I never thought you were. This subject actually probably strikes a nerve more with me the more I think about. I guess these relentless CAC threads I are indeed taking its toll.
Ill keep doing what's best for me and my collecting agenda.... quietly. I need to get out of these CAC threads before I lose my sanity.
I'm bamming myself from opening anymore CAC threads for 6 months.
mark
Hey good luck with the self bam. Well you can thank me later. Heh
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@Justacommeman said: "I'm assuming that most would agree the TPG's grading standards have shifted over the years. Tight periods and loose periods. I take solace that JA's standards have remained constant [over] the years."
I only know a little about the industry, enough to agree that grading standards have become looser over the years and there have been many periods of swings in either direction. While I can understand that each of us can decide if we would buy a coin at a certain grade - that includes JA - I don't understand how his grading standards have not "evolved" (the TPGS words) or been "fine tuned" (your words) along with the market swings.
PS This does not apply to CAC as AFAIK they have a grading team. It is something I thought of just now and I'll use it as my epitaph"
I
INSIDER 2
1940 - 2025
If I were the only grader at my grading service the grades would always be right.
@Justacommeman said:
I'm assuming that most would agree the TPG's grading standards have shifted over the years. Tight periods and loose periods. I take solace that JA's standards have remained constant our the years. That opinion means a lot to me.
mark
CAC standards have indeed changed. If I recall correctly, JA gave an interview where he indicated that he received some feedback after CAC's inception and made changes. For instance, CAC took eye appeal and luster into consideration more and would not approve thickly toned pieces in higher grades with somewhat muted luster and/or certain ugly pieces.. I also do not think CAC will approve putatively MS70ed copper anymore.
I wouldn't call that wholesale change. I would call that fine tuning. I thing the grading services have had much bigger swings. To each is own.
mark
I agree regarding the grading services. Forget about the rattler/ogh changes and even the older blue holders - the standards have changed from 3-4 years ago IMHO.
I never thought you were. This subject actually probably strikes a nerve more with me the more I think about. I guess these relentless CAC threads I are indeed taking its toll.
Ill keep doing what's best for me and my collecting agenda.... quietly. I need to get out of these CAC threads before I lose my sanity.
I'm bamming myself from opening anymore CAC threads for 6 months.
mark
This is tame. We could always bring Mr. McKnowItAll in.
Maybe all this obsession over CAC angers some people. I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't anger me. It is driving me out of my ever loving gord however. STOP!!!!! PLEASE!!!!! For God's sake....GIVE IT A REST!!!!
I think CAC's emergence is a very understandable when you consider that we collectors are holding two antithetical concepts in our brains at the same time: (1) Grading is subjective, and.....(2) It's possible to assign an uncirculated coin the "correct" grade from among 20 grades.
I think a prominent grader could establish a second sticker company assigning the "correct" number 0-9 past the decimal point to the TPG grade so we will have: PCGS MS66, green bean, 0.7 bean for a true grade of 66.7, and we would all go along with that.
It helps to understsnd if one is able to think of grades and stickers not as objective scientific measurements of technical quality, but instead as the then-current expert opinions of the relative ranking of market value of that particular coin, versus the then-known (to the opinion provider) populations of similar coins.
Wow.. another CAC thread.... and once again, the same things are stated.... What we have here, is a debate about the opinion of opinions.... which, boils down to an opinion of an opiner's opinion.... There are no standards, so opinions of those who are perceived to be expert, are sought. Then a seal of approval is given and voila'.... value increases, sales are made and the economy rolls on.... Cheers, RickO
You can. All you have to do is provide the same service. What could be simpler? Nothing is preventing you from cashing in on this "easy job."
There is a problem. No one views me as "the greatest grader in the world ... perhaps the greatest grader in the history of numismatics." That is a hard standard for any human to meet, even JA.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Catbert said: "Then no longer will we have SO MUCH POWER PLACED IN ONE PERSON!"
Do we actually know that JA looks at everything before it goes out? I would if it were my company but what a work load if true.
@BAJJERFAN asked: "If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?"
Depends on the coin and the future of the market; however, I should expect the grade to change at least three times (based on changes in the past). Now, if the grade was maxed out, it would be hard to change it unless the grader left one service and works at another.
That's OK, you make a valid point. I still would like someone to answer my question. I suppose I can call up there and ask. That's what I tell everyone else to do when they ask a question such as mine...LOL.
Typical Insider response: "Why don't you just call them with your question."
CAC stickering criteria has changed over the years, I was hoping they would be more consistent than that.
If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?
since that very thing is at the crux of why CAC exists, I would say yes.
CAC doesn't need to tighten up or loosen up to keep submissions up like the TPG's do. My personal experience with CAC has been a tightening of the Gold stickers lately in part due to market factors, not solely the fact the coin is undergraded by today's standards. We all bitched and moaned at first about CAC and then grudgingly accepted it as a necessary evil. Now with more rampant CAC market grading and the severe lack of copper competence i'm less inclined to give them the prior latitude.
@SoCalBigMark said:
CAC stickering criteria has changed over the years, I was hoping they would be more consistent than that.
If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?
Actually.......it SHOULD!!!!
Agree that it should, but when it doesn't then what? Does it mean that PCGS changed their standards or did the grader/s see it differently this time? If all PCGS graders see all the coins in a submission [and they all grade to the same standard] shouldn't each coin get the same grade from each grader? When "standards" tighten does PCGS drop each coin in their grading sets by a grade? What you and others ascribe as differing standards, I'd call differing of opinion/s.
PCGS tightened Morgan grading by 1.5 points 3-4 years ago and are currently relaxing them once again. And lately they have been grading 20 century Red copper at least 1 point higher.
CAC serves an important role for high end coins with a significant spread between grades.
I call BS for those that claim the market demands it for lower grade coins in the EF range. I seriously doubt that the initial intent was for the service to extend to coins which are just simply not in controversy... In term of the grade or the real market value. And I am not talking about a value created from the "keeping up with the Jones mentality" which seems to be the apparent end result at the lower financial end of the coin market.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's really just a negotiation tool. The coin is the coin. Someone will tell you it's not worth crap because i didn't sticker. BS. Same thing with "overgraded" coins. The coin is what it is.
When I have gone to coin shows, I have listened quietly to a lot of dealers about CAC. One of the consequences, intended by JA or not, is that CAC has made it more difficult for dealers of coins above $2000 or so in value to convince a buyer that their stickerless coin is PQ or under graded.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@SoCalBigMark said:
PCGS tightened Morgan grading by 1.5 points 3-4 years ago and are currently relaxing them once again. And lately they have been grading 20 century Red copper at least 1 point higher.
Is this following the value of the coins per market grading?
In an ideal grading system, the grade of a coin will not change over time as long as nothing has changed on the coin. The old technical system was very close to this as all the wiggle room was gone - no decisions to make, see friction wear on the high point = AU. "Stacking rub" is not friction wear - it is compression; however "cabinet FRICTION" is wear.
A computer image will ensure that coins stay the same no matter market conditions or any attempt to loosen the system.
Do you all really want consistency? IMO, it would not be good for the coin market.
@breakdown said:
When I have gone to coin shows, I have listened quietly to a lot of dealers about CAC. One of the consequences, intended by JA or not, is that CAC has made it more difficult for dealers of coins above $2000 or so in value to convince a buyer that their stickerless coin is PQ or under graded.
Ah, but having, "Too bad your coin isn't stickered. That cuts the value waaaay down." in the buying repertoire on the streets of America should compensate.
On and on it goes
Where it will stop
Nobody knows................
It will never stop as long as there is money to be made by creating illusions for the gullible.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
CAC stickering criteria has changed over the years, I was hoping they would be more consistent than that.
Hey good luck with the self bam. Well you can thank me later. Heh
@Justacommeman said: "I'm assuming that most would agree the TPG's grading standards have shifted over the years. Tight periods and loose periods. I take solace that JA's standards have remained constant [over] the years."
I only know a little about the industry, enough to agree that grading standards have become looser over the years and there have been many periods of swings in either direction. While I can understand that each of us can decide if we would buy a coin at a certain grade - that includes JA - I don't understand how his grading standards have not "evolved" (the TPGS words) or been "fine tuned" (your words) along with the market swings.
PS This does not apply to CAC as AFAIK they have a grading team. It is something I thought of just now and I'll use it as my epitaph"
I
INSIDER 2
1940 - 2025
If I were the only grader at my grading service the grades would always be right.
I agree regarding the grading services. Forget about the rattler/ogh changes and even the older blue holders - the standards have changed from 3-4 years ago IMHO.
This is tame. We could always bring Mr. McKnowItAll in.
Maybe all this obsession over CAC angers some people. I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't anger me. It is driving me out of my ever loving gord however. STOP!!!!! PLEASE!!!!! For God's sake....GIVE IT A REST!!!!
Yeah but, cac brings more money. Haha
I think CAC's emergence is a very understandable when you consider that we collectors are holding two antithetical concepts in our brains at the same time: (1) Grading is subjective, and.....(2) It's possible to assign an uncirculated coin the "correct" grade from among 20 grades.
I think a prominent grader could establish a second sticker company assigning the "correct" number 0-9 past the decimal point to the TPG grade so we will have: PCGS MS66, green bean, 0.7 bean for a true grade of 66.7, and we would all go along with that.
Commems and Early Type
It helps to understsnd if one is able to think of grades and stickers not as objective scientific measurements of technical quality, but instead as the then-current expert opinions of the relative ranking of market value of that particular coin, versus the then-known (to the opinion provider) populations of similar coins.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Wow.. another CAC thread.... and once again, the same things are stated.... What we have here, is a debate about the opinion of opinions.... which, boils down to an opinion of an opiner's opinion....
There are no standards, so opinions of those who are perceived to be expert, are sought. Then a seal of approval is given and voila'.... value increases, sales are made and the economy rolls on.... Cheers, RickO
so what happens when Mr. Albanese leaves this mortal plane?
There is a problem. No one views me as "the greatest grader in the world ... perhaps the greatest grader in the history of numismatics." That is a hard standard for any human to meet, even JA.
Good question for Ray Kurzweil!
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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Its easy to call somebody the best grader in the world if you share their taste. If not well....
If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?
Then no longer will we have SO MUCH POWER PLACED IN ONE PERSON!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Catbert said: "Then no longer will we have SO MUCH POWER PLACED IN ONE PERSON!"
Do we actually know that JA looks at everything before it goes out? I would if it were my company but what a work load if true.
@BAJJERFAN asked: "If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?"
Depends on the coin and the future of the market; however, I should expect the grade to change at least three times (based on changes in the past). Now, if the grade was maxed out, it would be hard to change it unless the grader left one service and works at another.
@Insider2 I was teasing @BillJones
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Catbert said: "I was teasing."
That's OK, you make a valid point. I still would like someone to answer my question. I suppose I can call up there and ask. That's what I tell everyone else to do when they ask a question such as mine...LOL.
Typical Insider response: "Why don't you just call them with your question."
CAC stickering criteria has changed over the years, I was hoping they would be more consistent than that.
If you sent the same coin to the same grader once a year for 20 years would you expect it to come back the same grade all 20 times?
since that very thing is at the crux of why CAC exists, I would say yes.
Actually.......it SHOULD!!!!
CAC doesn't need to tighten up or loosen up to keep submissions up like the TPG's do. My personal experience with CAC has been a tightening of the Gold stickers lately in part due to market factors, not solely the fact the coin is undergraded by today's standards. We all bitched and moaned at first about CAC and then grudgingly accepted it as a necessary evil. Now with more rampant CAC market grading and the severe lack of copper competence i'm less inclined to give them the prior latitude.
Agree that it should, but when it doesn't then what? Does it mean that PCGS changed their standards or did the grader/s see it differently this time? If all PCGS graders see all the coins in a submission [and they all grade to the same standard] shouldn't each coin get the same grade from each grader? When "standards" tighten does PCGS drop each coin in their grading sets by a grade? What you and others ascribe as differing standards, I'd call differing of opinion/s.
PCGS tightened Morgan grading by 1.5 points 3-4 years ago and are currently relaxing them once again. And lately they have been grading 20 century Red copper at least 1 point higher.
Agree that it should, but when...............................as differing standards, I'd call differing of opinion/s.
based on your original statement I only have one word.................................LAME. nice try, though.
CAC serves an important role for high end coins with a significant spread between grades.
I call BS for those that claim the market demands it for lower grade coins in the EF range. I seriously doubt that the initial intent was for the service to extend to coins which are just simply not in controversy... In term of the grade or the real market value. And I am not talking about a value created from the "keeping up with the Jones mentality" which seems to be the apparent end result at the lower financial end of the coin market.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's really just a negotiation tool. The coin is the coin. Someone will tell you it's not worth crap because i didn't sticker. BS. Same thing with "overgraded" coins. The coin is what it is.
If one opinion is good, why isn't two better?
It's not like either one of them is forcing you to agree.
I honestly don't get it.
When I have gone to coin shows, I have listened quietly to a lot of dealers about CAC. One of the consequences, intended by JA or not, is that CAC has made it more difficult for dealers of coins above $2000 or so in value to convince a buyer that their stickerless coin is PQ or under graded.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
"another CAC question"
On and on it goes
Where it will stop
Nobody knows................
Is this following the value of the coins per market grading?
In an ideal grading system, the grade of a coin will not change over time as long as nothing has changed on the coin. The old technical system was very close to this as all the wiggle room was gone - no decisions to make, see friction wear on the high point = AU. "Stacking rub" is not friction wear - it is compression; however "cabinet FRICTION" is wear.
A computer image will ensure that coins stay the same no matter market conditions or any attempt to loosen the system.
Do you all really want consistency? IMO, it would not be good for the coin market.
Yes, I sure do.
Ah, but having, "Too bad your coin isn't stickered. That cuts the value waaaay down." in the buying repertoire on the streets of America should compensate.
It will never stop as long as there is money to be made by creating illusions for the gullible.
oops double post.......
As I posted above: "In an ideal grading system, the grade of a coin will not change over time as long as nothing has changed on the coin."
and "... Do you all really want consistency? IMO, it would not be good for the coin market."
@DIMEMAN said: "Yes, I sure do."
That's fine, you and I agree that consistency is good; however, I questioned if consistency would be a good thing for the coin market?
What do members think?