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When you find...YOUR... coin, you know it immediately....!! (newer pic added)
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have been fascinated ever since the age of about 15-18 with the 1848-CAL Quarter Eagle.
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Seems like you hit the mother lode, congrats
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Congratulations!! That's a spectacular coin. I've bought from Russ many times and have always had a great experience - he's a good friend and dealer!
Super, super cool! I have wanted one of those for about 40 years. They just always seem to be out of reach. Congratulations.
I share your sentiments. I see the CoinFacts description missed a very important attribution with regard to the CAL. While it is true that Gobrecht designed the regular 1848 2 1/2, he had nothing to do with the CAL addition. Based upon the fact that Longacre retained three of the original strikes for his own personal collection it is believed he was responsible for adding the CAL.
You may find firstmint's reference to the CAL coins in Longacre's collection of interest. The initial comments are with regard to my 1850 $20 which on its holder had been designated as a "proof" but which, in his opinion,like the CAL Quarter Eagles, was a "first strike."
Quoting firstmint (numismatic researcher and author Karl Moulton):
"After doing some quick research and looking for an answer to the reason for such a coin being saved, I uncovered the original appearance for this particular coin.
It came from the James B. Longacre estate (the coin's designer), and was sold in the January 21, 1870 auction sale conducted by
M(oses) Thomas & Sons in Philadelphia. It was lot #178.
The lot description was: "1850, Double Eagle, proof. This piece was from the first dies used for the double eagle, and might be termed a trial piece." There were also three 1848 CAL Quarter Eagles listed as being proof."
In addition you might want to take a look at the Q. David Bowers tome titled, "A California Gold Rush History." From pages 115 to 118 there is an extensive discussion regarding the 1848 CAL Quarter Eagles. He describes them as qualifying to be the first "Commemorative Coins" issued by the United States and also notes, "Among those acquiring such pieces [of the 1,389 minted] was Chief Engraver James B. Longacre, who preserved at least three prooflike specimens in his personal collection." He estimates 150 to 250 exist today and of course they remain the first coins as being struck from California gold. Details about the gold itself and as to how that gold got to Philadelphia are included in the narrative.
(Here is the full posting by firstmint (Karl Moulton) from which the above excerpt was quoted:
"That is certainly a distinctive coin [referring to my 1850 $20], However, in 1949, when Max Mehl catalogued it, he disagreed with the Proof designation.
Mehl had numerous real twenty dollar proofs (from 1871 to 1907) in the same sale to compare this item with, including a 1904, that Green purchased as a Proof, that Mehl correctly catalogued as "brilliant uncirculated with proof surface".
To have this in a TPG holder now, and labeled as a Proof (according to Breen) is a real misnomer. There is no evidence there were any ever presented as special pieces.
IMO, the coin is a first strike from the regular production dies, that happened to get saved and ended up in numismatic channels.
That would be the real story behind this nice coin.
Edited to add the rest of the story -
After doing some quick research and looking for an answer to the reason for such a coin being saved, I uncovered the original appearance for this particular coin.
It came from the James B. Longacre estate (the coin's designer), and was sold in the January 21, 1870 auction sale conducted by
M(oses) Thomas & Sons in Philadelphia. It was lot #178.
The lot description was: "1850, Double Eagle, proof. This piece was from the first dies used for the double eagle, and might be termed a trial piece."
There were also three 1848 CAL Quarter Eagles listed as being proof. However, most everything in the past that was prooflike has been catalogued and sold as a proof, even though that is not the case.
I believe the J B Longacre pedigree (as a first strike) is much more significant than the C W Green listing as a proof w/ enhanced surfaces.)"
And for completeness here was my original post to which firstmint was responding as well as a link to the full thread:
"One of the aspects of coin collecting I find most rewarding is collecting coins that have a story to go with them. Feel free to post the story that goes with a coin you have in your collection. Here is one from mine:
The coin: PR 62 1850 Double Eagle $20 gold piece
The story: As noted on the holder, it once belonged to C.W. Green. Interestingly in reading Breen's book cataloging gold proofs I came across a reference by Breen to the very coin. He noted that there were possibly several Presentation Pieces a/k/a proofs made of the first $20 gold piece available for circulation in 1850. He went on to note that Green was reported to have one, but that he had never seen it himself. In addition, the coin is featured on CoinFacts.com as its first described "Significant example" of the 1850 Double Eagle, and CoinFacts further notes under Mintage, "Proofs: Unique?" An added personal footnote to the story. When David Bowers was compiling his book on Double Eagles I afforded him an opportunity to view the coin and to my surprise he kindly added my name to the credits for sharing the coin."
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/620118/collecting-coins-with-a-story-a-k-a-provenance/p1
That's a splendid coin! Congrats!
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/653982/1848-cal-quarter-eagle
Right here on the forum was this info.
" Since all known pieces are devoid of any obverse deformation, it is widely believed that each coin was manually stamped while in the die. When Marcy questioned the Mint Director on the delay of completing the project, Patterson provided the excuse that stamping each coin with the CAL. logo was "time-consuming."
Yep, I bet stamping each coin IN the die ....was... a bit..... time consuming.
I've read that info about it being our "first commemorative."
Won't argue it but it seems a stretch as my opinion is that it was a "promo" to get folks headed West.
My fave book about the gold rush is "When the World Rushed In"
https://www.amazon.com/World-Rushed-California-Gold-Experience/dp/080613464X
Sure woke me up to the ...uh....glamor .... of the westward "RUSH"
It's a compilation of ACTUAL journal entries of one of the travelers.
Topshelve coin for sure. Topstuf, Love it.
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Amazing piece, topstuf! Congrats. I guess you're back into coins now?
Strangely, I was just thinking about the 1848 CAL $2.50 gold this morning, putting it officially on my bucket list. Probably from reading the article on the California gold rush in the new issue of the Numismatist.
Congratulations again on a great new acquisition to admire and reflect on history
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"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
A great coin with a fantastic history.
Well done, Topstuf. Spectacular coin!
One of the GREAT ones! Congrats!
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That's the only gold coin that's ever been on my want list...I've never been willing to part with the $ to get one.
I love the toning! Great coin!
Great story! Stuff like this keeps me in the game.
Nice coin too. Enjoy it for many, many years.
I never left. I kinda strolled over to the darkside and am still there.
Got my avatar during the hiatus.
Still no fan of CAC, but will always be a coin collector.
Sticker, picker, wicker.... didn't matter on the CAL piece. It's been on MY bucket list too long to pass up.
AND..... of course...... presented with the right coin....................well...... you know.
Excellent purchase. There are certain coins that " speak to us" and I can see why this one did for you.
Actually, that's terrific when they do.
Any time one can be "involved" with their collection is a good time.
Manifest Destiny!!! Awesome coin.
I'm curious how they shipped the gold from California to Philadelphia?
Great looking specimen! The color looks great. Congrats!
Congratulations. Opportunities like that are few and far between.
Very cool!
What is the nature of the metallurgy of the reddish color - copper?
What other impurities do you suspect? And, talk about the subtle toning a little. How would you describe it? Catalogue it for us.
I can see that your love affair with this coin is well underway. That is why they invented coin collecting in the first place.
Good job! Congrats!
I knew it would happen.
Lemme warm up my mass spectrometer.
Red on gold coins usually does mean copper.
But, as Guth said in that article linked above, no one is certain what the exact composition was.
Early on when I was poking around inside the Yankee Hill mine we had a geiger counter and it registered a TRACE of uranium.
Who knows or ever will?
SOME gold came out of Copperopolis when they were mining copper.
http://www.malakoff.com/goldcountry/copperop.htm
The Copperopolis gold ...I... have seen ran about .600 fine and lower.
Gold ain't gold all the time.
Anecdotally, when I had the shop, I had a pest customer who was always "pricing" gold.
Then he won the state lottery. Oh hell!
He smugly walked in one day bragging that he "beat MY price" on gold and proceeded to show me his newp.
A bucket of SMOOTH and very green nuggets. They did test gold but sure not very high grade.
It was kinda fun to inform him how wise he was not to have paid my exorbitant price for Maple Leafs.
But...... he only paid $60,000 for his "bargain."
A.....fool....and... his...............
Adding a newer pic that ...I... took yesterday. Not the best, but it captures a lot more of the essence of the coin than the first one did.
I think.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNMtWGnrrKmZLAROzB0oSGdHHMEsa74LHCUve_h
And NOW.... I can realize that I could have at least
POLISHED THE SLAB
before taking the pic.
Congrats!
Latin American Collection
@topstuf I missed your thread the first time, I am sure glad I eventually found it. This is a true "story" coin. Plus your personal connection to the coin makes its story even cooler. Congratulations!
It is of note that following the CAL designated 1848 $2 1/2, two new gold coin denominations were added ($1 and $20) after the discovery of gold in California. The CAL retains the distinction though of being the first U.S. coin minted from California gold and the $20 was first available for public circulation in 1850 and of course the first United States minted gold dollar bears the date of 1849:
"The gold dollar didn’t take its place in the U.S. coinage lineup until 1849, and yet another gold rush—this one in California—provided the spark. The discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill in 1848 energized Congress to expand existing uses of the metal in U.S. coinage and find some new ones.
Mint Director Patterson was still on the scene and still opposed such coinage, but this time his resistance was swept aside. On March 3, 1849, Congress passed legislation authorizing not only gold dollars but also double eagles—$20 gold pieces. Thus did the nation’s smallest and largest regular-issue gold coins emerge from Washing-ton’s womb as fraternal twins."
https://ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/gold-dollars-1849-1889-pscid-54
@topstuff....Great coin... with super interesting history. I have panned gold in CA... mostly around Oroville... lots of alluvial gold in that area. A friend I knew there had jars of nuggets..one as big as a small hen's egg...He would dredge the streams... Great country and a super coin... Cheers, RickO
I envy you for this, I want every gold coin I've ever seen haha
Beautiful coin top, love it
Q. David Bowers in his book "A California Gold Rush History" (in the pages cited in my post above) describes in detail how the gold was shipped from California to Philadelphia. Interestingly there actually was some gold north of the Los Angeles area that had been provided to the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia as early as 1843 that ended up in other gold coins. However, the gold rush gold was sourced from purchases made in California and transported by courier aboard ship. Details such as the exact amounts, names of the purchaser and ship(s) are well chronicled in letters from the period as described by the author. Apparently the gold was transported in a small oyster can or tea caddy. It was purchased at $10 an ounce. Some of the gold was used to make medals and it was the Secretary of War who requested some of the California Gold Rush gold be made into "quarter eagles with a distinguishing mark on each," one of which the OP has an example.
As per my previous post above, it is understood that the Chief Engraver at the time, James Longacre, was responsible for carrying out the addition of the "distinguishing mark" on the CAL quarter eagles.
The pages are 115 to 118.
Whoa! That's a pretty piece. I love the color.
Thank you. It's what made me do it.