If visitors/customers attend expecting to find a fully-populated show venue, and find only a scattering of dealers, that means the operation is "broken," as in failing to meet customer expectations. Certainly a depopulated show floor is detrimental to building public interest and new collectors?
However, if the real customers are dealers themselves, then there is no need of paying attention to the general public or coin collectors. In that situation, would it not be better to assemble the dealers in a private venue and let them conduct business for a day or two, then depart ad lib? This would be much cheaper, safer and efficient than the present coin show/bourse approach.
Or possibly -- Two "Aristocrat Dayz" for dealers only, followed by two "Plebian Dayz" attended only by dealers who want public interaction and will remain both days. (Fri & Sat ?)
The "Aristocrats" pay only for the limited two days and get no plebian exposure.
I wrote about this in my March 2010 newsletter (see below), and not much has changed since then.
"I was at another dealer's table late on Saturday when a collector asked this question: Why don't more dealers stay on Sunday? Here's the answer:
Some dealers have long flights and it's difficult to find a flight on Sunday. Some dealers have full-time jobs and they need a day off before Monday. Some dealers want to spend time with their families. For me, I would stay through Sunday if it made business sense. But the fact is that for shows longer than 2 days, Sunday is a very low sales day for me. For at least 90% of the shows with a mandatory Sunday, my Sunday sales (sales, not profits) were less than the cost of an extra day's hotel and meals costs."
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@WildIdea said:
The field I'm in has B&Ms and trade shows. It's seem to me it's a matter of pride and prosperity to be the last guys in the room working. Having the hall tearing down around you. It's a "Show", a place to showcase your wares and skill as well as do meet and greats that pay off in the long run. Home can wait. The fellas that treat it like a payday are only seeing the short term and only a fraction of the potential value trade shows offer.
It's confusing to me that it's the opposite at coin shows, although I've accepted it as part of the coin culture. If I were ever to be a booth holder I'd plan on being there the duration. But I'm a one more cast kind of fisherman , one more scoop gold prospector, more metal detector target dig and one more creek bottom rock hunter cause it's been proven to me time and time again that pays off more times than not, and when I go home light, it's not because I didn't put my time in.
But hey, I'm not into telling others what to do! Folks have their reasons and many are good ones. Sometime this creates great opportunities if one is inclined to step up and fill the demand.
Staying around until the bitter end might sound cool to you, but as I dealer, I can tell you that it doesn't work out that way. I have stayed until they turned the lights out, or very dim, at the winter FUN show. There were virtually no customers and chances for valuable contacts are nil. About the only thing you can do is maybe make a purchase or two. All shows hit a wall for dealers at a certain point for certain dealers. Staying beyond that is pointless.
If you have a store, does it make sense to stay open to 11 PM when most everyone else has closed at 9 PM? The answer is no, and the same thing applies here too.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Not to oversimplify it, because I know there are differences, but a B&M store of any kind almost always posts its business hours, and customers expect them to be open during those times. I am sure some blocks of time or even entire days are less profitable than others, but that is part of the cost of doing business.
I do like the idea of a preshow and then a show, so the dealers who don't want to deal with the small time riff raff can skip town early. I am certain that a lot of sales to the pubic are tedious and not very lucrative, so dealers who don't want to mess with that can avoid having to engage in the charade that they are there to do business with the general public.
Staying around until the bitter end might sound cool to you, but as I dealer, I can tell you that it doesn't work out that way. I have stayed until they turned the lights out, or very dim, at the winter FUN show. There were virtually no customers and chances for valuable contacts are nil. About the only thing you can do is maybe make a purchase or two. All shows hit a wall for dealers at a certain point for certain dealers. Staying beyond that is pointless.
If you have a store, does it make sense to stay open to 11 PM when most everyone else has closed at 9 PM? The answer is no, and the same thing applies here too.
I respect this statement and understand the point of view. We always joke that you could set your hours to be open 23 1/2 hours a day and someone would pull on the door that one half hour and grip about it online or someplace. The point I’m making is that when you set your hours, keeping them has always been a basic tenet to success. When things are slow I can see cutting loose a staff member early but we always stay open. But were talking about shows not B&Ms.
I agree that a show may hit a wall at some point and it become pointless for anyone to be there, its just that nobody seems to agree on when that is and it can get weird during a show when every 4th booth is suddenly empty, then every other and so on at times with a day to go. I don’t have the answers, it just seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. No one is at the show so Ill leave, I wonder what came first.
The coin shows should NOT advertise "Sunday" if the vast majority of dealers won't stay until then...or even into most of the show hours on Sunday.
It's that simple, to me.
If the shows have dealers buy tables, then there should be an agreement on the days/times. Lacking that, maybe due to being worried that dealers simply won't sign up, then they should not advertise the show being still going on on a Sunday.
They could say "Show dates: Fri/Sat. Sunday Open Numismatic Bazaar" or something similar.
I hear the arguments about dealers needing to go home/travel/etc and leaving late Saturday or Sunday. I also know that, as a collector, one may not be able to GET to the show until Sunday. To criticize those collectors is just stupid and unnecessary to do. Sometimes, there are work, or family, obligations that get in the way of a collector getting there before then...and sometimes, people are trying to get their YNs to the show and Sunday may be the only day for it.
Yeah, I know, YNs aren't on the radar of necessity for these busy dealers booking out early. I get it.
Also, to me, committing to a show means committing TO THE SHOW. Leaving early is breaking that commitment unless it was agreed to at the original signing (and then, it would be nice if that was noted online and at their booth, in BIG LETTERS...."LEAVING END OF DAY SATURDAY....WILL NOT BE HERE SUNDAY", or something like that).
Truth in advertising.
End of the day, dealers will do what they want as most are independent and sole ownership. As long as they get away with it, they will do it. If the number of shows, and traveling, is too much, then they should pick and choose which shows and what downtime they need. If they have a "real job" to get to, then that is their business as well, but maybe they shouldn't do that show if they can't commit.
I'm sure I'll get some hate mail for my views, but, end of the day, with the internet/ebay/GC/etc, dealers need collectors more than the collectors need the dealers (and, if it is more about dealer to dealer show sales, then they could still have those and just not call it a show)
I have to disagree here. I always seem to sell at the Winter FUN show on Sunday. Baltimore is a different story. By 2:00 on Saturday afternoon I'm a 100 yards from the nearest dealer in front of me from the door. I tried staying Sunday a couple of times in the past couple of years and it just wasn't worth it. Years ago it was! I remember 1 Baltimore show on Sunday I sold an 82 and 83 trade Trade Dollars along with other stuff!
@WildIdea said:
The field I'm in has B&Ms and trade shows. It's seem to me it's a matter of pride and prosperity to be the last guys in the room working. Having the hall tearing down around you. It's a "Show", a place to showcase your wares and skill as well as do meet and greats that pay off in the long run. Home can wait. The fellas that treat it like a payday are only seeing the short term and only a fraction of the potential value trade shows offer.
It's confusing to me that it's the opposite at coin shows, although I've accepted it as part of the coin culture. If I were ever to be a booth holder I'd plan on being there the duration. But I'm a one more cast kind of fisherman , one more scoop gold prospector, more metal detector target dig and one more creek bottom rock hunter cause it's been proven to me time and time again that pays off more times than not, and when I go home light, it's not because I didn't put my time in.
But hey, I'm not into telling others what to do! Folks have their reasons and many are good ones. Sometime this creates great opportunities if one is inclined to step up and fill the demand.
Staying around until the bitter end might sound cool to you, but as I dealer, I can tell you that it doesn't work out that way. I have stayed until they turned the lights out, or very dim, at the winter FUN show. There were virtually no customers and chances for valuable contacts are nil. About the only thing you can do is maybe make a purchase or two. All shows hit a wall for dealers at a certain point for certain dealers. Staying beyond that is pointless.
If you have a store, does it make sense to stay open to 11 PM when most everyone else has closed at 9 PM? The answer is no, and the same thing applies here too.
@ambro51 said:
I sold 10K in nice stuff to a Dealer who "stayed". He'll probably make a nice profit. He stayed....You drive home.
I don't disagree with your perspective, however, I will offer another for your consideration and comment....
Perhaps had you shopped for offers on Friday when all the dealers were there you might have been able to get more than $10k for your coins.
I was just literally typing this
cuts both ways
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Long Beach used to be Thursday through Sunday. Sunday was a snooze, collectors didn't show up, and dealers left. So Sunday was removed. No great loss, it would seem.
But now, SATURDAY afternoon is a snooze. Dealers leave, and collectors, (the ones that are apparently not "stupid"), don't show up. Or, if you prefer, the collectors don't come, and the dealers leave. It's two sides to the same coin.
So, do we now remove Saturday? The one day that the general pubic can actually all get there? Most of the time, I take Friday off from work...but sometimes I can't. When I can't, does the show just not cater to me and those like me at all?
If the bleeping show is too long, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me to remove Thursday, and make SURE you have a presence on Saturday!! Otherwise, coin collecting becomes the hobby of the independently wealthy, and retired, who don't have to work during the week. Maybe it's already coming to that...but why push it that way?
To me, the question is not whether or not it is profitable for dealers to stay until the bitter end (it seems that it almost always is not), the question is whether or not dealers should be expected to stay, to make a commitment that they are expected to honor.
The problem is, the two sides are answering two different questions.
I have learned that the opening day (for the public), at the opening time is the only time to be at the Central States Show, even than some of the dealers just might complain how bad sales are at 10:30 AM when the show opened up at 10:00 AM.
I do have to point out that Charmy and EagleEye are two of the stalwarts that stick around because it's their job (I would guess) and of course PCGS, NGC and DLRC along with a few other well respected and upstanding people/dealers.
It would be nice if I could leave my job early because...well......just because.
Why even purchase a table? Why don't they just have shows for dealers and not invite the public?
This subject always gets my blood boiling and now it's ambro's fault for bringing it up.
At my monthly sunday show, most dealers pack up around noon (myself normally around 11am). There are dealers that come specifically around noon to take over the tables that have been vacated. I would encourage show organizers to offer similar ideas where they offer significant discounts on vacated tables after a a fully paid up dealer leaves.
While I understand that show organizers want to keep dealers there from start to finish in order to attract crowds, they have to understand that its possible that some dealers are actually people as well with their own personal lives. Some dealers dont travel with spouses and other family and being away for extended periods is very tough on families.
The whitman show officially opens on thursday. There are many dealers that get in as early as the previous Saturday to start doing business and lot viewing etc. By the time the following Saturday rolls around they have been away from home for 7 days and most are just burnt out.
Those dealers who choose to stay have the added benefit of doing extra business and making more money. Those that choose to leave dont get that extra day of show traffic.
@ColonelJessup said:
Long Beach sometime in 1981. Saturday noonish. Dave Berg asks me if I have a specific $500 coin, and when I come back the next AM he's gone. Two weeks later, I hand him the coin at the next show and ask him where he was.
"Rick, my kids don't know it's Long Beach. They only know it's Sunday."
This is just a wonderful quote and one that I hear every week in my house
From my experiences at Baltimore I have to disagree with you! I know for a fact the Grading services bail out usually by Saturday around noon-2 ish! Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!
I have learned that the opening day (for the public), at the opening time is the only time to be at the Central States Show, even than some of the dealers just might complain how bad sales are at 10:30 AM when the show opened up at 10:00 AM.
I do have to point out that Charmy and EagleEye are two of the stalwarts that stick around because it's their job (I would guess) and of course PCGS, NGC and DLRC along with a few other well respected and upstanding people/dealers.
It would be nice if I could leave my job early because...well......just because.
Why even purchase a table? Why don't they just have shows for dealers and not invite the public?
This subject always gets my blood boiling and now it's ambro's fault for bringing it up.
Seems a few collectors blame dealers for leaving but the truth is that collectors just don’t show up to make it worthwhile. If droves of buying collectors showed up then guess what the dealers would stay. Chicken and Egg syndrome. Stop blaming the dealers and look at reality
@amwldcoin said:
From my experiences at Baltimore I have to disagree with you! I know for a fact the Grading services bail out usually by Saturday around noon-2 ish! Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!
I have learned that the opening day (for the public), at the opening time is the only time to be at the Central States Show, even than some of the dealers just might complain how bad sales are at 10:30 AM when the show opened up at 10:00 AM.
I do have to point out that Charmy and EagleEye are two of the stalwarts that stick around because it's their job (I would guess) and of course PCGS, NGC and DLRC along with a few other well respected and upstanding people/dealers.
It would be nice if I could leave my job early because...well......just because.
Why even purchase a table? Why don't they just have shows for dealers and not invite the public?
This subject always gets my blood boiling and now it's ambro's fault for bringing it up.
Disagree all you want but this is the way it has been for years here in Illinois and the reason I have "lost money" and asked my employer for the third Thursday of April off for the last several of years.
"Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!"
You need to pay more attention to the people that care about the hobby.
Grading services have been at the show until the end in my neck of the woods (but than again it's a three day show, Thursday-Saturday)
@ms70 said:
Given the prevailing perspective from some dealers here, I don't understand why multi-day coin shows even bother to be open on Sunday at all.
Sorry if I miffed off any dealers EXCEPT Kove and ms70.
@amwldcoin said:
From my experiences at Baltimore I have to disagree with you! I know for a fact the Grading services bail out usually by Saturday around noon-2 ish! Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!
I have learned that the opening day (for the public), at the opening time is the only time to be at the Central States Show, even than some of the dealers just might complain how bad sales are at 10:30 AM when the show opened up at 10:00 AM.
I do have to point out that Charmy and EagleEye are two of the stalwarts that stick around because it's their job (I would guess) and of course PCGS, NGC and DLRC along with a few other well respected and upstanding people/dealers.
It would be nice if I could leave my job early because...well......just because.
Why even purchase a table? Why don't they just have shows for dealers and not invite the public?
This subject always gets my blood boiling and now it's ambro's fault for bringing it up.
Welcome to Central States amwldcoin..........SHOW IS OVER!.........Please exit on the door on your left.
@ScarsdaleCoin said:
Seems a few collectors blame dealers for leaving but the truth is that collectors just don’t show up to make it worthwhile. If droves of buying collectors showed up then guess what the dealers would stay. Chicken and Egg syndrome. Stop blaming the dealers and look at reality
Dealer!
You are all the same in my book ..............buy low and sell high.
On the other hand, as collectors, we want to put boat loads more money into the dealers pockets and save some of our money for the next dealer.
Look.......I use to subscribe to Coin World back in the 1980's and in the classifieds I saw lots of ads like "local show Saturday at the Holiday Inn at route 45 and 83 in XXXX IL 10:00 AM-5:00 PM" and I attended almost every month because that was the frequency of these shows.
I don't see dealers anymore (except once a year) because they hide behind a computer monitor.....and that's fine in my book because I see their coins on my computer.
OK, I do have to admit that I do like a very few of the dealers I have done business with in person (and a few more that I have dealt with online), but mostly I like the people (not dealers) that I deal with on sites like the one I'm posting on right now.
"Seems a few collectors blame dealers for leaving but the truth is that collectors just don’t show up to make it worthwhile. If droves of buying collectors showed up then guess what the dealers would stay. Chicken and Egg syndrome. Stop blaming the dealers and look at reality"
Save your money SC, just stop going to these usless shows!
it is clear to me that at a large show such as this past Baltimore one there is a clear order of importance:
1.) Auction House holding the main sale.
2.) dealers.
3.) collecting public.
what tends to drive these shows is the auction, it's why everyone who really counts and really has money to spend gets there the week or weekend ahead of time to view lots in-hand. the auctions start on Mon/Tues and wrap up on Thursday just in time for the bourse to open and the public to arrive. that means the dealers have already done the bulk of dealer-dealer trading, any collector who has planned well is done by Friday and most of the money is spent.
while weekend warriors are just arriving everyone else is ending a week of action and set to go home. the solution seems clear, if you really want to play you might need to take some vacation time and show up early after having already made contact with anyone you need to meet.
denying the dynamics of how the dealers operate and whining when they're gone on Sunday is always an option, though.
Deals are made, every day. I really don’t think the dealers who left care if they missed anything. But this is a good topic of discussion, just the same.
@ms70 said:
Given the prevailing perspective from some dealers here, I don't understand why multi-day coin shows even bother to be open on Sunday at all.
I think most of the promoters have to include Sunday in the facility rental package. Their only option is to simply walk away from the show that day; they can't just pass on it.
Sunday can be fun. When I was going to the Bay State show, which used to be in Boston, the collectors and small dealers who got to set up for free on Sunday used to bring some interesting stuff.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I am not a dealer and have not had the show sales experience. Being a collector - and buyer - I always showed up at the opening of the show on Saturday.... actually before it opened and waited in line. I usually spent 4 - 5 hours at the show, talking to dealers, forum members, buying coins. Depending on the size of the show, I would make three rounds at larger shows... maybe four at small shows.... I almost never went home without buying something. There is a big difference between coin shows and gun shows. At gun shows, the dealers rarely leave early. And customers at gun shows often come more than one day.... The large, monthly gun show in Puyallup, WA., had over 800 tables and I never saw a slow day there. So, different market, different dynamics...there was still dealer to dealer movement at the gun shows... also many private tables. Oh yes, there was also a couple of coin tables at the gun shows... coins and guns seem to go together. Cheers, RickO
Even at one day shows the most driven dealers wait for the doors to open and are Johnny on the spot, snapping up the fresh material, so by the time the collectors start coming in it has either been relisted at higher prices or is unavailable. Baltimore has their dealer day and as usual wholesale opportunities are few and far between by the time the collectors and vest pocket dealers have come in. The same problem exists in other venues with early bird fees; like a local flea market that has sharp buyers come in pre-dawn with their flashlights for deals, and the local library book sale. Donated books get snapped up by dealers for a couple bucks max. by the hundreds by dealers. Soon relisted on ebay and Amazon which have easy templates. Not fair to the book donors.
Maybe They are following scriptural recommendations to honor the Sabbath, so they do not sell on Sunday?
Once again, those who don't dictate those who do. I do set up, not coin, but Automotive. A big show, with 5000, yes, 5000 spaces, starts on Wednesday, and runs through Sunday, but by 2 ish Saturday, crowds are diminishing quickly as, realistically, the good stuff is gone. Also, some people, hard as it is to believe, set up not to sell, but to buy, and when the money is gone, they go. Also, some sell out, or sell down to the point, why bother to stay.
Crowds know it, dealers know it, so why fight the death spiral. My rule of thumb is after noon on Saturday, no sales for an hour means time to pack and go. Do I lose sales? yes. Am I going to fret over it? No.
Are there killer deals on Sunday? Yes. Will I cede the killer deal to someone else? Yes.
@mustangmanbob said:
Maybe They are following scriptural recommendations to honor the Sabbath, so they do not sell on Sunday?
Are there any dealers who refuse to do business on Saturday or Sunday or other religious holiday for religious reasons? There were a few chess grandmasters who refused to play on Saturday.
I was able to make the Baltimore show on Thursday this year. FWIW... I did all of my buying that day. I think I did fairly well but that's not to say I'd have made different purchases had I gone on Saturday or Sunday. I tend to buy from just 3 or 4 dealers... copper from mainly just one. So, It might be predicated on their availability. Perhaps this is what the OP is alluding to.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
The only problem I see is that Saturday and Sunday are the days that young children go to coin shows. No school. Family outing. I've noticed it. So the experience they get is a mausoleum type exhibit hall that's deserted by So many dealers. Not a good way to encourage their interest in the hobby. Other than that it doesn't bother me. But I'm not 11 years old.
All of my local shows made an attempt to combat this issue of Sunday leaving (it also doesn' help that I'm in the south). The shows have been gradually changing their dates to Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Friday, Saturday only. At the past Biloxi show a few weeks ago, even with there not being a Sunday option, dealers were packing up early on Saturday, or even Friday! Most dealers were gone by 12PM Saturday.
It was sad to say the least. It must just be human mentality to try and "beat the crowd by getting out early." No matter what day it is ending on, the dealers will leave early. The shows could be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and dealers would leave on Tuesday- 12PM.
Given the long deteriorating scenario surrounding coin shows, I see no way to fault collectors or dealers.
(Both should be considered as the consumers at a show.)
The responsibility for show-related marketing problems falls squarely on show promoters.
Today’s coin show promotors use the same basic unimaginative format used
50-75 years ago.
New promoters have rebranded shows, but the “show” hasn’t evolved.
What’s needed is some transformative show promotors.
@boyernumismatics said:
All of my local shows made an attempt to combat this issue of Sunday leaving (it also doesn' help that I'm in the south). The shows have been gradually changing their dates to Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Friday, Saturday only. At the past Biloxi show a few weeks ago, even with there not being a Sunday option, dealers were packing up early on Saturday, or even Friday! Most dealers were gone by 12PM Saturday.
It was sad to say the least. It must just be human mentality to try and "beat the crowd by getting out early." No matter what day it is ending on, the dealers will leave early. The shows could be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and dealers would leave on Tuesday- 12PM.
Your story about the sooner the shows end the sooner the dealers leave reminded me of a joke I used to tell. I would stay up late talking online and I would always say "OMG I better go to bed, I have to be up in 10 minutes."
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Raybo, I attend 35-45 shows a year... in fact I'll be up at 5am to be at a two day show in NY Fri and Sat... and I'll stay pretty much to the end.... but at Baltimore you want me to sit at my table to watch 10 people walk around? really... Im working 12 hour days Wed, Thur, Fri and most of Sat... sorry if I dont want to waste 6 hours of my life for little business...again if lots of collectors showed up Sat afternoon then a lot of dealers would stay....until you sit on the other side of the table and walk in a dealers shoes you really dont know what its like.... and last but not least many of the dealers have flights or driving back 4-8 hour travel trips....since it gets dark at 5pm nowadays many want to get a little head start so they can be home before midnight
I used to be disappointed at the fact that dealers leave early. Then I realized that many are probably working Monday to Friday too, and it is unfair to expect them to work 7 days a week if the sales are just not there. I also suspect that they can wrap up all of their dealer-dealer work in one day or maybe even before the show opens to the public, and that the retail sales happen back at the store or online. So I now buy online where they are happy to sell to me, as opposed to at a show where I am a nuisance. Yes, it is nicer to hold the coin in your hand before buying it. But, alas, times they are a changin’.
As for YN’s, I have one. You know what YN’s like? Computers. I can show her coins on the internet that she would never see at a local show (or be shown at a big one). It’s not about searching through dealer junk boxes to put pennies in your Whitman album anymore. She can have a much better numismatic experience online than she would at a local show full of old men, or at a national show where no one would have an interest.
All if the above may be true but it is a sad state of affairs. Coin collectors seemed to be a little less encompassed by the virtual world. Next up is the elimination of the hobby if we surrender to a virtual currency as many have already done. Then we will be left with a few collectors of "antique money". Oh well, prices will be lower then, at least.
Went to an antique mall yesterday. Saw a bunch of coin and currency in compartmentalized cabinets. No negotiations. One just asks a clerk to assist and they open it up to potential buyers. After that ( no buys worth having), went to a coin and jewelry store looking for bezels for silver eagles ( to fill a customer order). No such luck. Then, I asked the guy if he had any Eagles ( silver ). The answer was “ No, they always sell out quick”. So, I asked if he needed any. He said they only buy what walks in the door. They don’t order bulk. Pity, I had a few rolls if he really wanted to deal.
It is Sunday, today. Here I am. Who is looking for what ? Apparently only you guys and me can’t find what it is.
While in the coin and jewelry shop, yesterday; I overheard a guy say “ I’m loading up on silver “. I wondered how. Didn’t see any bars or I would have ordered a drink.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Went to an antique mall yesterday. Saw a bunch of coin and currency in compartmentalized cabinets. No negotiations. One just asks a clerk to assist and they open it up to potential buyers. After that ( no buys worth having), went to a coin and jewelry store looking for bezels for silver eagles ( to fill a customer order). No such luck. Then, I asked the guy if he had any Eagles ( silver ). The answer was “ No, they always sell out quick”. So, I asked if he needed any. He said they only buy what walks in the door. They don’t order bulk. Pity, I had a few rolls if he really wanted to deal.
It is Sunday, today. Here I am. Who is looking for what ? Apparently only you guys and me can’t find what it is.
While in the coin and jewelry shop, yesterday; I overheard a guy say “ I’m loading up on silver “. I wondered how. Didn’t see any bars or I would have ordered a drink.
Silver Eagles ?....some B&Ms aim to buy 1-3 bucks under spot... doubt they can buy that price in bulk
This is discussion misses the point. Like big brick and morter stores, online is where it is at. Ever since Ebay came around every major show is on the decline. They have Sundays because the convention centers make them.
I still say you know the show dates months in advance. You have a chance to plan to go earlier then Sundays. If there was real business to be done (one or two people doing a little is not a lot), then you would see more dealers staying. Economics dictates, dealers being tired from a long week wouldn't happen as much if real money could be made.
Has anyone ever sat in a heritage auction not at a show where they have gotten record prices and seen only 1-2 other people in the room? Shows are not money makers any more for most auction houses and dealers
simple solution forbid all dealer to dealer transactions until sunday afternoon at 5 pm . Collectors get first crack at the good stuff. If they try any funny stuff chain their ankle to the table leg and give them a chamber pot.
Comments
RE: "what is broken that needs to be improved?"
If visitors/customers attend expecting to find a fully-populated show venue, and find only a scattering of dealers, that means the operation is "broken," as in failing to meet customer expectations. Certainly a depopulated show floor is detrimental to building public interest and new collectors?
However, if the real customers are dealers themselves, then there is no need of paying attention to the general public or coin collectors. In that situation, would it not be better to assemble the dealers in a private venue and let them conduct business for a day or two, then depart ad lib? This would be much cheaper, safer and efficient than the present coin show/bourse approach.
Or possibly -- Two "Aristocrat Dayz" for dealers only, followed by two "Plebian Dayz" attended only by dealers who want public interaction and will remain both days. (Fri & Sat ?)
The "Aristocrats" pay only for the limited two days and get no plebian exposure.
I wrote about this in my March 2010 newsletter (see below), and not much has changed since then.
"I was at another dealer's table late on Saturday when a collector asked this question: Why don't more dealers stay on Sunday? Here's the answer:
Some dealers have long flights and it's difficult to find a flight on Sunday. Some dealers have full-time jobs and they need a day off before Monday. Some dealers want to spend time with their families. For me, I would stay through Sunday if it made business sense. But the fact is that for shows longer than 2 days, Sunday is a very low sales day for me. For at least 90% of the shows with a mandatory Sunday, my Sunday sales (sales, not profits) were less than the cost of an extra day's hotel and meals costs."
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The ANA is already like this (so I hear).
Preshow, show.....with many dealers doing the bulk of their business at the preshow.
Staying around until the bitter end might sound cool to you, but as I dealer, I can tell you that it doesn't work out that way. I have stayed until they turned the lights out, or very dim, at the winter FUN show. There were virtually no customers and chances for valuable contacts are nil. About the only thing you can do is maybe make a purchase or two. All shows hit a wall for dealers at a certain point for certain dealers. Staying beyond that is pointless.
If you have a store, does it make sense to stay open to 11 PM when most everyone else has closed at 9 PM? The answer is no, and the same thing applies here too.
Not to oversimplify it, because I know there are differences, but a B&M store of any kind almost always posts its business hours, and customers expect them to be open during those times. I am sure some blocks of time or even entire days are less profitable than others, but that is part of the cost of doing business.
I do like the idea of a preshow and then a show, so the dealers who don't want to deal with the small time riff raff can skip town early. I am certain that a lot of sales to the pubic are tedious and not very lucrative, so dealers who don't want to mess with that can avoid having to engage in the charade that they are there to do business with the general public.
I respect this statement and understand the point of view. We always joke that you could set your hours to be open 23 1/2 hours a day and someone would pull on the door that one half hour and grip about it online or someplace. The point I’m making is that when you set your hours, keeping them has always been a basic tenet to success. When things are slow I can see cutting loose a staff member early but we always stay open. But were talking about shows not B&Ms.
I agree that a show may hit a wall at some point and it become pointless for anyone to be there, its just that nobody seems to agree on when that is and it can get weird during a show when every 4th booth is suddenly empty, then every other and so on at times with a day to go. I don’t have the answers, it just seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. No one is at the show so Ill leave, I wonder what came first.
Well, last coin show I set up at ended Sunday. I stayed and sold a $450 coin at the last minute right before close . So I'm glad I stayed !
The coin shows should NOT advertise "Sunday" if the vast majority of dealers won't stay until then...or even into most of the show hours on Sunday.
It's that simple, to me.
If the shows have dealers buy tables, then there should be an agreement on the days/times. Lacking that, maybe due to being worried that dealers simply won't sign up, then they should not advertise the show being still going on on a Sunday.
They could say "Show dates: Fri/Sat. Sunday Open Numismatic Bazaar" or something similar.
I hear the arguments about dealers needing to go home/travel/etc and leaving late Saturday or Sunday. I also know that, as a collector, one may not be able to GET to the show until Sunday. To criticize those collectors is just stupid and unnecessary to do. Sometimes, there are work, or family, obligations that get in the way of a collector getting there before then...and sometimes, people are trying to get their YNs to the show and Sunday may be the only day for it.
Yeah, I know, YNs aren't on the radar of necessity for these busy dealers booking out early. I get it.
Also, to me, committing to a show means committing TO THE SHOW. Leaving early is breaking that commitment unless it was agreed to at the original signing (and then, it would be nice if that was noted online and at their booth, in BIG LETTERS...."LEAVING END OF DAY SATURDAY....WILL NOT BE HERE SUNDAY", or something like that).
Truth in advertising.
End of the day, dealers will do what they want as most are independent and sole ownership. As long as they get away with it, they will do it. If the number of shows, and traveling, is too much, then they should pick and choose which shows and what downtime they need. If they have a "real job" to get to, then that is their business as well, but maybe they shouldn't do that show if they can't commit.
I'm sure I'll get some hate mail for my views, but, end of the day, with the internet/ebay/GC/etc, dealers need collectors more than the collectors need the dealers (and, if it is more about dealer to dealer show sales, then they could still have those and just not call it a show)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I have to disagree here. I always seem to sell at the Winter FUN show on Sunday. Baltimore is a different story. By 2:00 on Saturday afternoon I'm a 100 yards from the nearest dealer in front of me from the door. I tried staying Sunday a couple of times in the past couple of years and it just wasn't worth it. Years ago it was! I remember 1 Baltimore show on Sunday I sold an 82 and 83 trade Trade Dollars along with other stuff!
I don't disagree with your perspective, however, I will offer another for your consideration and comment....
Perhaps had you shopped for offers on Friday when all the dealers were there you might have been able to get more than $10k for your coins.
Remember, there are two sides to every coin.
I was just literally typing this
cuts both ways
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
think risk/reward, that's what dealers base their decision on.
Here's my beef.
Long Beach used to be Thursday through Sunday. Sunday was a snooze, collectors didn't show up, and dealers left. So Sunday was removed. No great loss, it would seem.
But now, SATURDAY afternoon is a snooze. Dealers leave, and collectors, (the ones that are apparently not "stupid"), don't show up. Or, if you prefer, the collectors don't come, and the dealers leave. It's two sides to the same coin.
So, do we now remove Saturday? The one day that the general pubic can actually all get there? Most of the time, I take Friday off from work...but sometimes I can't. When I can't, does the show just not cater to me and those like me at all?
If the bleeping show is too long, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me to remove Thursday, and make SURE you have a presence on Saturday!! Otherwise, coin collecting becomes the hobby of the independently wealthy, and retired, who don't have to work during the week. Maybe it's already coming to that...but why push it that way?
To me, the question is not whether or not it is profitable for dealers to stay until the bitter end (it seems that it almost always is not), the question is whether or not dealers should be expected to stay, to make a commitment that they are expected to honor.
The problem is, the two sides are answering two different questions.
Why ambro?
I have learned that the opening day (for the public), at the opening time is the only time to be at the Central States Show, even than some of the dealers just might complain how bad sales are at 10:30 AM when the show opened up at 10:00 AM.
I do have to point out that Charmy and EagleEye are two of the stalwarts that stick around because it's their job (I would guess) and of course PCGS, NGC and DLRC along with a few other well respected and upstanding people/dealers.
It would be nice if I could leave my job early because...well......just because.
Why even purchase a table? Why don't they just have shows for dealers and not invite the public?
This subject always gets my blood boiling and now it's ambro's fault for bringing it up.
At my monthly sunday show, most dealers pack up around noon (myself normally around 11am). There are dealers that come specifically around noon to take over the tables that have been vacated. I would encourage show organizers to offer similar ideas where they offer significant discounts on vacated tables after a a fully paid up dealer leaves.
While I understand that show organizers want to keep dealers there from start to finish in order to attract crowds, they have to understand that its possible that some dealers are actually people as well with their own personal lives. Some dealers dont travel with spouses and other family and being away for extended periods is very tough on families.
The whitman show officially opens on thursday. There are many dealers that get in as early as the previous Saturday to start doing business and lot viewing etc. By the time the following Saturday rolls around they have been away from home for 7 days and most are just burnt out.
Those dealers who choose to stay have the added benefit of doing extra business and making more money. Those that choose to leave dont get that extra day of show traffic.
Let each dealer make their own choice.
This is just a wonderful quote and one that I hear every week in my house
From my experiences at Baltimore I have to disagree with you! I know for a fact the Grading services bail out usually by Saturday around noon-2 ish! Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!
Seems a few collectors blame dealers for leaving but the truth is that collectors just don’t show up to make it worthwhile. If droves of buying collectors showed up then guess what the dealers would stay. Chicken and Egg syndrome. Stop blaming the dealers and look at reality
"Don't know about the dealers you quoted but I suspect the same!"
You need to pay more attention to the people that care about the hobby.
Grading services have been at the show until the end in my neck of the woods (but than again it's a three day show, Thursday-Saturday)
Still a one day show for me,
Ray
If it were profitable to stay until Sunday, coin dealers would stay until Sunday.
Given the prevailing perspective from some dealers here, I don't understand why multi-day coin shows even bother to be open on Sunday at all.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Sorry if I miffed off any dealers EXCEPT Kove and ms70.
Welcome to Central States amwldcoin..........SHOW IS OVER!.........Please exit on the door on your left.
Dealer!
You are all the same in my book ..............buy low and sell high.
On the other hand, as collectors, we want to put boat loads more money into the dealers pockets and save some of our money for the next dealer.
Look.......I use to subscribe to Coin World back in the 1980's and in the classifieds I saw lots of ads like "local show Saturday at the Holiday Inn at route 45 and 83 in XXXX IL 10:00 AM-5:00 PM" and I attended almost every month because that was the frequency of these shows.
I don't see dealers anymore (except once a year) because they hide behind a computer monitor.....and that's fine in my book because I see their coins on my computer.
OK, I do have to admit that I do like a very few of the dealers I have done business with in person (and a few more that I have dealt with online), but mostly I like the people (not dealers) that I deal with on sites like the one I'm posting on right now.
"Seems a few collectors blame dealers for leaving but the truth is that collectors just don’t show up to make it worthwhile. If droves of buying collectors showed up then guess what the dealers would stay. Chicken and Egg syndrome. Stop blaming the dealers and look at reality"
Save your money SC, just stop going to these usless shows!
The shows I go to I show up early Friday or Saturday morning. If there's something I like I buy it. I don't worry about who is or isn't there.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
it is clear to me that at a large show such as this past Baltimore one there is a clear order of importance:
1.) Auction House holding the main sale.
2.) dealers.
3.) collecting public.
what tends to drive these shows is the auction, it's why everyone who really counts and really has money to spend gets there the week or weekend ahead of time to view lots in-hand. the auctions start on Mon/Tues and wrap up on Thursday just in time for the bourse to open and the public to arrive. that means the dealers have already done the bulk of dealer-dealer trading, any collector who has planned well is done by Friday and most of the money is spent.
while weekend warriors are just arriving everyone else is ending a week of action and set to go home. the solution seems clear, if you really want to play you might need to take some vacation time and show up early after having already made contact with anyone you need to meet.
denying the dynamics of how the dealers operate and whining when they're gone on Sunday is always an option, though.
Deals are made, every day. I really don’t think the dealers who left care if they missed anything. But this is a good topic of discussion, just the same.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I think most of the promoters have to include Sunday in the facility rental package. Their only option is to simply walk away from the show that day; they can't just pass on it.
Sunday can be fun. When I was going to the Bay State show, which used to be in Boston, the collectors and small dealers who got to set up for free on Sunday used to bring some interesting stuff.
I am not a dealer and have not had the show sales experience. Being a collector - and buyer - I always showed up at the opening of the show on Saturday.... actually before it opened and waited in line. I usually spent 4 - 5 hours at the show, talking to dealers, forum members, buying coins. Depending on the size of the show, I would make three rounds at larger shows... maybe four at small shows.... I almost never went home without buying something. There is a big difference between coin shows and gun shows. At gun shows, the dealers rarely leave early. And customers at gun shows often come more than one day.... The large, monthly gun show in Puyallup, WA., had over 800 tables and I never saw a slow day there. So, different market, different dynamics...there was still dealer to dealer movement at the gun shows... also many private tables. Oh yes, there was also a couple of coin tables at the gun shows... coins and guns seem to go together.
Cheers, RickO
Even at one day shows the most driven dealers wait for the doors to open and are Johnny on the spot, snapping up the fresh material, so by the time the collectors start coming in it has either been relisted at higher prices or is unavailable. Baltimore has their dealer day and as usual wholesale opportunities are few and far between by the time the collectors and vest pocket dealers have come in. The same problem exists in other venues with early bird fees; like a local flea market that has sharp buyers come in pre-dawn with their flashlights for deals, and the local library book sale. Donated books get snapped up by dealers for a couple bucks max. by the hundreds by dealers. Soon relisted on ebay and Amazon which have easy templates. Not fair to the book donors.
Maybe They are following scriptural recommendations to honor the Sabbath, so they do not sell on Sunday?
Once again, those who don't dictate those who do. I do set up, not coin, but Automotive. A big show, with 5000, yes, 5000 spaces, starts on Wednesday, and runs through Sunday, but by 2 ish Saturday, crowds are diminishing quickly as, realistically, the good stuff is gone. Also, some people, hard as it is to believe, set up not to sell, but to buy, and when the money is gone, they go. Also, some sell out, or sell down to the point, why bother to stay.
Crowds know it, dealers know it, so why fight the death spiral. My rule of thumb is after noon on Saturday, no sales for an hour means time to pack and go. Do I lose sales? yes. Am I going to fret over it? No.
Are there killer deals on Sunday? Yes. Will I cede the killer deal to someone else? Yes.
Drop Sunday and more dealers will cut out Friday. The Internet has spoiled both sides.
I know I quit traveling to shows. Can't make it when the dealers seem to insist I need to be there.
Are there any dealers who refuse to do business on Saturday or Sunday or other religious holiday for religious reasons? There were a few chess grandmasters who refused to play on Saturday.
I was able to make the Baltimore show on Thursday this year. FWIW... I did all of my buying that day. I think I did fairly well but that's not to say I'd have made different purchases had I gone on Saturday or Sunday. I tend to buy from just 3 or 4 dealers... copper from mainly just one. So, It might be predicated on their availability. Perhaps this is what the OP is alluding to.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
The only problem I see is that Saturday and Sunday are the days that young children go to coin shows. No school. Family outing. I've noticed it. So the experience they get is a mausoleum type exhibit hall that's deserted by So many dealers. Not a good way to encourage their interest in the hobby. Other than that it doesn't bother me. But I'm not 11 years old.
All of my local shows made an attempt to combat this issue of Sunday leaving (it also doesn' help that I'm in the south). The shows have been gradually changing their dates to Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Friday, Saturday only. At the past Biloxi show a few weeks ago, even with there not being a Sunday option, dealers were packing up early on Saturday, or even Friday! Most dealers were gone by 12PM Saturday.
It was sad to say the least. It must just be human mentality to try and "beat the crowd by getting out early." No matter what day it is ending on, the dealers will leave early. The shows could be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and dealers would leave on Tuesday- 12PM.
Given the long deteriorating scenario surrounding coin shows, I see no way to fault collectors or dealers.
(Both should be considered as the consumers at a show.)
The responsibility for show-related marketing problems falls squarely on show promoters.
Today’s coin show promotors use the same basic unimaginative format used
50-75 years ago.
New promoters have rebranded shows, but the “show” hasn’t evolved.
What’s needed is some transformative show promotors.
Your story about the sooner the shows end the sooner the dealers leave reminded me of a joke I used to tell. I would stay up late talking online and I would always say "OMG I better go to bed, I have to be up in 10 minutes."
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
You get the idea when collectors , customers are bashed, by some fool , arrogant dealers
Raybo, I attend 35-45 shows a year... in fact I'll be up at 5am to be at a two day show in NY Fri and Sat... and I'll stay pretty much to the end.... but at Baltimore you want me to sit at my table to watch 10 people walk around? really... Im working 12 hour days Wed, Thur, Fri and most of Sat... sorry if I dont want to waste 6 hours of my life for little business...again if lots of collectors showed up Sat afternoon then a lot of dealers would stay....until you sit on the other side of the table and walk in a dealers shoes you really dont know what its like.... and last but not least many of the dealers have flights or driving back 4-8 hour travel trips....since it gets dark at 5pm nowadays many want to get a little head start so they can be home before midnight
I used to be disappointed at the fact that dealers leave early. Then I realized that many are probably working Monday to Friday too, and it is unfair to expect them to work 7 days a week if the sales are just not there. I also suspect that they can wrap up all of their dealer-dealer work in one day or maybe even before the show opens to the public, and that the retail sales happen back at the store or online. So I now buy online where they are happy to sell to me, as opposed to at a show where I am a nuisance. Yes, it is nicer to hold the coin in your hand before buying it. But, alas, times they are a changin’.
As for YN’s, I have one. You know what YN’s like? Computers. I can show her coins on the internet that she would never see at a local show (or be shown at a big one). It’s not about searching through dealer junk boxes to put pennies in your Whitman album anymore. She can have a much better numismatic experience online than she would at a local show full of old men, or at a national show where no one would have an interest.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
All if the above may be true but it is a sad state of affairs. Coin collectors seemed to be a little less encompassed by the virtual world. Next up is the elimination of the hobby if we surrender to a virtual currency as many have already done. Then we will be left with a few collectors of "antique money". Oh well, prices will be lower then, at least.
Went to an antique mall yesterday. Saw a bunch of coin and currency in compartmentalized cabinets. No negotiations. One just asks a clerk to assist and they open it up to potential buyers. After that ( no buys worth having), went to a coin and jewelry store looking for bezels for silver eagles ( to fill a customer order). No such luck. Then, I asked the guy if he had any Eagles ( silver ). The answer was “ No, they always sell out quick”. So, I asked if he needed any. He said they only buy what walks in the door. They don’t order bulk. Pity, I had a few rolls if he really wanted to deal.
It is Sunday, today. Here I am. Who is looking for what ? Apparently only you guys and me can’t find what it is.
While in the coin and jewelry shop, yesterday; I overheard a guy say “ I’m loading up on silver “. I wondered how. Didn’t see any bars or I would have ordered a drink.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Silver Eagles ?....some B&Ms aim to buy 1-3 bucks under spot... doubt they can buy that price in bulk
This is discussion misses the point. Like big brick and morter stores, online is where it is at. Ever since Ebay came around every major show is on the decline. They have Sundays because the convention centers make them.
I still say you know the show dates months in advance. You have a chance to plan to go earlier then Sundays. If there was real business to be done (one or two people doing a little is not a lot), then you would see more dealers staying. Economics dictates, dealers being tired from a long week wouldn't happen as much if real money could be made.
Has anyone ever sat in a heritage auction not at a show where they have gotten record prices and seen only 1-2 other people in the room? Shows are not money makers any more for most auction houses and dealers
simple solution forbid all dealer to dealer transactions until sunday afternoon at 5 pm . Collectors get first crack at the good stuff. If they try any funny stuff chain their ankle to the table leg and give them a chamber pot.
Coin shows should post in ads like the Long Beach show stating that dealers participation may be limited.
For Sundays
At least everbody is warned in advance what might happen by going the last day.