Interesting SC$ on eBay of all places.

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keets
keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 5, 2017 4:06PM in U.S. Coin Forum

The medal is in an NGC capsule https://ebay.com/itm/U-S-MINT-W-W-1-22K-WINGED-VICTORY-UNIQUE-RARITY-10-SO-CALLED-DOLLAR-HK-902a/253243439937?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3Dd700d55cf80f4e5e82da277d8e54976b%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D172948710873&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 and catalogued as HK-902a. I wasn't even aware that it existed and unless I have over looked it, there is no Hibler-Kappen listing in either edition.

In short, HK-902a is a WWI Victory medal struck in 22k Gold and listed as an R-10/unique issue. To my way of thinking it should probably be in a major auction such as Heritage, but this may be a listing to gain exposure/recognition with a major auction forthcoming. Can anyone who collects these interesting medals comment on where it may have come from, where it has been hiding??

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

Comments

  • Jinx86
    Jinx86 Posts: 3,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Quite the rarity. You would think something of that calibre would have decent images.

  • jwitten
    jwitten Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I wish ngc would have taken a little more time drilling that hole at the top. Pretty sloppy looking.

  • KollectorKing
    KollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
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  • Outhaul
    Outhaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2017 4:56PM
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    Beautiful, even polished.

  • jonathanb
    jonathanb Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Interesting. I wonder who it was awarded to, and the circumstances.

    Note that this only "kinda sorta" counts as a So-Called Dollar, because it's looped. There are other (non-gold) versions of this medal that were never looped. There are also LOTS of examples in bronze that are looped, or had the loop removed.The truly never-looped bronze examples are much rarer than the looped and looped-removed ones. Of course, the gold one beats them all for rarity...

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2017 7:15PM
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    It's great that this piece has been assigned a HK number even though it's not in either edition of the book. It's nice to know that the cataloging continues. More info on this piece, including who wore it, would be great.

    The auction says this was struck by the US Mint but I'm wondering if this is conjecture or backed by records. Information from HK and others is that the dies were prepared at the US Mint and the medals were struck by Medallic Art Co. and Art Metal Works. It makes sense that the US Mint would strike a few pieces given that they made the dies. It would be great if there were records of this.

    As for price, it has a BIN of $49,500.00 and a starting price of $38,000.00. This is in the range of the two HK-1031 gold Wilson dollars being offered on the bay for $45,950.00 (PCGS AU55) and $39,950.00 (ANACS Unc details Net MS60).

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    this only "kinda sorta" counts as a So-Called Dollar

    1. No holed or looped material unless struck plain also. Our Nos. 1 to HK-3 are the sole exceptions.
      ----- there is no argument that can be made against its inclusion although I understand the sentiment. FWIW, I try to avoid any holed medals in my collection but it can tough sometimes. additionally, I have submitted one holed medal to PCGS which qualifies under the above (4) criteria: it was returned to me un-encapsulated and noted as "Damaged" on the insert.
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    A truly unique piece.... I would be interested in the back story... who it was awarded to, why etc.. Cheers, RickO

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    since it is linked to Steve Tannenbaum there should be someone who can "sleuth" their way to an answer. I suppose it was probably part of his estate or left with his company at the time of his death. that would be a logical starting point.

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    any help out there about the Tannenbaum link to this medal?

  • Treashunt
    Treashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Interesting price

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    One would think that a piece like this would warrant better pictures?

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • oih82w8
    oih82w8 Posts: 13,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have had WWI Victory Medals before (used to collect them)...but not in gold...the ribbon is very colorful, and there were several campaign bars for the ribbon.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • Weiss
    Weiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The medal is beyond impaired. I wouldn't pay melt for it.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 9:21PM
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    Unsold after being offered for:

    • $38k
    • $31k twice
    • $30k thrice

    Here's the description:

    U.S.MINT UNCIRCULATED RARITY 10 UNIQUE IN GOLD 22K

    THE MOST SIGNIFICANT UNITED STATES MINT STRUCK PIECE FOR WORLD WAR ONE.

    MORE RARE A SO CALLED DOLLAR THAN THE 1920'S GOLD WILSON SO CALLED DOLLARS.

    EDGE MARKED 22K , THIS IS THE SOLE SPECIMEN STRUCK IN SOLID GOLD

    AND WOULD BE THE DIAMOND TO ANY COLLECTION OF AMERICAN RARITY.

    THE WINGED VICTORY MEDAL IS LISTED IN THE SO CALLED DOLLARS BOOK AS HK#902.

    PRESENTING HK #902A , ONE OF ONE , RARITY 10 , UNIQUE.

    AS MILITARY MEDALS THAT WERE TO BE ACTUALLY WORN ON UNIFORM,

    THIS PIECE WOULD BE EXPECTED TO BE POLISHED AS PEDIGREED BY THE NGC GRADING COMPANY.

    NOT EVEN THE SMITHSONIAN HAS THE WINGED VICTORY IN SOLID GOLD MANUFACTURE.

    A CHANCE TO OWN A NATIONAL TREASURE.

    Hopefully it finds a good home!

    Thanks for posting it @keets. Definitely a unique and interesting piece!

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It is a rare piece........but to say "polished" is an understatement.

    Sad.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It is amazing that something like that has no indication as to the awardee. General Pershing seems to be most logical choice but without a paper trail ... who knows. Also, just how did it come to be on the market. This is something I would want to know if I were a buyer.

    Yes, it probably was polished as it was a military medal ... no a so-called dollar. It is lacking its ribbon and campaign bars, a negative.

    While it is rare in gold it is extremely common in bronze. I have an example, with ribbon and bars, that was my grandfather's.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Paradisefound
    Paradisefound Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I never seen it in gold. With that kind of price you'd think they would have more informations.
    The brass one is as beautiful

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    the seller states about it being polished because it was actually a medal that was to be awarded, presented and worn, the bigger question is to whom??? accepting that it was struck by the US Mint there should be records available to trace origin and provenance. since the insert notes Steve Tannenbaum, a fairly well known dealer of Coins and Exonumia, I would expect there is some type of information available.

    a few things that are solely my opinion --- depending on the nature of the "polishing" that NGC notes I would view that to be "as issued" for the medal. also, I would imagine that NGC has some sort of information as does the current owner. the best thing would be a Stack's or Heritage auction sale. rest assured, if either of those two sold it there would be a detailed write-up about what it is and where it came from.

  • Jimnight
    Jimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm surprised that more of the critical information was not added in the description.

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2018 10:46PM
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    Now offered for $63,000 by a different seller.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-20-HK-902A-SC-1-W-W-I-Victory-Gold-Medal-Ex-Steve-Tanenbaum-Collection/173231377293?hash=item2855650b8d:g:HFoAAOSwlJlatBku

    Here's some info in the description:

    Pedigree: Ex. Steve Tanenbaum Collection . Steve thought this medal was produced to be given to a High ranking General of W.W.I. or Someone in the U.S. Government.

    It didn't sell previously. Hopefully it will find a good home this time.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • blitzdude
    blitzdude Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Weiss said:
    The medal is beyond impaired. I wouldn't pay melt for it.

    Agreed, 5 figures? I wouldn't pay 3 figures. $28K dreck lol

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™
    Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
    Retiring at 55, what day is today? :sunglasses:

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    while I sort of understand everyone's disdain for the medal as listed, the statement by Weiss and agreement above is a bit ludicrous.

    I'm actually disappointed by NGC, that they would certify a medal which is Historically significant as "Genuine" without being able to provide any sort of origin. I suppose I should say that same thing about the eBay seller and the previous owner. someone, somewhere knows the provenance, probably the Executor of an Estate.

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2018 4:43AM
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    @keets said:

    In short, HK-902a is a WWI Victory medal struck in 22k Gold and listed as an R-10/unique issue. To my way of thinking it should probably be in a major auction such as Heritage, but this may be a listing to gain exposure/recognition with a major auction forthcoming. Can anyone who collects these interesting medals comment on where it may have come from, where it has been hiding??

    Thanks in advance.

    Al H.

    That medal was in a major auction. I stumbled across it not long ago. Unfortunately, I can't remember where. I'll try and hunt it down if I have time.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @keets said:
    while I sort of understand everyone's disdain for the medal as listed, the statement by Weiss and agreement above is a bit ludicrous.

    I'm actually disappointed by NGC, that they would certify a medal which is Historically significant as "Genuine" without being able to provide any sort of origin. I suppose I should say that same thing about the eBay seller and the previous owner. someone, somewhere knows the provenance, probably the Executor of an Estate.

    It's possible. But I've seen material that left the family due to financial circumstances and then makes a couple stops before someone realizes what it actually is. It might not have recently come from the estate of the original owner and the provenance becomes harder to establish.

    Must be government records, no?

    I find this mystery more interesting than the Omega

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Weiss
    Weiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have to say after carefully examining the new images from @Zoins ' post above: It's beyond impaired, and I wouldn't pay melt for it. It should be bought, cracked, and immediately smelted to put it out of its own misery.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Weiss said:
    I have to say after carefully examining the new images from @Zoins ' post above: It's beyond impaired, and I wouldn't pay melt for it. It should be bought, cracked, and immediately smelted to put it out of its own misery.

    I feel the same way about the Statue of Liberty. She's so heavily oxidized that not even Acetone or MS70 could help. She should be melted for scrap.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Weiss, do you believe the medal has any Historical significance??
    If it is subsequently established that the medal is traced to the estate of General Pershing would you still advocate for it being melted??

  • MsMorrisine
    MsMorrisine Posts: 40,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Any documentation to support a mintage of 1?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • Regulated
    Regulated Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That's a well-known, fairly common medal in bronze, and it's a shame that the ribbon and hanger are no longer with it. I haven't been able to find any evidence of a gold example being awarded, but will contact a friend who probably has some insight.


    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
  • SaorAlba
    SaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @keets said:

    I'm actually disappointed by NGC, that they would certify a medal which is Historically significant as "Genuine" without being able to provide any sort of origin. I suppose I should say that same thing about the eBay seller and the previous owner. someone, somewhere knows the provenance, probably the Executor of an Estate.

    I would guess that since it is R-10, unique that it was only awarded to one individual. I'm pretty sure the WWI records are still fairly accessible - a lot of WWII records were burned in a fire.

  • nencoin
    nencoin Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭✭
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    I knew that medal looked familiar. It's been bugging me since yesterday. After searching my old emails I found that it was offered to me in the fall of 2015. At the time it was in an non-pedigreed NCS genuine slab. I see that the medal is still located in the same state (Florida) as it was back in 2015.

    I had a hard time coming up with a value back then and I still am today. Having said that, I do think it's worth less than $10k.

    Northeastcoin.com
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 10:28PM
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    @nencoin said:
    I knew that medal looked familiar. It's been bugging me since yesterday. After searching my old emails I found that it was offered to me in the fall of 2015. At the time it was in an non-pedigreed NCS genuine slab. I see that the medal is still located in the same state (Florida) as it was back in 2015.

    I had a hard time coming up with a value back then and I still am today. Having said that, I do think it's worth less than $10k.

    The price is down $18K from the March 2018 price to $45K or best offer.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-20-HK-902A-SC-1-W-W-I-Victory-Gold-Medal-Ex-Steve-Tanenbaum-Collection/173231377293?

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Weiss
    Weiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Nearly two years later and my opinion is unchanged. It should be smelted, and the used crucible crushed with a sledgehammer so it can't contaminate anything else.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame

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