Is CAC really that important
oldgoldlover
Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
I read numerous CAC threads and see differing opinions. What does CAC know PCGS does not and why is something else necessary on PCGS graded coins? I have seen some real dogs with green stickers. I know dealers have an easier time selling CAC coins at a premium but I am not interested in the dealers well being and as far as I am concerned the coin is what it is. I do have some green stickers on slabs but assign no further value to them but if someone else wants to pay up for the stickered coin I have no problem if i ever trade or sell.
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I suppose it's not for everyone. It works fine for me. Especially on gold and even more so on old gold
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Seriously? Another....cac....thread?
Eventually most of us for whatever reasons will sell off our collection. When I reach that point, assuming current market conditions, I'd prefer CAC approved coins.
Right. What can be said that hasn't already been said a 1000 times?
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I have never seen a CAC sticker on a dog. Literally or figuratively.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Not meant as an attack, but it shouldn't surprise you given that your esteemed business partner makes CAC out to be everything in numismatics. She hasn't been shy with her soaring language insisting collectors should basically seek out only CACed PCGS coins. There may be exceptions here or there, but she pushes the PCGS-CAC combo most of the time.
To some it is everything. To others it means nothing. To others yet it is but one tool in your numismatic toolbox for increasing liquidity and potentially some (not all) market risk associated with valuable coins. I fall within the latter.
I collect 19th century gold. Going "CAC only" with my set suits me well.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
CAC really should start an essay contest: "What does CAC mean to you?"
Not necessary at all. I think PCGS and NGC plus your own skill Is enough.
...I thought CAC was on Vacation this week???
To answer the OP. A single individual has been elevated as the chosen one of numismatics. Over 200 years of collecting be damned, either earn the coveted blessing of this fellow or risk an eternity of stickerless plastic shaming.
One of the major boons to numismatics was TPG to assure authenticity of the piece.
Now, we are seeing the authenticity of the grade itself coming into question.
Even despite assurances that that isn't true.
The evidence suggests it is.
Who knows what elements are driving the current price swoon?
Something to think about.
This question can be answered in one word,,,,
YES,,,,,
I think this needs to be a poll
Is CAC really that important
On 5 figure and up coins CAC carries a lot of weight in the marketplace.
On sub-$1000 I don't see CAC as really that important.
CAC is very important to some collectors - for various reasons. The primary importance to most, it seems, is the premium realized when selling. To others, it is an added sense of security, and yet others, it is a badge denoting their skill in acquiring 'great' coins. In reality, it is a master stroke of business acumen and should be studied as a model for success. It denotes market knowledge, analysis, timing and, most important, a perceived trusted service. Cheers, RickO
I agree with some of the above. I have seen a few marginal coins with cac, but most are fairly nice. I only ever saw one cac gold I didn't care for, Most are superb. Whether or not you like cac or not, market perception on coins that count makes a huge difference in prices realized and even sale ability.
It's important enough on sub-$1,000 and even sub-$100 coins (ie common 64 Morgans) that they still bring a 10-20% premium. CAC is only important if as a seller you want the extra 10-40% premiums that their coins typically bring. Between 2 totally knowledgeable and negotiable buyer/seller pairs, CAC is sort of irrelevant as those 2 will come to a proper in 90%+ of all instances. And how often does that actually happen?
It's not a factor in what I buy and sell for most part as US big ticket Vintage coins only one area of Numismatics. I saw only a handful of CAC coins at the recent Houston Spring and Summer Shows.
No it's not really that important but seems to have many proponents here. My take is a few of them may have a material interest in the company or major financial investment In certain coin firms (whose inventory heavily CAC coins).
CAC coins a very Small part of EBAY numismatic market place. Major NN advertisers I follow (pricing analysis) have few CAC coins.
Learn how to look at, grade, and price coins. While I have seen CAC coins I consider PQ many other CAC coins I don't.
The coins don't care what the label says. Most of the longtime members here have the skills to identify quality coins. Those that do not should stick to the inexpensive sector of the hobby.
If there are more veteran collectors like me, the "swoon" is coming from those of us who love this hobby who feel like we are getting the hustle and the shaft. I have not felt this negative toward the coin market since the late 1970s when speculators were driving prices through the roof in the face of 15% annual inflation rates.
The prices keep going up and up for everything on my want list, yet the coins I am holding seem to do nothing but lose value. It seems like we are back to the 1960s when dealers charged very high retail prices and paid pennies on the dollar for the coins they put into inventory. Believe me the “pennies on the dollar” comment applies to what I see at the major coin shows. So far as what’s out there, dreck rules!
This market really sucks, and the people who are manipulating the show should heed this advice. If you turn off the core collectors, like me, who have some money, you are not going to have anyone of substance to make a market for you when you get ready to sell the material that you are now driving to artificial new price highs.
That goes for the clowns who are now paying over $20,000 for mediocre 1877 Twenty Cent Pieces that some for $5 to $7 thousand only a couple of years ago. This is the obvious example of the market abuse, but it’s not the only one.
How nice of you to lay out the rules...
I have only a single CAC coin. A PCGS AG03 1909-S VDB Lincoln.
peacockcoins
One of the major boons to numismatics was TPG to assure authenticity of the piece.
Now, we are seeing the authenticity of the grade itself coming into question.
no question in my mind.......................POTD material.
...and for you to anoint the king!
You ask "what does CAC know PCGS does not and why is something else necessary on PCGS graded coin?" If that is the standard, you would never have to actually look at a PCGS coin in an auction but could just trust their opinion.
jealous
Concerned.
I would feel much better with the CAC set up if it had been done in the traditional grading manner. A small number of professional graders that accept raw as well as previously graded coins and put them in their own holders. That way they would be going head to head with PCGS and NGC instead of piggy backing them.
I don't fault those that send coins in to CAC as personal financial well being will always trump the general good of others. My concern though is when the bubble bursts on these "special" coins and rank and file numismatist scramble for the next golden goose.
CAC created their own business and a new market. Whether it's viable over 10-20 years is anyone's guess.
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It's importance is related to the coin being considered. It is more important for some than others. It's easy enough to answer the OP's question by looking at realized pieces for similar coins.
A+ for business acumen. BRILLIANT!
If there's a common trait among coin collectors, it's ...insecurity.
Maybe ALL collectors if you want to get into the psychology of why people feel a need to collect.
Not really a fan at all; I pretty much ignore it. I prefer to use my own judgement to determine if a coin is 'nice for the grade'. But if others like it, and find CAC useful, so be it.
Dave
Psychology of collectors relates to demand so if you want to gauge prices when you sell, it's not a bad thing to understand.
Regarding the need to collect, some jokingly talk about OCD to fill holes and the like. You can take it to the next level by looking at specific things that need to be collected like key dates, Registry points, doilies, stickers, etc.
I can't improve on this "take" at all.
I'd like to see the "story" change from "they only look for top specimens IN the grade" to "no sticker means the opinion is that the grade is WRONG !!"
Not to me, heck I can make up my own stickers.
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He who has the money makes the rules.
Like it or not, as long as those with the deep pockets are buying CAC-stickered coins, CAC will rule.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Also not an attack, just an observation .... One may not be crazy about TDN's business partner's methods, but she knows how to market a product to a client -- her product is PCGS-CAC coins and she caters to deep pockets...period. That's a pretty simple business model when you think about it.
And she is tenacious. In fact, I'll go so far as to say she is the "Donald Trump of numismatics" -- everything she says is gospel truth in her mind, everyone else is wrong, every coin she sells is top-shelf while everyone else sells "dreck," and she tries to bully everyone into believing that PCGS-CAC is the ONLY way to go and that she is the only person that can "make the deal" for the best coins. Say it enough and people will believe it. Her modus operandi is very transparent. And that seems to be what people want these days haha. Disclaimer: I am not affluent enough to be a client.
All that said, I have absolutely nothing against her, as she appears to be a very successful businesswoman and is probably good for numismatics within the mesosphere of the upper tax brackets.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
OK, it seems I need to add a few more words,,,,,
My skills are not in question here,,,,, I do pretty good,,,,, it is simply a matter of economics,,,,,, coins with a CAC or QA Check Sticker sell for more than coins without the sticker. Often times alot more.
I get my coins stickered to maximize their resell potential and value for when the time comes to part with them.
I obviously haven't sent everything in that I own in but I am working on it.
If you have NICE Coins and you don't get them stickered you ARE leaving money on the table.
I'll admit I don't submit really low value stuff but that is not what I am talking about.
No problem there. A skilled grader has been expertly promoted as the only set of eyes worthy of blessing rare coins. For now the ploy is working, send the coins in for $13 and if you get the sticker you will likely earn a profit on resale even after expenses. Coin fails though and you scratch your head as to whether the MS65 Dollar is really an MS 65.
This could have been set up much better.
What are peoples thoughts/feelings about a coin that was AU58 CAC? Could/should it draw a premium price/value as if it were an Unc?
Since the sheet has broken out bid for USGTC and 20th century gold for CAC it wb be interesting where it goes. The CAC breakout was for grades 63 and above. I wonder if Morgan / Peace Dollars next.
In checking eBay for PCGS 64 CAC dollars there is a 1921 for $85, an 1882 at $115. check them out. I may buy the 82. Just did. I bid on some at GC but did not win any. May give another shot.
As far as AU58 coin put it on submission bus w others especially if over $300. Any premium subjective and depends on how important / badly buyer likes / wants coin.
In the coins I collect, unfortunately recent APR show declines of 20%-50% even in these. I'm really bummed out after the last few auctions since those kinds of declines are hard to (ever) make up. What's worse is there doesn't seem to be a bottom anywhere in sight.
I'm seriously thinking about selling all of my coins while I can get something for them and evolving to collecting sub $200 coins. They are much closer to $0 so a lot less room to fall in a decline.
The "authenticity" of the grade is an interesting topic. Though even in the early days of the TPG's (1986-1990) there was a vibrant crack-out industry as many coins were graded too harshly first time through. I'd say 1/3 of the coins in my own collection when I first sent them in during the 1987-1988 period came back a higher grade the 2nd time through....and essentially doubling what I could get for them.
I only sent back the ones I disagreed with. That was a mistake as several others were immediately upgraded by their next owners (ie 1850-0 half from 64 to 65 for a $6K gain and an 1840 wd 25c from 63 to 64 for a $4K gain...just to name 2). I should have resubmitted every one of them no less than 2-3 times. My first big sale in the TPG era was the Norweb collection (1987/1988). I bought half a dozen gem seated dimes in the first sale (59-0, 69-s, 76-s, 77-s, etc.). Only 1 or 2 of them came back NGC 65, the rest all NGC64's. That was punishing. Those all went back once or twice and regraded 65. None of them stayed in 64 holders for long. Most of those are MS66's today. The 69-s dime took a couple tries to make 65 back then...today it's a MS66 and in the condition census.
What does the above say about "authenticity" of grading? In the 1986-spring 1990 period sight-unseen buying did occur on even high powered coins...so the market did accept the assigned grades....that certainly was "authentic." Today? Not so much except in the most generic coins that still trade sight-unseen. CAC saw the opportunity and took advantage of it. CAC has been paying strong premiums for MS65 classic gold since at least November 2008 as I sold them a number of pieces at that time....it only took the CDN 8-9 years to catch up.
Whenever someone starts a CAC thread, another angel gets his/her wings!
In the end....all you have is the raw coin and what it can sell for....and hopefully out of the holder it stands as tall as it does with all the fixings. The plastic, assigned grade, stickers, etc are all superfluous. We discussed this very topic at length in the 2005-2008 market as it became overheated. It was clear to all of us that a good coin could (or should) stand on its own....while the pretenders would fall by the way side. It's sort of played out like that...with a few surprises.
No more important than the value perceived by the buyers and sellers. And then, the market still dictates the price; not any entity or individual.
It seems like a lot of answers to this question can be summarized by "not stickering means you lose money." That does not answer the question - you're basically saying that CAC is important because it is important.
I will repeat what I always do in CAC discussions, the advantage of a sticker to a collector, is that said collector can be pretty darn sure that there is minimal human intervention on the surfaces of the coin. This is a big part of the CAC evaluation. Coin can be eye appealing, graded properly, struck well, etc., but, if someone messed too much with it, CAC ain't gonna bean it. Hence, sadly, every coin without a bean must be carefully scrutinized for its surface condition with respect to intentional human assistance. That is partly tied to the value of the coin, so it makes sense that non-stickered coins go for less money. Now as Bill Jones will tell you, and I agree with, they ain't perfect, so caveat emptor, but you can get a great lesson in surface condition by submitting to CAC alot of coins.
Best, SH
Yes.