At the risk of angering TDN I will ask another CAC question.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you consider that the affect of CAC on the Hobby and its seeming importance to so many dealers/collectors is a reflection on the confidence of those dealers/collectors to accurately grade and detect problems of the coins??
Al H.
3
Comments
One could infer the same about sending coins to TPGs, no?
Many experienced collectors rely on TPGs primarily for their opinion regarding authenticity. Those collectors grade the coins themselves and determine the attractiveness/ eye appeal themselves.
A prominent dealer told me 5 or 6 years ago that all coins in their inventory over a certain value ($500 at the time) get sent to CAC. These guys were professional level graders but were looking for added value as their only incentive for submission. I think that explains 90% of the CAC activity.
No, I actually think most collectors (lower to mid value coins) are quite cheap with their money and they want assurances about their purchase.
One opinion is not enough (dealer), they need a second opinion (PCGS or NGC) and then a third (green bean).
Thank God there's not another company that grades the green bean.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The CAC Impact becomes more evident on big ticket items over $1000 and especially for MS66 and MS67 USGTC as evidenced by the bids reflected in the CDN. I would not attempt CAC a coin where the expense of doing so was more than 5 pct the cost I had in it but it's your money / your hobby.
The sheet has broken out USGTC and Early 20th century US Gold by CAC and non CAC. It will be interesting to see what follows. Certainly the CAC impact is being felt in US Gold CDN Bids.
When I was a kid, I found a 1922 no d. I remember walking it around a large coin show years later and none of the dealers wanted to make a fair offer. Finally, one of them told me that if I really wanted to sell the coin, I should send it in for grading to remove any doubt on its authenticity and grade and then I would get strong offers and it would be easy to sell. That was the first coin I ever had graded and the dealer was right. So, I guess third party grading and CAC have evolved to fill this gap in a market riddled with potential disasters.
Did all those dealers I showed the coin to not know how to authenticate or grade? Or was it that they wanted the assurance that the coin was 100% legit? By having the coin graded, it increased the liquidity and value of the coin in the marketplace. It was well worth the cost.
I have never sent a coin to CAC but if I had a coin only a whale could afford, you can bet your mustard stained shirt I would be sending it in.
I think dealers like CAC because it gives them a "pass" to ask more for the coins in their inventory. I think collectors then get sucked into this vicious cycle of thinking that CAC adds value to their coins because they paid more for them to begin with.
It's all about $$$....rinse, repeat (i.e., resubmissions, gradeflation, etc).
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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I am not sure why people seem to always try to give CAC some deeper meaning---I think it just identifies coins that are solid or better for the grade and in general have not been improperly messed with.
If CAC is that important, then why do so many of the coins that I bid upon in auctions, with out the CAC sticker, get pushed up to such high levels? Some of those coins have not been outstanding for the grade. Do auction bidders know something these CAC dependent dealers don't know?
....and Keets. why did you start another CAC thread dujour? The question could have been posed on the existing one.
Obviously someone wants them regardless of whether or not they've been to Far Hills or failed to pass muster there. The one reservation I'd have about a coin not passing muster is does it have issues or is it weak for the grade or both.
I do not. Grading and problems have been delegated to the TPGs so I think the popularity of the TPGs is a reflection on participant confidence. CAC is not about dealers/collector confidence in grading and detecting problems, but agreement with the TPG grade.
Did all those dealers I showed the coin to not know how to authenticate or grade? Or was it that they wanted the assurance that the coin was 100% legit
what prompted my question was the reply Mark made early on in the other thread about Gold.
there are certain areas in our Hobby where I feel confident in what I know, I won't hesitate with raw purchases. there are other areas where I am more than willing to admit that I have scant knowledge and to purchase raw would be a folly. to use the example given by hchcoin above, yes, I believe that the dealers he was offering the coin to "raw" weren't confident about their knowledge and that's why they passed. any number of members here would have bought the coin raw and probably saved themselves some money, so that's gets to my premise.
in the time which passed between 1986 and the formation of CAC I believe the Hobby has changed, services like NGC, ANACS and most prominently PCGS have moved to the forefront regarding how collectors(and yes, dealers) grade coins and learn how to grade coins. as that transition has happened one of the primary issues for discussion here and around the country in the past 15-20 years is that dirty word, gradeflation and its red-headed stepchild, overgrading. as Topstuff so eloquently posted in the other thread, now collectors/dealers not only need an independent verification of authenticity, they need a check on that and the grade that goes with it.
And there are coins that have passed the muster, that don't measure up. I'm compiling a file of them. I was finally able to smoke out TDN on that issue.
The bottom line is you are in the best position when you learn how to grade coins for yourself. Neither the TPGs or CAC can save you if you buy like a blind pig who depends solely on labels and stickers.
Many people relied on TPGs for independent grades in addition to authenticity before CAC. TPGs provide guarantees for both grade and authentication.
See this:
PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
And a person going it alone can bury themself quite easily by not being able to differentiate subtle differences in quality/gradation....raw or holdered. Unless you've put ten thousand or more hours into the craft, chances are you are susceptible. I've known dealers with 20-40 years of experience that still couldn't grade...who were blind pigs. What saved them was buying 2-3 grades lower than the coins were....something few collectors have the luxury to do.
No doubt the best of all worlds is to be a collector with close to world class grading skills and utilizing TPG's/CAC for back up. That covers less than 1% of all collectors.
Agreed, but it's unlikely that everyone who buys and sells coins will acquire those skills, just like most folks who buy a vehicle won't acquire the skills necessary to service the vehicle themselves.
Great question, I think this will make some angry also, but if you have heard the phrase "Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one".. It is the same with TPGs and CAC. They had the means to create it, and they marketed well. Now it is a thing. They did a great job.
Point is, if it is in a holder and has a sticker it is less work to sell and makes "dealing" easier. The "grade" I think is irrelevant to dealers moving bodies to make money...
regardless of whether or not they've been to Far Hills or failed to pass muster there.
this is a real pet peeve of mine, the default position that if a nice, expensive coin is absent a CAC sticker it must have failed when submitted. that used to be the adage about nice, expensive raw coins with regard to TPG certification, and it has been roundly debunked over the years.
that CAC premise is an Urban Myth and shouldn't be perpetuated.
CAC has a very easy job. All they have to is say “yes” or “no.” I wish I had that job for the money they making. I did it every time I went on buying trips when I was dealer and ran through the dealer boxes and cases. You don’t even have to match the price with the amount you think that coin is worth, which is often the hard part. All you have to do verify the grade, and if you have any doubts, the answer is “no.”
That’s a lot easier than the job the grading companies have, which includes authentication, grading and checking to see if the coin has been processed and made unacceptable to the market.
Given that the CAC batting average should be about 99%.
I believe this is an issue for lower priced coins. For expensive coins, the probability it has been submitted is pretty high.
One solution for more clarity can be for CAC to list "C" coins in addition to "A/B" coins in their cert look up. Are there other solutions?
So if you see a $20K slabbed coin sans bean up for auction at Heritage, it's just as likely that it was never submitted as it is likely that the coin was submitted, but didn't cut the mustard? A person really doesn't know for sure, but I'll err on the side of caution and opt for the latter.
Not yet....
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Actually there are several sticker companies at the moment. Sooner or later I'll bet we see a coin with one or two stickers in addition to a "bean."
Maybe "in addition to," but I predict we'll never see one that grades or "trumps" the magic CAC bean ... just like we'll never see another TPG that trumps the Top 2. With the Top 2 likely to hold their royal places forever and the 2-3 other bottom feeders picking up the scraps, the only room left in the grading market is the "sticker space," and CAC is firmly atop that mountain for the long haul. Granted, Eagle Eye Photo Seal and Wings are able to cater to a unique (and much smaller) segment of the market, but no one can argue that CAC is the undisputed king.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
John Albanese has an excellent resume in numismatics and is well respected by everyone in the business. When he says something, people believe him. I'm good with all of this.
If he is willing to buy a coin - which for the millionth time, is what the sticker represents - this makes said coin more marketable. People who are in the business of buying and selling coins want as much marketability for their product(s) as they can obtain.
I think this perceived additional marketability is more important than accurate grading or detection of problems in any particular coin. It doesn't matter how well you can or can't grade. If you can't efficiently buy and sell a product or service, you're not going to make much money in any business.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The CAC topic is religion, I don't really know why people keep bringing it up over and over as to want to convert some to their opinion (not going to happen). A strict right handed batter isn't going to decide to bat lefty one day out of the blue, and vice versa. The concepts of right/wrong, good/bad, helpful/not helpful, etc....these are just concepts, that's all. Let's agree to disagree and move on...some of us will go to church, some will go to synagogue, some will go to mosque, and some will sleep in instead ... accept people for their beliefs and let's move on in our hobby
If willingness to purchase is the indication, that's pretty weak.
All dealers will buy ALL coins at SOME price.
Even "at grade" .....BUT..... if the inventory happens to be quite adequate (or OVER adequate) then it only stands to reason that fewer coins are gonna get a sticker if they aren't ...."needed."
The whole concept would be cleared up if the bean meant the GRADE was adequate.
NOT that it's salable at that particular second.
I can certainly understand why a company judging "gradations of grades" would not want to spend any money to buy equipment to manufacture holders.
SWS "Sticky Wicket Slab company
SSDD
Some dealers deal primarily in widgets. They don't require plastic, numeric grades, or stickers; nor do they attract or command too much attention. Then again, we don't need a lot of reasons to drink, either.
I think you may have angered Tradedollarnut anyway...
Tis true though, CAC is not wanted or needed for everyone. I like it though. Not trying to convert anyone.
SSED
@mercurydimeguy said: "The CAC topic is religion, I don't really know why people keep bringing it up over and over as to want to convert some to their opinion (not going to happen). A strict right handed batter isn't going to decide to bat lefty one day out of the blue, and vice versa. The concepts of right/wrong, good/bad, helpful/not helpful, etc....these are just concepts, that's all. Let's agree to disagree and move on...some of us will go to church, some will go to synagogue, some will go to mosque, and some will sleep in instead ... accept people for their beliefs and let's move on in our hobby
"
EXCEPT for one thing that was posted above by @Elcontador which is TRUE: " John Albanese has an excellent resume in numismatics and is well respected by everyone [??] in the business... If he is willing to buy a coin - which for the millionth time, is what the sticker represents - this makes said coin more marketable."
This thread is about CAC's effect on the hobby. No INFORMED member here can deny that CAC has changed the playing field - just as the TPGS's did.
IMHO, at the minimum, 75% of the collectors/dealers buying/selling coins don't have a clue and need the TPGS (and CAC) or the informed, experienced, piranha's of numismatics would have already picked their bones clean...LOL.
Maybe we need to establish one day out of the year when CAC related topics are allowed to be started.
I'd suggest April 1st....But that may be too controversial.
Alternate: February 2nd, so we can make Ground Hog Day that much more special.
You can. All you have to do is provide the same service. What could be simpler? Nothing is preventing you from cashing in on this "easy job."
This is just like those who criticize the 20th century master, Joan Miro, by saying his work is so simplistic even I could do it. Well ... then go do it.
The work that CAC put into their "easy job" occurred over decades. The "stickering" is just the manifestation of building a solid and enviable reputation of knowledge and skills in numismatics.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
You just hit that over the wall Lane
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm assuming that most would agree the TPG's grading standards have shifted over the years. Tight periods and loose periods. I take solace that JA's standards have remained constant our the years. That opinion means a lot to me.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"Do you consider that the affect of CAC on the Hobby and its seeming importance to so many dealers/collectors is a reflection on the confidence of those dealers/collectors to accurately grade and detect problems of the coins??"
It doesn't say anything that hasn't already been said by the emergence of TPGs.
Wait,what? What about all the old holders he gold beans from the early years when he founded a couple grading services? Seems like his standards have changed as well.
Which of those exact coins did he personally grade? I think you are over thinking this. I think most are over thinking CAC altogether. Founding and grading are two different things altogether.
I'll stick with JA just the same.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
CAC standards have indeed changed. If I recall correctly, JA gave an interview where he indicated that he received some feedback after CAC's inception and made changes. For instance, CAC took eye appeal and luster into consideration more and would not approve thickly toned pieces in higher grades with somewhat muted luster and/or certain ugly pieces.. I also do not think CAC will approve putatively MS70ed copper anymore.
Does CAC cover up the grade on the label/holder before they render an agreement or disagreement with the grade? I think one way would be more accurate.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't overthink anything. You don't go over my head if that is what you think. He graded for the services n those days or was a finalizer what I heard. I was just making conversation then you gotta start circling the wagons. No I can't show you which coins he graded way back. Stop the bs will ya.
Bottom line we don't know as much as we should. Who are all the back up graders there these days. Why won't you let others have their opinions without trying to degrade them. Eh, ain't worth it.p
I never said whether I stick with ja or not. And don't recall asking you.
I wouldn't call that wholesale change. I would call that fine tuning. I thing the grading services have had much bigger swings. To each is own.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm bored.
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
I was also making conversation
Of course you can't show me. I know that. I think it's also reasonable to assume that John didn't see nor grade every coin back then that gets a gold bean today. I understand your point and where you are coming from.
Wow I guess I really struck a nerve. I didn't Intend to degrade anybody or their opinions. I apologize if it came off that way I use to be anti CAC FWIW.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am not anti cac. I have said before I would be a fool to ignore the market. It is some of the imo elitist attitudes that I have a problem with. Although I really couldn't care less. Heh
I am not going o go back and forth with semantics. Btw, no nerves struck here.
CAC adds a layer of confidence when buying online based on an image which seems to be the growing trend. The recognize a shift in the markets buying pattern and were ahead of the curve. Buyers and Sellers will still have their own opinion on the grade but that is part of the hobby.
I think some folks overthink things when someone asks a couple questions or calls bs on something that they are anti cac. And if they are so what.
@stman
I never thought you were. This subject actually probably strikes a nerve more with me the more I think about. I guess these relentless CAC threads I are indeed taking its toll.
Ill keep doing what's best for me and my collecting agenda.... quietly. I need to get out of these CAC threads before I lose my sanity.
I'm bamming myself from opening anymore CAC threads for 6 months.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......