL could show in the pictures >>

Not PL in my opinion.

Hydrant · October 6, 2015 2:59PM

Problems with the dies? The engraving was too deep, coin blanks to thin? Somebody should know. I don't. Just guessing. Sound good to anyone? Help. Please.

cameonut2011 · October 6, 2015 4:07PM

<< 

<< Jersey:

I wish the PL could show in the pictures >>

Not PL in my opinion. >>

Not even close to PL in my opinion.

Overdate · October 6, 2015 4:42PM

No mirror proof Peace dollars were struck either.

A situation that I am certain will be rectified in 2021.

lasvegasteddy · October 6, 2015 9:54PM

the dies & planchets weren't polished to mirror finish or of a brilliant proof status
the only proofs were matte and satin finsih

closest one will come is a satin or matte "proof like" in the first 2 years
like stewart was addressing

one of my 1921's (only coin i accept having a scratch on)
images proof like at one angle of lighting
coins will have several different looks reliant upon lighting angle

the seller's image caught my eye and with my own point & shoot kodak easyshare
i too can replicate such look at one angle

to me this has a satin proof like obverse with slight cameo attributes
the original skin is still intact
i suspect this example could be dipped and the proof like quality would only be improved with the slight honey toning gone
but i love it just how it is...scratch and all

sellers image

my image with a point & shoot

Broadstruck · October 6, 2015 11:38PM

<< 

<< ANACS has graded a few Peace $1's as PL. >>

NGC has also certified a couple - both 1934-D coins if I recall correctly. If you are asking why there are no PCGS PL Peace Dollars, it is also important to note that PCGS will not designate non-Morgan Dollar coins as PL or DMPL except for a few select moderns. >>

1934-D is the same at ANACS....

jerseycat101 · October 7, 2015 1:23AM

<< 

<< 

<< Jersey:

I wish the PL could show in the pictures >>

Not PL in my opinion. >>

Not even close to PL in my opinion. >>

It's a good thing I never claimed the coin was "PL"

I merely said it had proof-like features, e.g., the obvious cameo contrast on the reverse.

sjl442 · December 8, 2017 11:48AM

I just saw the most amazing Proof Like Peace dollar and it was graded NGC MS65. After looking for 30 years and never really coming close, this coin was beyond any expectations I ever had. It was 100% proof like, actually borderline deep mirror. The coin had life and was a true gem on top of that. I looked when I got home and it is the only one ever to be graded in the entire series. It blows away the 1934d MS62 piece that I have seen, not even in the same league. I am trying to buy it but for right now it is not for sale because they are trying to get PCGS to grade it as such. It should be in a PCGS, no question.

Kkathyl · December 8, 2017 12:02PM

I think mine is pretty darn good looks to be 62-63 range pictures are hard to take on the run

Overdate · December 8, 2017 12:15PM

@oih82w8 said:

I found an article by Leroy Van Allen; "Do Proof Like Peace Dollars Exist"

"...the key fact revealed is that from 1916 onwards, the silver coins were struck from working dies that were not basined. Thus, the working dies did not have their fields polished to produce mirror surfaces that resulted in the proof-like fields of the of the pre-1916 silver coins.

One possible exception: 1921 Morgan dollars are known with proof-like fields.

RogerB · December 8, 2017 1:00PM

sjl442. Do you have photos or at least the NGC tracking number?

Thanks

Crypto · December 8, 2017 3:40PM

@RogerB said:
sjl442. Do you have photos or at least the NGC tracking number?

Thanks

There was a 64pl (34d) at the last Baltimore show. It was flashy but not really PL. I have also seen a couple of the 34d coins in anacs and both were junky and more glossy (cleaning?) than PL

The most PL coin I have ever seen was a 26s with a troumendous amount of die polish and it absolutely have light mirrors. That said if it was a Morgan, but it would never in a hundred year get into a PL holder.

Jimnight · December 8, 2017 6:34PM

Can't say I have seen a PL peace dollar.

mannie gray · December 8, 2017 10:04PM

I recall seeing a 23-S years ago that was "semi-PL-ish" if you had a few drinks and were in a good mood.

Frankcoins · December 9, 2017 3:11AM

Ending with Indian cent, Liberty nickel, Barber dime,quarter,half, Morgan dollar, and Liberty head gold -- The dies were prepared with punches for the letters and digits , and the obverse head and reverse eagle or wreath, all done in reverse, the actual size of the finished coin. Later, ring punches for the lettering such as UNITED STATES OF AMERICA were made which standardized the spacing and tilt of the lettering, eliminating many of the varieties of early (pre 1815 or so) coins. Finally, dies were made from hubs, which is simply a punch with the entire design on it.

But in all these methods of die preparation, finishing or polishing the flat high point of the die, (perhaps putting too much work into it for business strikes) -- could produce prooflike coins . Too much polishing would also eliminate details, such as on the three-legged Buffalo Nickel.

Starting with the Lincoln cent, Buffalo nickel, Mercury dime, Standing Liberty quarter, Walking Liberty half and Peace Dollar, a completely different method of die preparation was used. Instead of an ENGRAVER preparing the dies, a SCULPTOR prepared large models in plaster or sometimes clay, which a hard metal shell was made by the electrotype process, which in turn was used in a Janvier reducing lathe to cut a hub the size of the finished coin. But with many such designs having purposely rough fields, particularly the type I Buffalo Nickel, additional die finishing and polishing would ruin the intended look, and even the brilliant proofs that collectors liked could not be made from these dies -- various Mint experiments to make satin-matte-sandblast Proofs all resulted in coins that didn't look much different than sharp business strikes.

So Peace dollar sorta Prooflike coins exist only when the Mint slightly polished used dies, which roughen with use, to extend their life to or to remove minor damage from clashes.

When Proof coinage resumed in 1936, the Mint had modified the designs to have flat or concave fields, artist intention
became secondary after the many problems resulting from sculptors not knowing the requirements of circulating coinage. (dates wore off the nickel and quarter, skirt lines on Walkers almost never full, fully struck bands on the dimes were rare due to high points opposite each other, the type 1 buffalo nickel "mound" would not pass through certain vending machine slots, the 1921 Peace dollar would not strike up properly ) So with nice Proofs, nice Prooflikes again became possible - a 1941-S dime is known as an impressive Prooflike. But the Peace dollar ended in 1935 , before the Mint learned to make nice brilliant Proofs again.

ricko · December 9, 2017 7:34AM

It would be impressive to see a 1921 Peace Dollar, high relief, proof-like with DCAM frost and mirrors.... Wow... that would command a price.... too bad they were never made...Cheers, RickO

RogerB · December 9, 2017 9:28AM

in 1936 the Sec of Treasury specifically ordered that if proof set manufacture were resumed, there would be no proof dollars, even if their production were authorized.

PocketArt · December 9, 2017 5:25PM

The elusive Peace Dollar PL...what a coin. I wonder what subtleties in the die prevented a robust polish as the Morgan's received...perhaps finite depth of devices...rays? IDK- change of guard, and methods? Directives from head of mint? Engraver?

The '23-S Peace that I have has hints of polish. Notably around the "ber" in Liberty, PL, and around the right field of coin past the 3 o'clock position a bit. You can see extensive die scratches on right field, and I wonder if it's an over-zealous employee who's trying to buff out die scratches? Polish maybe patchy with Peace dollars, sort of; but less so than with beautiful toning?

My white whale...I will find you...!!!

Ooops, edited to add...you_will_be_mine!!!!

RogerB · December 9, 2017 7:18PM

RE: "The elusive Peace Dollar PL...what a coin. I wonder what subtleties in the die prevented a robust polish as the Morgan's received...perhaps finite depth of devices...rays? IDK- change of guard, and methods? Directives from head of mint? Engraver?"

Not really subtle. The absence of a defined die radius of curvature prevented use of a fixed polishing lap for die repair. Everything had to be done with emery sticks and similar tools. This affects all the 1916-1921 designs and most of the regular commemoratives. For a visual reference, look at the 1916 SLQ and Mercury dime patterns from May-June of that year. Notice the uneven polish and defective relief caused by Barber's staff attempting to bring the fields to a mirror-like polish using a standard polishing lap.

Overdate · December 9, 2017 7:33PM

@ricko said:
It would be impressive to see a 1921 Peace Dollar, high relief, proof-like with DCAM frost and mirrors.... Wow... that would command a price.... too bad they were never made...Cheers, RickO

Maybe we'll get one in 2021.

Rosco · December 9, 2017 10:04PM

I would like to throw this 1922 in the ring for opinions.

I have never photographed it before, the coin is full
of cartwheel luster, and seems satin with a light mirror effect.

First coin I was ever given as a young boy, been in a Hallmark
coin card over 50 years, in a desk drawer.

Anything special here ?

cameonut2011 · December 9, 2017 10:14PM

Non-Morgan PL coinage from the first half of the 20th century is relatively scarce to rare for all issues. Peace Dollars, Walking Liberty Halves, and Buffalo Nickels are all incredibly rare yet examples of each have been certified by NGC.

Mr Lindy · December 10, 2017 9:32AM

Daniel Carr's sold out proof like 1964 D Peace Dollar fantasy might be a nice substitute for the elusive Cameo Proof Like Peace ?

They are actually rare due to low mintage.
I've got a couple & they look really impressive in person.

Linked item is not my offer, I don't know seller,
but start price is in the ball park these days:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-D-Daniel-Carr-Peace-Dollar-Proof-Finish-Rare/332475900376?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

RogerB · December 10, 2017 3:02PM

The pictured 1922 is certainly not PL in any respect. Possibly some interesting die cracks, though.

Peace_dollar88 · March 31, 2018 11:57AM

Not my coin. Came across this on instagram this morning and immediately thought of this thread.

Insider2 · March 31, 2018 12:33PM

The ONLY Peace dollars I have ever seen that were actually PL with no wiggle room were on two struck counterfeits. I don't call the semi-mirror surface on a SMS silver coin PL.

In the good old days, we could grade coins Semi-PL. I was sorry to see that designation dropped. I guess it was because there is often still some "slop" between PL and DMPL and having Semi-anything around would make it worse.

I think the OP's question has been answered. If not, I apologize for adding a rant about PL Morgans to the thread. Think of this as a theoretical exercise as nothing is going to change.

Now to express a really BIG PROBLEM I have with the "Ex-Perts." It has to do with PL's. IMHO, teaching a beginner to grade is not that complicated as we eliminate all the crap like the strength of strike. Before you disagree, (I WILL NOT REPLY TO DEFEND THIS OPINION as I've been teaching for over 40 yrs. and I don't care what you think you know about teaching coin grading - I've seen the results.) this is just the beginning of the instruction using "technical grading." All the additional factors of "commercial" grading such as eye-appeal, strike, market-acceptability, and the STUPID & CONFUSING "value" thing are covered later in the class after a strong "technical" foundation has been laid and the students know exactly what they are seeing on coins.

That said, one of the biggest complaints I have with some Morgan Dollar "Ex-Perts" is this:

I can take two Morgan dollars of different dates with EXACTLY the same depth of mirror and they will be graded differently. The cheap date is a DMPL while that "rare" condition for the other date is ONLY assigned a PL designation. Try to teach a stupid, illogical thing like that to a student! I've been told it has to do with VALUE which in a perfect world should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONDITION OF PRESERVATION of a coin from when it was struck!!!!

What say you?

ACop · March 31, 2018 12:54PM

I have the Anacs unit linked above. I think if dipped of the toning this would cross at NGC. Crypto offered me like 10k for it, hes mad I said no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJA_RlTfks

ACop · March 31, 2018 12:58PM

That 26S looks great did they have the reverse pic? Someone posted a 21 once that looked awesome. Wasnt graded PL but was graded and had some cameo.

RogerB · March 31, 2018 12:59PM

Have not seen any Peace dollar that is proof-like....In any holder, slab or hologram.

ACop · March 31, 2018 1:01PM

@RogerB said:
Have not seen any Peace dollar that is proof-like....In any holder, slab or hologram.

Beethoven never heard a piano.

RogerB · March 31, 2018 1:02PM

@ACop said:

@RogerB said:
Have not seen any Peace dollar that is proof-like....In any holder, slab or hologram.

Beethoven never heard a piano.

Beethoven was a pianist. He gradually lost his hearing.

1940coupe · March 31, 2018 1:07PM

@LindyS said:
Daniel Carr's sold out proof like 1964 D Peace Dollar fantasy might be a nice substitute for the elusive Cameo Proof Like Peace ?

They are actually rare due to low mintage.
I've got a couple & they look really impressive in person.

Linked item is not my offer, I don't know seller,
but start price is in the ball park these days:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-D-Daniel-Carr-Peace-Dollar-Proof-Finish-Rare/332475900376?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Yes the DC 1964 is aw sum I have a few !

ACop · March 31, 2018 1:09PM

@RogerB said:

@ACop said:

@RogerB said:
Have not seen any Peace dollar that is proof-like....In any holder, slab or hologram.

Beethoven never heard a piano.

Beethoven was a pianist. He gradually lost his hearing.

Newton never played a piano.

Insider2 · March 31, 2018 1:23PM

@ACop said:
I have the Anacs unit linked above. I think if dipped of the toning this would cross at NGC. Crypto offered me like 10k for it, hes mad I said no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJA_RlTfks

Here is the thing...PL comes in degrees. Last week I saw a 100% original (trust me - I cranked the zoom up to 40X) standing liberty quarter with a semi-PL surface due to a polished die. One of the most amazing quarters I've seen yet did not bother to record the date. That coin was NOT a PL. Nevertheless, compared to the millions of these coins, I think most (including a TPGS) would consider it so.

That's why I don't think the coin you posted is either (from the image). My opinion does not matter Surly a very unusual strike and professionally graded as a PL by folks above my pay grade. The fact that someone offered 10K and you did not accept proves how unusual the surface is to "mirror?"

You are a true collector to be reckoned with. I should have upped the price to 12K and headed for the Porsche dealer. For 12K, I could have bought four ceramic brakes, a Porsche Jacket, and a big gold chain! LOL.

ACop · March 31, 2018 1:36PM

I was just kidding about the 10k offer. Meant to poke fun at that &$^#&$^ crypto. If you are saying PL is relative to the series then I think I agree with you. I dont think anything would be PL if held to morgan standards.

cameonut2011 · April 4, 2018 1:41AM

@Insider2 said:

@ACop said:
I have the Anacs unit linked above. I think if dipped of the toning this would cross at NGC. Crypto offered me like 10k for it, hes mad I said no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJA_RlTfks

Here is the thing...PL comes in degrees. Last week I saw a 100% original (trust me - I cranked the zoom up to 40X) standing liberty quarter with a semi-PL surface due to a polished die. One of the most amazing quarters I've seen yet did not bother to record the date. That coin was NOT a PL. Nevertheless, compared to the millions of these coins, I think most (including a TPGS) would consider it so.

That's why I don't think the coin you posted is either (from the image).

I agree with you. The fields don’t look very mirrored to my eyes and I have seen a couple of NGC star coins that had more reflectivity without the PL designation. NGC basically treats ANACS coins as raw and “crossover” is a misnomer. I would never ever crack the old ANACS slab.

leothelyon · April 4, 2018 9:16AM

1942 to 1945 Jefferson silver war nickels have the same problem, very few proof-like examples. I have one.

Leo

ChrisH821 · April 4, 2018 10:44AM

I think I have a 25-s with semi-reflective fields. I'll have to dig it out and see if I can capture it in a photo or gif.

AmazonX · April 4, 2018 11:01AM

How about some better photos? (Stolen from the Ebay auction- only $9,950!)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-S-1-Proof-Like-Peace-Dollar-NGC-MS64PL-Certified-US-Rare-Coin/312099300270?epid=170406386&hash=item48aa9163ae:g:xMIAAOSw~qxavrXL

Northern Nevada Coins also has a 34-D MS63 PL for sale:

https://brokencc.com/modules.php?mod=Products&op=view_product&prod_id=160475

Why No Proof-like Peace Dollars?

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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