What is happening to the prices for the 1877 Proof Twenty Cent Piece?
BillJones
Posts: 33,485 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is the last coin I need to finish the “collectable set.” If you collect them all, the super rare ones at the 1876-CC and the 1875-S which said to have been made in Proof or Specimen.
I had an 1877 in PCGS PR-64, but it had three laminations on the obverse. One collector joked that one of them looked like rising sun in back of Ms. Liberty when I posted pictures of the coins years ago.
The coin had the “make an offer to the owner” label on it on the Heritage site, and someone offered me $7,650 for it which I accepted that in 2011 because I thought that price was “crazy high.” The coin was marginal for me because of the esthetic issues created by the laminations. I thought that I would be able to replace the piece with something more pleasing at a later date.
Following that sale auction prices for the coin continued to run under the $7,650 selling price I had realized for an PR-64. From 2013 to 2016 they have ranged in PR-63 from $4,994 to $6,169 and in PR-64 from $6,169 to $7,639 which was actually in 2012. The “Coin Facts” numbers are $5,250 for PR-63 and $7,500 for PR-64.
Then in the most recent auctions, the prices have gone nuts. In the recent June Heritage sale, a PCGS PR-63 sold for $14,100 and an NGC PR-63, Cam brought $19,975 against a “Coin Facts” catalog number of $6,000. Neither of these coins were outstanding for the grade. Neither of these coins had CAC stickers. The NGC PR-63, Cam had been dipped, and it had obvious surface issues in the obverse photo.
The in the recent Stacks’ – Bowers sale in Baltimore an NGC PR-63 brought $21,150. My take on this coin was that it had been dipped and had retoned with some bright, garish blue toning. It did nothing for me, and I was not interested.
What is going on? Has there been a sudden influx of Twenty Cent Piece collectors who are willing to pay three times as much for mediocre coins? How many of them are there? Usually a collector is satisfied once he or she acquires and example of a coin on a want list. Or do we have another couple of people who are looking to corner market as we saw with the guy who bought up most of all of the available 1909-VDB cents in Matte Proof?
I know you might not believe this, but it really won’t take that much money for a wealthy individual to pull this off. If you were willing to commit $500,000 to $750,000, you could control the auction market for these coins.
I don’t understand what is going on in this market. It is supposed to be a “down market” with bargain prices, yet everything on my list goes crazy every time I touch it. It is certainly discouraging, and it’s one of the reasons why I am getting to the end of my rope with the U.S. coin market.
Comments
very strange indeed.
I expected you to say that the prices had dropped.
BHNC #203
Why buy in auction?
Somebody needs to find you a 77 20 center! You are really agonizing over finding another!
Who has one for sale? I would buy a decent one in short order from somewhat stupid money, but not crazy stupid money. I won't pay three times catalog and previous auction prices so that leaves me out.
I've scanned the dealers on a regular basis using the PCGS registry search engine. U.S. Coins had one, but it was sold before I get to them. It seems like a few people are buying up every example that they can get.
There is one at the large shows that has been dipped with huge scratch in the right obverse field. That didn't stop NGC from calling it "PR-63" On that A to C coin scale, that piece was a "D-" as for as I'm concerned.
I don't believe it's the market. IMO it's the wealthy investor, the person who wants something because they have the capital to get it.
If I were Bill, I just wouldn't purchase an 1877 Twenty Cents at this point. The buyer is surely going to pay up, but when it's time to sell it years later, will the "crazy-high demand" still be present? I have my doubts. This situation shows the classic signs of a market-cornering operation in progress.
So.... for every Jackie Robinson Commem falling off the cliff an obscure proof 20c piece rises meteorically.
Latin American Collection
Yes, I agree with you. The trouble is when you reach a certain age, the time to wait grows short. As now I've more or less given up on getting the coin. I'll monitor what is available and place bids, but the hope of getting anything decent is slight. It will be interesting to see if the imparied examples bring stupid money. I saw a "details" grade piece pop up in a future auction. If they do, this buyer is clearly got more money than brains.
Another point to add is that the 1877 proof Twenty Cents is not even a rare issue as far as proof Seated material goes. There are 354 grading events in the PCGS population report, including 96 in the PR63 categories (including + and CAM designations). Yes, it is a proof-only issue that is needed to complete a date set, but it just isn't rare, and there are not that many people trying to collect a date set of Twenty Cents coins. Why the huge amount of money?
Maybe this quote from Ron Guth on the "Coin Facts" page got them started:
http://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/32715126/20c-1877-pcgs-pr66-cac-ex-1994-collection/?q=1877&ref=catalog
Yes, I've seen that wonderful coin, TDN and have drooled over it for a few weeks. I have registered to bid on it. If events work as they have in recent auctions, get ready to sell it for an all-time record high price. Lucky you!
@ricko has surely got better work laying around the kitchen sink, but this one sure fooled me
Strange indeed.
It will be interesting to see where this ends up.
Here's the TrueView:
PCGS PR66 CAC 84015929
I started collecting double dimes about a year ago, I don't have a 77 yet, but I did ask a few clients to pick one up for me if they come across one. I guess we'll see.
If that gorgeous PR66 sells for less than the $21,150 realized for the so-so NGC PF63 in Baltimore, something strange is going on indeed.
But it won't.
Based on current market trends, the PR66 example should sell for more than the Dexter 1804 dollar. Well, with a little bit of extrapolation maybe?
It's over the high estimate now at $14,500.
Sorry to disagree, but the last three coins sold for way over (four times) the "Coin Facts" quotes and previous auction results. None of these coins were the type of pieces that would have "filled the last hole in a high graded set." They were only PR-63s and two of them were in NGC holders, with no CAC stickers, which looked at best mediocre. Here were the results.
PCGS PR-63, no cameo, no CAC. Heritage told me that this was an attractive coin for the grade, but the “Coin Facts” quote was $5,250, the previous high auction result was $6,169 and it sold for $14,100
NGC PR-63, Cameo, no CAC. “Coin Facts” price $6,000, previous high auction price for an NGC coin $7,475 in 2006, PCGS high $12,925 recently by Kagins which seemed high. It sold for $19,975. The coin was dipped with many surface marks, many around the date.
NGC PR-63, Stacks just sold in in Baltimore for $21.150 at the last Baltimore show.
Something is going here, and it makes no sense. Why pay four times the previous auction results for coins that are nowhere near the finest graded?
I also don't care about the cameo. I'd just to get a decent coin (PR-63 or 64) to finish the set.
BUT this situation looks really bad. Normally a collector might pay a really high price to finish a set, but most collectors are happy after they fill the hole. Hoarders and those are looking to corner a market have an endless desire to buy every coin in sight. The “smart ones” know better than to show their hand like the, at least two individuals, who are making the current “four times what it’s worth” auction market. Who knows? Maybe one of them bought the piece I had with the lamination marks on the obverse.
If these guys have all the money, and all it takes is several hundred thousand dollars, they will knock me out permanently because you simply can’t beat a “buy at any price” bidder without getting seriously hurt. The fact that this has happened three times in a row for less than great coins is very disturbing.
The most recent exmaple was the guy who bought up all of the 1909-VDB cents in Matte Proof that he could find. Those coins are essentially dead for collectors now that he owns so many of them.
The only people who win are the people who might have sold to him at high prices. He's going to have wait a long time to get all of his money back plus some net income becasue he dump the whole thing on the market at once, as he tried to do on eBay, when he offered them for $ 1 million.
The thing I can't understand about this is why the key date Twenty Cent Piece? It is a rather out of the way set. Most collectors only want one for type, and those collectors don't care what the date is. In fact they might even prefer an 1875 as the first year of issue. This bit of market hoarding does not look like a road to riches to me.
I think it will take 25k+ to buy his coin. It's awesome. Bill good luck. I hope you bag it!
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I just $33,000 plus the buyers' fee and was out bid.
This coin might bring $100,000 if the two or more "usual suspects" are involved. You can't buy one of these coins. Not the low end, not the high end. The market is closed.
Wow.
That is quite the coin
Sorry Bill. We need to find you one
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you feel like playing chicken, and you are SURE they will outbid you....it might be fun to run them up, just to make yourself feel better.
No because I already felt that I was over paying already. I bid $31,000 and my wife said, "Why don't you try $33,000?" which I did knowing that it wouldn't work. At any rate Legend won't let me bid more than $50,000 on one lot, and that's not enough.
If an NGC PR-63 (no CAC and I won't have given it one), is worth $21,500, this one must be worth $100,000, right? Who knows maybe it's worth a $1 million.
In the current market any number is possible. I just hope that the people who are doing this are paying their auction bills and are not running this up on credit.
The coin has been off the market since 1994, when grading was far different. It's almost certainly going to take PF67 level money to buy it ($40K-$45K). It may well be the finest known for the date despite a previous 67 CAM out there. In December 2013 L-M auction had a PF66 CAC fetch $32,200. Unfortunately, there is no record of that coin in their archives.
This coin will go for more than $45 k, because the fools with more money than brains will push to it to six figures if that is necessary.
Like I said, if the NGC PR-63 is worth $21,500, this is worth at least $100,000
I'd bracket the price at no more than $60,000. My best guess as to what it brings is in the $40K-$50K range. I'll leave the $60K up to cover an extra buyer's fee if bidders want to pay it. Legend had a couple of PCGS PF 66's go for $22K-$32K in the past couple of years. 2X those prices should be more than enough.
Why not just buy a 76-CC instead!
The last time I had shot at one of those the asking price was $550,0000. The 1877 will catch up with that before long if the cartel is able to corner the market. At least their asking prices will be that high. Everyone should know by now that the 1877 Proof Twenty Cent Piece is now the premier coin in set.
Years ago I saw an impaired proof 1877 in a Stacks auction and considered buying it for my double dime collection. I only collect circulated coins, and I figured the '77 had entered the channels of commerce at least once in its life.
Maybe I should have bid high!
Obscurum per obscurius
Popcorn
Usually pieces like that only sell for a little less than the unimpaired coins because the supply is so small.
I viewed the coins today. Way nicer than the great set that I put together years ago. The 1878 has gorgeous mirrors.
Coins are like cars. If we held on to the ones we owned in our youth they'd be worth far more than sticker.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Change for a quarter is getting expensive these days.
The 1877 PCGS PF66 CAC went for $34,000 hammer/bid......$39,950 with vig.
The 1878 PCGS PF67 no CAC went for $47,500 hammer/bid....$55,812 with vig.
At less than 2X the price of that NGC 63 CAM for around $20,000, this PCGS 66 CAC 1877 was a bargain.
jeeze louise. I hope these prices don't spill over to the 20c die varieties until I am done with my set.
Are the estimates for before or after the juice?
Those aren't estimates. Those are the final bids with the 17.5% BF added in. The pre-auction bid/hammer estimate for the 1877 was $12K-$14K.
I know the $34k and $47.5k hammer are not estimates. I was wondering if the Legend $12-14k estimate was for the hammer only or includes the juice.
It's interesting that the Legend price realized doesn't include the juice but the HA price realized does include the juice.
All of the estimates are hammer prices. And so are the final prices realized. In any case, a hammer estimate of $12K-$14K was woefully low. Though it could be stated that the house got an amazing price of 3X the estimate for their consignor. The last 2 PCGS PF 66's auctioned were at $22K and $32K. So I'm not sure why $12K-$14K was the estimate.
The low ball estimates are a game Superior used to play in the early 1980s. They are designed to make more bidders think they can pick up a bargain and therefore encourage more bidder participation.