What exactly does "the wrong person submitting it" mean?
Insider2
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Those words were used in another thread to explain why a coin received a details grade from a TPGS on a coin that many posters thought should have been straight graded. I thought the graders were unaware of the submitter's ID.
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Rightly or wrongly, it's the perception that some who submit coins for grading get higher grades than others. As a collector I have tended to submit coins for grading with a trusted dealer rather than submitting them myself.
it is as Bill explained, a BS perception that if you are tight with HRH or in some sort of dealer/collector inner circle you will get PCGS. some believe it and they are free to do that.
I've heard it used a lot, but doubt there is much merit to it.
The Grading room supposedly sees no names associated with any submissions. Right?
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In the early days of the TPG's you got auction wins coming in from leading dealers. Those were typically 10-100 high powered coins per submission. It might not be too hard to know who they belonged to. And the same would apply to major submissions/collections coming in for crossing, regrade, etc. You don't think PCGS knew when TDN's seated dollars came back through for a grade review?
I recall dealers in years past who would complain directly to the TPGs on the "low" grades they received first time around. Then resubmitted them and got better grades. This is not something I could ever do unless I submitted through such dealers....which I have done. In thinking back, I don't recall ANY coins going down in grade when I tried resubmitting them through a stronger dealer. Some did go higher though.
Perhaps it depends on how many coins are in an order and their quality. I've been told by a TPGS grader that he grades a box backwards because many submitters put their best coins at the end of an order to help encourage/force a higher grade. I also heard of grading a coin upside down but never tried that one. LOL.
I predict this thread disappears Monday morning.
I've placed them upside down, have pondered that for a long time.
It gives you an entirely different perspective.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Heck, I'll even toss in an like!
I cannot take a full image of a coin with my rig on a stereo scope so perhaps one of the members reading this thread could post a GTG with the coin images upside down.
Always nice to hear about the days of rotary phones all the time.
I don't think the TPGs care who owns what. They don't have the time to worry about it.
Seems to me that if you did receive 'preferential treatment' and get higher grades on your coins, you'd simply have a lot of overgraded coins that wouldn't CAC and wouldn't command the value of the grade on the holder.
Those in the know . Know
The stories that could be told!
@PTVETTER said: "Those in the know . Know. The stories that could be told!"
I guess you have heard some nice ones? I'm not asking about a "bone" or two that are tossed out. There is either a fact or a myth that Joe Blow average coin collector is the "wrong" person to send in a coin to a TPGS. IMHO, if this were true, it's a secret that could not be kept quiet. So color me uninformed as I'm not "in the know."
That's why I asked.
PS Old stories are great to listen to (I love to hear them) but they are just old stories now. So, IMO, anything that may have happened a few years ago that you know of does not count.
I think Littleton could get any grade they want.
I'm sure that if the graders receive 10 boxes of early date gold on Tuesday, they'll say to themselves, "oh gee, average Joe Collector must have sent in his set ".
All the so called big shots and has beens have all the stories. But of course they can not tell details. They got chops. Maybe belong to the mafia. Forgetaboutit.
I would just hope that every coin is graded on its own merits.
I think PCGS does a good job being impartial
Full disclosure......I have only submitted a few coins
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
It's not who you know. It's what you don't.
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Hypothetically speaking...
There would be zero need for a grader to even think about whose coins they are looking at. The grading room is computerized. Major submitters could have a fraction of a grade computer-added between the grading and finalizing steps. The grader enters 66.8 and the finalizer sees 67.1. For a mega-submitter, why not?
I have no knowledge or even suspicions that this happens. However, it seems a lot more plausible to me than a bunch of different graders guessing whose coins they are looking at, bumping the grades, and having this process remain a secret for 30 years. All it would take would be one disgruntled, fired grader blowing the whistle on the practice, and it hasn't happened in three decades.
Huge submitters get preferential pricing, why not .1, .2 or .3 points added by the computer? If that happened, I would consider it a part of doing business.
It wasn't that long ago.
Things just seem to surface if you set up at enough Nation or regional shows.
I am a huge submitter. 6'7" 265lbs. I still get shit grades.
>
It would be the corruption of what is supposedly an objective grading opinion. You cannot advertise that you provide unbiased, accurate grading and then trade grades for money behind closed doors. I'm not saying that happens, but if your proposal actually happened, it would open Pandora's box to say the least.
How could anyone prove such a thing? I would guess that it may happen.
I will say that I have specific knowledge of one coin that came back in a 58 slab, the owner/submitter made a complaint, sent the coin back in, and the coin came back a 63! This was not a reconsideration & no money changed hands. Obviously cannot reveal more details.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The bourse knows within hours if the graders are being kind, that is when you submit.
Poof?
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I can see that kind of thing. With many coins, the difference between an AU and Unc or "details" or straight is only one submission away and that probably does not matter if you knew the submitter or not.
This is kind of what I am talking about..
Some know when to and who to talk to at PCGS
Just as in life some opinion weight more than others.
That is funny!
Great. Im going to have Bill Belichick give you a call,. maybe you can fill a bench position for us. D-line?
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I have picked coins from the largest dealers out there, cracked them, and they upgraded. There are under-graded coins everywhere, and if you are always looking, boom.
If a dealer submits 20 grand worth of submissions, he better get a few grades. If they did not, they would no longer send coins in, and PCGS would be in a world of hurt.
It many time may be just a matter of numbers. The more you submit, you are bound to hit better grades more often.
Do PCGS or NGc graders grade only certain series of coins only or they just given a random box and grade whatever it contains
PCGS is 2 graders + finalizer the same for NGC?
How is the final grade is determined say A says 63 B 64 C Finalizer 65.
How do you think the big guys got big in the first place?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I had a friend that had a decent Chain Cent. Sent it in to both TPG's multiple times always receiving it back in a bodybag. Finally blew it out to a major dealer at Long Beach only to have that dealer shove it in his face the next day in a F12 Holder! Coincidence?....maybe.
If you send a 'dog' to be graded by itself, your going to get a 'dog of a grade' Send that same 'dog' sandwiched between some lesser dogs and you might get it through
or so I've heard.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Just reminds me of the old adage - where there's smoke...
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
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In the many years (18) I have been on this forum - and there are others here who have been around longer - this topic has surfaced many, many times. Never a shred of evidence to support it .... As stated above, it would only take one person to blow the cover off such a thing....and the damage it would do to the TPG... So, y'all are entitled to believe whatever makes you feel good... but for me, I believe the grading process - though obviously subjective, and as such, flawed.... is impartial regarding identity of submitter. Such preferential treatment would put questionable coins in their slabs and hurt their reputation. Cheers, RickO
I can see where the graders could know the owner of a really important coin. I can also see that coin getting a bit more time from the graders to be sure they agree on the grade. They don't want it coming back as over graded. I can't see them doing a favor for anyone.
Besides being usually confined to specific areas (ancients, tokens, etc) I should think that at least some TPGS graders are usually doing specific tiers. Example, John Roberts at ANACS. The new guy (except for some of you) is not started at the walk-thru level.
AFAIK your grading example is flawed. It should be an extremely rare case where three professionals at that level of experience say 63, 64, 65! That's completely different from this 58, 62, 64 or 53, 55, 58.
That is linebacker size these days.
I have felt that I was the "wrong person" on a few occasions for submissions
Could it be that different graders have different abilities or opinions?
Logic has it that if your coins are always graded by the same group of graders that you should always get the same grade? right? perhaps one of the graders had a couple of beers the evening before...and voila, anything is possible.
I have no idea how the large TPGs work? groups of 3 graders?
and then:
average of all 3 rounded up or down?
or do not count the highest or lowest and use the average of 2?
would be interesting to know.
Does anyone know?
As a member posted above: "Those in the know . Know." So I guess a TPGS finalizer would need to post the answer to your question. Don't count on it. It's probably like making a sausage!
this all fits in nicely to the loose definition of an Urban Myth.
when this kind of stuff is talked about it is always "I know a guy................" or "a dealer I'm close to told me that..............." or even "a dealer I know well knew a guy..........................." but the stories are always absent first hand knowledge or any real details.
and there is always the disclaimer added that "I can't give specific details because..................." so we are left to believe what we choose to believe.
My point in the other thread was about a small scratch putting a coin in a details holder, not a grade.
I do believe certain dealers had more to do with driving/demanding gradeflation, but we've beaten that to death as well. I have benefited from that and suffered from that, but that isn't an urban myth, you can prove it with 5 slabs and a copy of Photograde.
i do believe that it depends on the coin and the scenario. i am sure they don't care about who is submitting widgets...but when it comes to a high dollar coin...they probably do consider who submitted it, especially if they are on the fence about upgrading it.
Had a former grader tell me once he submitted certain coins depending on who the finalizer was that day.
Not sure how he knew after leaving - guess people talk.
I had a similar experience with a large cent. It was a condition census piece according the lists that some EAC collectors and dealers maintain. It also had a couple of famous previous owners. Yet when I submitted it to both of the leading services, it ended up in a body bag. I sold it via an EAC auction and got a good price. A couple years later I spotted it a major auction with a PCGS straight grade on it that was consistent with the grade I had once expected for it.
Both of the leading services were way too hard on early copper back in the early 2000s. They have loosened up now.