@BillJones said:
I just $33,000 plus the buyers' fee and was out bid.
This coin might bring $100,000 if the two or more "usual suspects" are involved. You can't buy one of these coins. Not the low end, not the high end. The market is closed.
If you feel like playing chicken, and you are SURE they will outbid you....it might be fun to run them up, just to make yourself feel better.
No because I already felt that I was over paying already. I bid $31,000 and my wife said, "Why don't you try $33,000?" which I did knowing that it wouldn't work.
Mrs Bill sounds like quite the catch. Rock on Bill Jones. You got her you don't need no stupid coin
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The Legend realized prices show the hammer shortly after the auction but they will soon be amended to include the 17.5% buyers fee. As mentioned, the estimates are hammer prices, and yes, they are often low (but not always!)
@roadrunner said:
I went back to a previous Regency Auction and they did not have the BF's added in. It was all hammer pricing.
Some take awhile. This is where the 17.5% buyers fee helps math wise. Crooked numbers are the tell hammer vs price realized wise
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@roadrunner said:
All of the estimates are hammer prices. And so are the final prices realized. In any case, a hammer estimate of $12K-$14K was woefully low. Though it could be stated that the house got an amazing price of 3X the estimate for their consignor. The last 2 PCGS PF 66's auctioned were at $22K and $32K. So I'm not sure why $12K-$14K was the estimate.
The low ball estimates are a game Superior used to play in the early 1980s. They are designed to make more bidders think they can pick up a bargain and therefore encourage more bidder participation.
When Superior did it, was it selectively done per coin or across all coins?
A number of the EX 1994 collection coins in this auction didn't hit the low end of the estimate, hammerwise, but did hit it if the juice was included.
The few pages I just scrolled through the majority of coins were within 10% of hammer estimate range or in the range. A few were outliers and they get the headlines
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sooooo, the same bidder (8223) bought both the 1877 PR66CAC and the 1878 PR67CAM. Two cream of the crop bookcase coins. Time to watch for a new Registry posting.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
Sooooo, the same bidder (8223) bought both the 1877 PR66CAC and the 1878 PR67CAM. Two cream of the crop bookcase coins. Time to watch for a new Registry posting.
OINK
That does not surprise me. I thought before I bid that the same guy would buy both coins since they are high grade and are near matches.
I hope I can find a PR-64 with reasonablely original surfaces, for sure something a good deal less than $20,000. This PR-66, which the experts think is headed for a PR-67 holder, brought about $40,000 with me as underbidder. Is a PR-63 or 64 worth $20,000? I think not.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I don't think there are many here who do not share your frustration. We may bust your chops on the math and market perturbations, but I'd like to think a lot of Forumites besides myself will keeping an eye out for a '77 20c on the bourse floor at Denver.
Ms. @BillJones is surely Coin Spouse registry quality.
Curmudgeon badge being designed by Mark Stephenson using HRH's personal crayons.
Hope you're out and about soon
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Justacommeman said:
The few pages I just scrolled through the majority of coins were within 10% of hammer estimate range or in the range. A few were outliers and they get the headlines
mark
It just goes to prove, every time I bid on something, the price goes bananas. If I don't bid it, sells at a more reasonable level. This has been happening for months.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Justacommeman said:
The few pages I just scrolled through the majority of coins were within 10% of hammer estimate range or in the range. A few were outliers and they get the headlines
mark
It just goes to prove, every time I bid on something, the price goes bananas. If I don't bid it, sells at a more reasonable level. This has been happening for months.
I doubt it makes you feel any better but you are far alone. I have some open to buy and It's been hard to spend.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones I think you should start a quest for a complete early commem set in dull white 64 to get those dogs out of the 30 year basement that they have been in.
Better yet, why don't I send you a list of the coins in my collection so you can replicate it and I can reap the rewards....all then to be sold through an imaginary auction house that has no buyers free and pays you to consign to them.
i wish that I had one and I'd sell it to you at whatever YOU thought was fair.
I'm rooting for you to find one that fits the bill and that you have enough left over to take Mrs. Jones out on the town.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
Heritage makes of big deal of sending successful bidders certificates that entitle you submit that item to them to be auctioned. The certificate entitles you to receive 100% of the hammer price. The implication is they are normally collecting the buyers’ fee AND a commission from the consignors. If that’s true it makes the 20% and rising buyers’ fee even more onerous.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Boosibri said: @BillJones I think you should start a quest for a complete early commem set in dull white 64 to get those dogs out of the 30 year basement that they have been in.
Better yet, why don't I send you a list of the coins in my collection so you can replicate it and I can reap the rewards....all then to be sold through an imaginary auction house that has no buyers free and pays you to consign to them.
I don't understand the hostility here.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Heritage makes of big deal of sending successful bidders certificates that entitle you submit that item to them to be auctioned. The certificate entitles you to receive 100% of the hammer price. The implication is they are normally collecting the buyers’ fee AND a commission from the consignors. If that’s true it makes the 20% and rising buyers’ fee even more onerous.
I assumed just the opposite back around 10-13 years ago when they routinely sent me those certificates. If getting 100% hammer was that "easy"....then there must be more of the net auction fees to be negotiated.
I was looking around major retailer web sites including Ebay and could not find a single Proof 1877 20c piece being offered. In fact, considering how big most of these dealers are, I was surprised that none of them had more than a single choice/gem 20c piece of any date, even in MS.
I was surprised that none of them had more than a single choice/gem 20c piece of any date, even in MS.
And it's more than likely all of the higher grade examples you saw were 1875-S pieces, with a maybe an 1875-CC thrown in now and then. The 1875-CC is plagued with strike issues, however, so that one is tougher than some people might think.
It took me a surprisingly long time to find the 1875-P in MS and PR-64. Other than the 1875 Carson City and San Francisco coins, the rest is the set is tougher than the two common dates. Add to that a couple of people who are buying up every 1877 that comes on market, regards of the price or quality of the grading, and you are not going to find much of anything for sale.
The 1877 will be a dead issue for a while until those people come to their senses. If they never come to their senses then it will be a permanent hole in my collection like the 1876-CC. In one sense it makes me sorry I sold the piece I had, but that coin had issues and the price offered, which was full retail, seemed too good to pass up at the time for what was a piece with mint caused problems..
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was thinking the same thing. Bill has got me sold on this coin and I have only owned a couple double dimes in my lifetime in low circulated grades
Good luck on your quest. If it is any consolation, maybe this will drive up the price of all the other 20 cent pieces in your collection and you will end up better in the end.
I was thinking the same thing. Bill has got me sold on this coin and I have only owned a couple double dimes in my lifetime in low circulated grades
Good luck on your quest. If it is any consolation, maybe this will drive up the price of all the other 20 cent pieces in your collection and you will end up better in the end.
It might drive up the value of the other coins in my 20 cent collection, but it won't last. Prices tend to fall after the promotion is over. I'm not sure if the same people are playing with the 1878 Twenty Cent Piece which is also a Proof only date. It's not as scarce as the 1877, but it's not a push over either.
I got an offer on the 1878 I have too, and I turned that down flat and took off the "for sale by owner" label. That one is a really nice PR-64, and I have no intention of selling it at this time,
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bill, frustration aside I think you take yourself a little too seriously and powerful, as though your mere prescence in a market causes prices to escalate. the last time I heard such BS was from K6AZ about 10 years ago, he suggested that when he was on the bourse floor a "crowd" of collectors would follow him around!!!!
I think what is happening, really, is that you are an astute collector who maybe subconsciously chooses to chase what others are also after. as a few members have suggested, the better choice would probably be a non-auction purchase. in that regard I believe you do have power --- you are a veteran dealer with enough knowledge and connections that should help you "fly under the radar" and locate a suitable coin. if it were me, there are three members in this thread that I'd PM and meet at shows to quietly locate the right coin. you certainly have the means, enough cash and plenty of time.
our little home here, the PCGS US Coin Forum, probably has more lurkers than active members who post. I hope this thread hasn't resulted in an increase in price for you. sometimes being quiet about a search is a good thing, albeit very difficult to maintain.
best of luck, and by all means when you buy the right coin please post pictures.
I agree with everything you wrote, @Keets, except the part that, my "mere presence in a market causes prices to escalate." I always posted that as a joke. No one knows who is bidding in these large auctions (At least I hope so.). Therefore the fact that I bid on something has nothing to do with the escalation of prices. Perhaps it does have something to do with the fact that I tend to think and buy like a collector.
As for your suggestion that I purchase coins via "private treaty," I'd love to do that, but the material that is offered in the current market is very disappointing. At the last Winter FUN and Winter ANA shows, I went to those venues thinking that I would be able to finish or come close to finishing my Classic $2.50 and $5.00 gold sets.
I was severely disappointed by what I was able to find. At the ANA show I saw five examples of the 1839-C $2.50 coin in “AU-58 to MS-62.” All of them, graded by NGC, had been shined up to a bright gold color, like little brass buttons. I could not understand how any of those coins had avoided a “details holder” (problem coin holder) let alone a straight grade that would have placed them among the better pieces available. All of the PCGS graded coins were EF pieces which fell below my grade goals. I finally ended up buying an 1838 $5 gold that was in an NGC AU-58 CAC holder that was a marginal coin. One of my dealer buddies told it was over graded. (BTW I did buy an 1838-C $2.50 in a major auction later in the year.)
The sad fact is the bourse show offerings have dried up for whatever reason. I’d love to avoid the auctions, but today that’s not an option if you want to fill the holes with credible coins. I have sent my want list to some dealers (Not too many because that creates its own issues.), but the response has been disappointing.
Part of the problem is grade-flation. I’ll see a coin advertised as anything from AU-55 to MS-63, and think, “Oh boy, my ship has come in!” Then I see the coin. In some cases it’s the double whammy – over graded and overpriced in the holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I sort of thought your remark was tongue-in-cheek. FWIW, I am "in the hunt" for a few coins/medals right now that are proving elusive so I understand the feeling. this is the stash the cash phase of collecting so that when something appears I can pounce. at least it's happening at a good time of year. winter tends to be better for auctions though a couple auctions I depend on right now have disappointed, the November Stack's/Bowers and the FUN Show, neither had/has items I was willing to stretch for.
also, winter is inventory time for me and when I decide what needs to go.
A good thread to bring back up. I'm nowhere near Bill's level on the coins but I have noticed that attractive, properly graded eye-appealing coins usually have no trouble getting sold for a decent price (or beyond). I quietly track pieces I need (or want) for my registry and almost always meet up with some furious bidders at the other end, if it's in an auction. I'm talking classic coins in decent VF or XF condition, no monsters or old cameo proofs.
Comments
Mrs Bill sounds like quite the catch. Rock on Bill Jones. You got her you don't need no stupid coin
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The Legend realized prices show the hammer shortly after the auction but they will soon be amended to include the 17.5% buyers fee. As mentioned, the estimates are hammer prices, and yes, they are often low (but not always!)
I went back to a previous Regency Auction and they did not have the BF's added in. It was all hammer pricing.
Some take awhile. This is where the 17.5% buyers fee helps math wise. Crooked numbers are the tell hammer vs price realized wise
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When Superior did it, was it selectively done per coin or across all coins?
A number of the EX 1994 collection coins in this auction didn't hit the low end of the estimate, hammerwise, but did hit it if the juice was included.
The few pages I just scrolled through the majority of coins were within 10% of hammer estimate range or in the range. A few were outliers and they get the headlines
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sooooo, the same bidder (8223) bought both the 1877 PR66CAC and the 1878 PR67CAM. Two cream of the crop bookcase coins. Time to watch for a new Registry posting.
OINK
That does not surprise me. I thought before I bid that the same guy would buy both coins since they are high grade and are near matches.
I hope I can find a PR-64 with reasonablely original surfaces, for sure something a good deal less than $20,000. This PR-66, which the experts think is headed for a PR-67 holder, brought about $40,000 with me as underbidder. Is a PR-63 or 64 worth $20,000? I think not.
I don't think there are many here who do not share your frustration. We may bust your chops on the math and market perturbations, but I'd like to think a lot of Forumites besides myself will keeping an eye out for a '77 20c on the bourse floor at Denver.
Ms. @BillJones is surely Coin Spouse registry quality.
Curmudgeon badge being designed by Mark Stephenson using HRH's personal crayons.
Hope you're out and about soon
It just goes to prove, every time I bid on something, the price goes bananas. If I don't bid it, sells at a more reasonable level. This has been happening for months.
All that proves is that you have excellent taste, shared by some and emulated by label readers.
I doubt it makes you feel any better but you are far alone. I have some open to buy and It's been hard to spend.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones I think you should start a quest for a complete early commem set in dull white 64 to get those dogs out of the 30 year basement that they have been in.
Better yet, why don't I send you a list of the coins in my collection so you can replicate it and I can reap the rewards....all then to be sold through an imaginary auction house that has no buyers free and pays you to consign to them.
Latin American Collection
i wish that I had one and I'd sell it to you at whatever YOU thought was fair.
I'm rooting for you to find one that fits the bill and that you have enough left over to take Mrs. Jones out on the town.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Heritage makes of big deal of sending successful bidders certificates that entitle you submit that item to them to be auctioned. The certificate entitles you to receive 100% of the hammer price. The implication is they are normally collecting the buyers’ fee AND a commission from the consignors. If that’s true it makes the 20% and rising buyers’ fee even more onerous.
I don't understand the hostility here.
Bill, wasn't trying to be hostile, just joking with you!
You yourself joked that everything you tried to but shot up in price. Bad joke I guess...
Latin American Collection
I assumed just the opposite back around 10-13 years ago when they routinely sent me those certificates. If getting 100% hammer was that "easy"....then there must be more of the net auction fees to be negotiated.
I was looking around major retailer web sites including Ebay and could not find a single Proof 1877 20c piece being offered. In fact, considering how big most of these dealers are, I was surprised that none of them had more than a single choice/gem 20c piece of any date, even in MS.
And it's more than likely all of the higher grade examples you saw were 1875-S pieces, with a maybe an 1875-CC thrown in now and then. The 1875-CC is plagued with strike issues, however, so that one is tougher than some people might think.
It took me a surprisingly long time to find the 1875-P in MS and PR-64. Other than the 1875 Carson City and San Francisco coins, the rest is the set is tougher than the two common dates. Add to that a couple of people who are buying up every 1877 that comes on market, regards of the price or quality of the grading, and you are not going to find much of anything for sale.
The 1877 will be a dead issue for a while until those people come to their senses. If they never come to their senses then it will be a permanent hole in my collection like the 1876-CC. In one sense it makes me sorry I sold the piece I had, but that coin had issues and the price offered, which was full retail, seemed too good to pass up at the time for what was a piece with mint caused problems..
I want one now
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was thinking the same thing. Bill has got me sold on this coin and I have only owned a couple double dimes in my lifetime in low circulated grades
Good luck on your quest. If it is any consolation, maybe this will drive up the price of all the other 20 cent pieces in your collection and you will end up better in the end.
It might drive up the value of the other coins in my 20 cent collection, but it won't last. Prices tend to fall after the promotion is over. I'm not sure if the same people are playing with the 1878 Twenty Cent Piece which is also a Proof only date. It's not as scarce as the 1877, but it's not a push over either.
I got an offer on the 1878 I have too, and I turned that down flat and took off the "for sale by owner" label. That one is a really nice PR-64, and I have no intention of selling it at this time,
Actually it was Ford who started the low ball estimate game but thats another story
Bill, frustration aside I think you take yourself a little too seriously and powerful, as though your mere prescence in a market causes prices to escalate. the last time I heard such BS was from K6AZ about 10 years ago, he suggested that when he was on the bourse floor a "crowd" of collectors would follow him around!!!!
I think what is happening, really, is that you are an astute collector who maybe subconsciously chooses to chase what others are also after. as a few members have suggested, the better choice would probably be a non-auction purchase. in that regard I believe you do have power --- you are a veteran dealer with enough knowledge and connections that should help you "fly under the radar" and locate a suitable coin. if it were me, there are three members in this thread that I'd PM and meet at shows to quietly locate the right coin. you certainly have the means, enough cash and plenty of time.
our little home here, the PCGS US Coin Forum, probably has more lurkers than active members who post. I hope this thread hasn't resulted in an increase in price for you. sometimes being quiet about a search is a good thing, albeit very difficult to maintain.
best of luck, and by all means when you buy the right coin please post pictures.
I agree with everything you wrote, @Keets, except the part that, my "mere presence in a market causes prices to escalate." I always posted that as a joke. No one knows who is bidding in these large auctions (At least I hope so.). Therefore the fact that I bid on something has nothing to do with the escalation of prices. Perhaps it does have something to do with the fact that I tend to think and buy like a collector.
As for your suggestion that I purchase coins via "private treaty," I'd love to do that, but the material that is offered in the current market is very disappointing. At the last Winter FUN and Winter ANA shows, I went to those venues thinking that I would be able to finish or come close to finishing my Classic $2.50 and $5.00 gold sets.
I was severely disappointed by what I was able to find. At the ANA show I saw five examples of the 1839-C $2.50 coin in “AU-58 to MS-62.” All of them, graded by NGC, had been shined up to a bright gold color, like little brass buttons. I could not understand how any of those coins had avoided a “details holder” (problem coin holder) let alone a straight grade that would have placed them among the better pieces available. All of the PCGS graded coins were EF pieces which fell below my grade goals. I finally ended up buying an 1838 $5 gold that was in an NGC AU-58 CAC holder that was a marginal coin. One of my dealer buddies told it was over graded. (BTW I did buy an 1838-C $2.50 in a major auction later in the year.)
The sad fact is the bourse show offerings have dried up for whatever reason. I’d love to avoid the auctions, but today that’s not an option if you want to fill the holes with credible coins. I have sent my want list to some dealers (Not too many because that creates its own issues.), but the response has been disappointing.
Part of the problem is grade-flation. I’ll see a coin advertised as anything from AU-55 to MS-63, and think, “Oh boy, my ship has come in!” Then I see the coin. In some cases it’s the double whammy – over graded and overpriced in the holder.
I sort of thought your remark was tongue-in-cheek.
FWIW, I am "in the hunt" for a few coins/medals right now that are proving elusive so I understand the feeling. this is the stash the cash phase of collecting so that when something appears I can pounce. at least it's happening at a good time of year. winter tends to be better for auctions though a couple auctions I depend on right now have disappointed, the November Stack's/Bowers and the FUN Show, neither had/has items I was willing to stretch for.
also, winter is inventory time for me and when I decide what needs to go.
A good thread to bring back up. I'm nowhere near Bill's level on the coins but I have noticed that attractive, properly graded eye-appealing coins usually have no trouble getting sold for a decent price (or beyond). I quietly track pieces I need (or want) for my registry and almost always meet up with some furious bidders at the other end, if it's in an auction. I'm talking classic coins in decent VF or XF condition, no monsters or old cameo proofs.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets