TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
If published/nominal Buyer's Fees really had a major outcome in what "most" or "typical" consignors realized then Great Collections with their lower 10% fee should be cleaning up against the big boyz who list at 17.5%. In reviewing GC's net prices realized for the past 1-1/2 yrs in type coins, silver dollars, and choice/gem gold, I don't see GC getting an additional 6.8% more for their coins (117.5/110). And I don't see buyers paying 6.4% less either (110/117.5).
@roadrunner said:
This is good news. Now I can finally calculate a buyer's fee in my head again....it's been nearly 15 years since the last time I could do it (1.10 BF) . So rather than dividing your bids by 1.175, now it's 1.20. Consignors have to realize to negotiate down for this additional 2.5%. Hammer +8% (90% net) will become the new normal. Gradeflation is met with bidflation.
Sellers will indeed fund most of increase, as bidders adjust their bid prices lower
Don't know their business model, but 20 % is stretching the band
Count your lucky stars in North America...There are some European auction houses charging up to 30% BF. some British auctioneers are world champions in charging fees in many ways.
I know that often SF is waived for a lot or reduced to a few points.
Plus in the EU there are taxes on the actual sellers fees regardless of where you live, in or outside the EU. That is a taxable service there and it was provided within the country.
you do not have to bid if you do not agree with the terms. simply, I won't.
@neildrobertson said:
GreatCollections.com is starting to look better now. The higher these fees go, the more they're opening things up to competition.
Explain why they haven't already been killing the competition for years for coins valued over $1,000 with their 7.5% buyer's fee advantage? (and 0% seller's fee). Why isn't every informed and knowledgeable collector now only consigning with GC? I've never consigned to GC so I have no idea how negotiable they are with their posted rates.
I don't understand why bother with the fee. I only pay what I want to pay. It doesn't mater what percentage of the bp. I am more concerned about the services they provide such as how fast they ship etc. it seems to me ha pretty slow in shipping.
Forget the calculations. It's certainly easier to mentally figure 20% than 17.5%.
It's also easier to write a check for "One hundred thousand dollars" instead "ninty two thousand four and fifty-seven dollars," but most of us would prefer to pay the lower amount.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Seems like this growing trend of auction houses increasing the fee on the buyer's side, and decreasing/eliminating the fee on the seller's side (even sometimes paying them a part of the hammer) is a wash as far as the auction house cut goes, as TDN said.
I'd suspect that the low/no seller's fee would attract more than it's share of higher end collections. Judging by HA's material, I'd say it is working pretty well.
@Pokermandude said:
Seems like this growing trend of auction houses increasing the fee on the buyer's side, and decreasing/eliminating the fee on the seller's side (even sometimes paying them a part of the hammer) is a wash as far as the auction house cut goes, as TDN said.
I'd suspect that the low/no seller's fee would attract more than it's share of higher end collections. Judging by HA's material, I'd say it is working pretty well.
I agree reducing the sellers fee is a good way to get inventory.
@neildrobertson said:
GreatCollections.com is starting to look better now. The higher these fees go, the more they're opening things up to competition.
Explain why they haven't already been killing the competition for years for coins valued over $1,000 with their 7.5% buyer's fee advantage? (and 0% seller's fee). Why isn't every informed and knowledgeable collector now only consigning with GC? I've never consigned to GC so I have no idea how negotiable they are with their posted rates.
They need to do more marketing. Most dealers and collectors I know don't even know who they are. I showed one of my main dealers who have owned a B&M for 30 years the site and got him hooked. I use to keep the site to myself to keep competition down, but they do such a good job with everything (pictures, fees shipping, listings etc) I tell anyone I can at this point. @ianrussell - FYI. PM me and I'll give you a few tips on where to make a few free posts to spread the word.
I don't also believe that SB is upping their fees to lose money....
The article said they were increasing it until after the ANA sale.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
What extra services will be delivered for the extra charges? What improvements have there been since the last percentage increases? I remember how popular Superior was with Steve Deeds. You wonder what effect this will have on the hobby.
One of the major problems with private sales is that Greysheet and other public records do not reflect them; which could be corrected if it were made simple and straight forward, so that the auction results were not paramount in valuing numismatics.
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
This. How is this even debatable?
You got me.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So you are ok paying the 17.5 to 20 percent plus the dealers markup BUT you are not ok with only paying the 17.5 to 20 % directly to the auction house. Got it. Carry on.
mark
Depends on the coin. I picked up a coin that a dealer had in inventory for over six months who wanted to move it. I know for a fact that I paid 5% over dealer cost. It was a nice collector coin which was not registry set material.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
This. How is this even debatable?
Lots of people don't understand math and don't listen to logic. Firms exploit this, and the rest of us just have to deal with the noise and inconvenience.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
buy a coin for a dollar ,kick in another 20 cents....... buy a coin for a millon,kick in another 200 grand....simple math....excuse me while I adjust my shirt to accomodate the heart attack
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
This. How is this even debatable?
Lots of people don't understand math and don't listen to logic. Firms exploit this, and the rest of us just have to deal with the noise and inconvenience.
What appears to be perfect logic in theory does not always work out to be a valid hypothesis in real life. Sure, most bidders figure in the buyers’ fee when they calculate their bids, but there are always a few who don’t. The bottom line is, raising the buyers’ fees, within limits, raises the overall cost to successful auction bidders. It doesn’t cost you more for every item you buy, but denying the fact that it raises prices in some cases is dilutional.
And yes, if the auction houses were to raise the buyer’s fees to 100%, they would drive themselves out of the business. One would hope at that level that other, more agile sellers would get in the market, and shove a sword in the bellies of the big auction house dinosaurs.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Funny how most folks are looking at this only from the perspective of a buyer. I'd say it affects consignors to a much greater degree. At the very least, consignment negotiations now start in a different place.
Forget the calculations. It's certainly easier to mentally figure 20% than 17.5%.
It's also easier to write a check for "One hundred thousand dollars" instead "ninty two thousand four and fifty-seven dollars," but most of us would prefer to pay the lower amount.
Moot point. With Heritage shipping fees, it will round up to $100,000 anyway.
@BryceM said:
Funny how most folks are looking at this only from the perspective of a buyer. I'd say it affects consignors to a much greater degree. At the very least, consignment negotiations now start in a different place.
Would be helpful if the consignee's published a sliding fee based on volume, rather than forcing an elderly consignor or estate executor into a crap shoot on selling fees.
So you are ok paying the 17.5 to 20 percent plus the dealers markup BUT you are not ok with only paying the 17.5 to 20 % directly to the auction house. Got it. Carry on.
mark
Depends on the coin. I picked up a coin that a dealer had in inventory for over six months who wanted to move it. I know for a fact that I paid 5% over dealer cost. It was a nice collector coin which was not registry set material.
Suppose it does
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Forget the calculations. It's certainly easier to mentally figure 20% than 17.5%.
It's also easier to write a check for "One hundred thousand dollars" instead "ninty two thousand four and fifty-seven dollars," but most of us would prefer to pay the lower amount.
Moot point. With Heritage shipping fees, it will round up to $100,000 anyway.
Oddly enough I view the high shipping fees as a throw away. The alternative is to attend the auction in person so that you can pick up the lots after the sale. Almost all of the auction venues would cost me more in travel expenses than the out of line shipping charges.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I must be stoopid.
When buying, I simply determine my the maximum I am willing to pay - all in. Then I back out all the fees to determine the maximum I will actually bid. I don't really care how much the auction house gets, I simply reduce my bid accordingly. If I win, fine, if I lose, fine. Personally, I think 20% is over the top.
When selling, I do the calculation in reverse. I start with market price, then back out the fees to see what I net. I am assuming that I am selling my coins which are not rare by any means. I can understand that those with multi-million dollar rarities might find that one house draws better bids than another, but that doesn't apply to my coins and it is debatable anyway.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
This. How is this even debatable?
Lots of people don't understand math and don't listen to logic. Firms exploit this, and the rest of us just have to deal with the noise and inconvenience.
>
Amen.
We live in a "net" world. It's obvious to me a lot of people have not consigned coins lately
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
GC Seller's fees are 0% on hammers over $1000. Their misc fees (listing for sellers, S&H for buyers) are minimal as well. If you factor in credit card/Paypal fees plus S&H, a consignor nets about 94% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating.
@roadrunner said:
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
** This. How is this even debatable?
Lots of people don't understand math and don't listen to logic. Firms exploit this, and the rest of us just have to deal with the noise and inconvenience.**
What appears to be perfect logic in theory does not always work out to be a valid hypothesis in real life. Sure, most bidders figure in the buyers’ fee when they calculate their bids, but there are always a few who don’t. The bottom line is, raising the buyers’ fees, within limits, raises the overall cost to successful auction bidders. It doesn’t cost you more for every item you buy, but denying the fact that it raises prices in some cases is dilutional.
And yes, if the auction houses were to raise the buyer’s fees to 100%, they would drive themselves out of the business. One would hope at that level that other, more agile sellers would get in the market, and shove a sword in the bellies of the big auction house dinosaurs.
MrEureka, myself, and numerous other Forum members (mostly active dealers) buy and sell $1,000,000 or more annually through auctions. We crunch the numbers, lots of numbers, big and small.
Your antithesis is disproved to a high statistical degree by ourselves and "other, more agile sellers" continuing our utilization of 5th grade arithmetic.
Not delusional, just factoring in the significance of the occasional outliers that anecdotally support your premise.
Shoving "a sword into the bellies of the big auction house dinosaurs" for me would be 2 1/2% less in selling commission rate, which is already quite a bit over hammer. For buying, I'm still between a rock and a hard place for some portion of a 2 1/2% gray area so treacherous that, if I don't think I should risk tying up capital for the anticipated reward, I simply STOP. That's business.
As a collector, I'd add 7.5% to 12.5% for what Harvey Stack calls "psychic income". Might be around your level, and, by me, a sane and reasonable one. Whoever said collecting was totally rational? 1877 20c collectors vs. speculators. Right now you're short-term toast because of some unavoidable-even-if-explicable market disruption.
Heritage vs. Joe Levine? McCawley/Grellman? Sheridan Downey? Legend? Other niche/boutique auction specialists? At least there are options for collectors like you who have taken the time to really know their niche(s)
Consider this: the same superior knowledge you gained as a dealer on grading and overall desirability is holding you back because greater fools (for us, label-readers), the foundation of all collectables, are in the market too.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@VanHalen said:
GC Seller's fees are 0% on hammers over $1000. Their misc fees (listing for sellers, S&H for buyers) are minimal as well. If you factor in credit card/Paypal fees plus S&H, a consignor nets about 94% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating.
94% of hammer is the same as a final GC "net" of 85% (94/110).....which I said earlier. While not great, that's a typical net from any auction house, or even on the bourse where many higher volume dealers work on a 10-15% margin. For a 10% buyer's fee, hammer is not a bad net (100/110 = 90.9%). For a 15% buyer's fee hammer+4% is about the same. And for a 17.5% BF, hammer+6% works. At 20% BF I'd expect to shoot for around hammer+8%.
Pretty clearly, this isn't all about math. If it was just finding "easy math", they would charge only ONE side of the equation, buyer or seller, and keep it constant....no negotiating. Easy math, predictable profit.
What is really at work is psychology of the buyers AND the sellers. And if not psychology alone, then experience and knowledge combined with psychology.
If a small segment ignores all, or part, of the buyers fee as "the price of acquiring", then the auction house wins!
If many consignors don't know the sellers fee is negotiable, or what they can reasonably expect to get based on the prevailing buyers fee, then the auction house wins!
When "auction fever" competition takes over, then the auction house wins!
And, when the system starts running too smoothly, and the consigners get too used to the current system and what they can demand....CHANGE THE SYSTEM! You can milk some extra cash until buyers and sellers get used to the system again.
I'm sure someone, somewhere, has attempted a study to compare 10% buyers fee vs. 15%, vs. 17.5%, vs. 20%. LOGIC says the bid plus juice should be the same in all cases, right? Reality says that one guy who is willing to pay that extra $1 than is "reasonable" based on the existing buyers fee is now really giving $1.10, or $1.15, or $1.175, or $1.20 more. (And since bid increments are much more than $1, there is much more to gain!) And we as collectors can always justify that "one bid too many" as "My knowledge and experience says this was a nicer coin than usual, so it was worth it". We're good at convincing ourselves of that.
Doesn't matter much to me. Being that I reside in a state that is taxable by most auction houses, I'm pretty much behind the curve to start with, and I rarely win anything. When I do, it's usually a pleasant surprise.
Please see the forest through the trees. This is yet another example of how is so much easier to buy a coin than to sell it. Unless you are a dealer, someone is going to get a piece of all ends of the transaction when you buy or sell a coin.
All the more reason to buy a problem free coin and be picky about it. And also keep this in mind when you are thinking about paying premiums for coins which you are thinking of buying.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
As a consigner I'm interested with what the number is on the check when it arrives in my mailbox.
As a buyer I'm interested with the what the number is I have to put on the check before I put it in the mailbox.
Other then that I could care less on how we got to those numbers. All I care about is that the mailman finds my mailbox.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@VanHalen said:
GC Seller's fees are 0% on hammers over $1000. Their misc fees (listing for sellers, S&H for buyers) are minimal as well. If you factor in credit card/Paypal fees plus S&H, a consignor nets about 94% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating.
GC charges a 10% buyer's premium regardless of bid level, which goes to GC and not the consignor. I don't care how you want to label it, it is in effect a seller's fee in my opinion.
@VanHalen said:
GC Seller's fees are 0% on hammers over $1000. Their misc fees (listing for sellers, S&H for buyers) are minimal as well. If you factor in credit card/Paypal fees plus S&H, a consignor nets about 94% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating.
94% of hammer is the same as a final GC "net" of 85% (94/110).....which I said earlier. While not great, that's a typical net from any auction house, or even on the bourse where many higher volume dealers work on a 10-15% margin. For a 10% buyer's fee, hammer is not a bad net (100/110 = 90.9%). For a 15% buyer's fee hammer+4% is about the same. And for a 17.5% BF, hammer+6% works. At 20% BF I'd expect to shoot for around hammer+8%.
My bad. I meant to write a consignor nets about 104% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating. There is no seller's fee and GC is covering CC/Paypal & S+H out of the 10% BP.
Here are my thoughts on buyers fees posted as part of my comment in another recent thread before seeing this news:
.
.
(Those places that charge buyers fees might as well charge 100 percent to simplify calculating my bid, since if I want to pay $100 then I bid $50.
It's always just been an accounting gimmick from the beginning to catch consignors that don't understand and the rare bidders that don't pay attention to the terms. "Hey consignor we will give you 150 percent of what it sold for - don't worry, the buyer pays the buyers fee". In the above scenario that may sound better to some sellers than saying "our fee is 25 percent of total amount" in a no-buyers-fee scenario, even though both are the identical situation.
Likely to go up over time to keep up with the Joneses -- which is next company of significance to try raising it -- in order to keep telling consignors how great a low rate a company has compared to other companies. Sort of like setting a clock a few minutes forward so there is extra time, but doesn't actually change anything real / End of buyers fee rant.)
.
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From original thread:
What is the biggest threat to a healthy coin market
My bad. I meant to write a consignor nets about 104% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating. There is no seller's fee and GC is covering CC/Paypal & S+H out of the 10% BP.
The GC consignors of $1,000 coins are netting 104/110 or approx 94.5%? Then if you toss in GC's advertising fees, insurance, admin expenses, photography, travel and show expenses, building rent, grading and CAC fees, Brinks, CC and Paypal fees, etc. that they somehow make money on that deal? So who is actually ponying up the 10% buyer's fee on these coins ($100 min and up)? I must admit it would an "interesting" system where the Buyer (10%) pays 2X more commissions than a Seller(5.5%). That would be something for Buyers to be really be up in arms about.
Real world example.......In Sept 2016 I bought an NGC MS63 CAC $20 Lib off GC. My invoice said I paid $1502.99 which included $10 shipping. At that time, the wholesale generic, sight-unseen bid on that coin was approx $1425-$1450. This was a nice one in an old fatty NGC holder with 63++ semi-PL surfaces. I happily paid a $50 premium to generic, unstickered junk considering equivalent looking generic 64's were going for $1650-1700. At the March 2017 local coin show I happened to have this coin with me and another dealer offered me $1475 for it.....remarkable considering gold had dropped $69 from the time I bought it back in mid-Sept 2016. My point is, I didn't pay 10% over FMV.
My winning bid (ie hammer price) was $1357.26....which factored in the 10% buyer's fee that I was going to be assessed. So who really paid the 10%/$135.73 commission on this coin? It wasn't me as I didn't pay $1642 (10% over FMV of $1493) just to help out the seller and house. I did have to pay $10.00 (0.66% fee) for shipping/insurance. The consignor was paid $1357.26 (hammer + 0%) less $10 listing fee for coins valued over $1,000....they netted 90.24%.....a 9.76% commission despite a 0% seller's fee. The auction house netted $136 minus their total in-house expenses. If GC were really giving 94.5% NET for all $1,000 coins, they'd be inundated with consignors....and would probably have to raise fees to cover all the new overhead necessary to handle it. My largest consignment ever to an auction house netted me 92.17% on all $1,000-$25,000 coins. Count me in for the 94.5%.
"So who is actually ponying up the 10% buyer's fee on these coins"
RR: The buyer ... every cent of it. And, for that matter, the buyer will be ponying up 20% over at Stacks. To the extent Stacks enters into some (a small percentage?) consignment agreements where they "share" a portion of that buyers' fee - so be it. It does not change the fact that the buyer will be paying a 20% buyers' fee.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Justacommeman said:
As a consigner I'm interested with what the number is on the check when it arrives in my mailbox.
As a buyer I'm interested with the what the number is I have to put on the check before I put it in the mailbox.
Other then that I could care less on how we got to those numbers. All I care about is that the mailman finds my mailbox.
mark
In one of the ANA "Nights", I have a $5000+ MS66+ white Morgan PCGS pop 2 better. Unpriceable based not on my secrecy but on very scattered auction results.
I will reserve it at $3000, slightly above my cost before the bump to "+"
Will it bring "wholesale hammer" of $4250? or "retail hammer" of $5250. $6500 moon-money dumbass outlier, or a once-every-few years' opportunity on a damn nice but not great coin. Dealer or collector, anyone in at $3500 hammer will be a pleased.
This is not a white MS67+ 81-S (900?-1300?) generic.
Accordingly, the concepts of wholesale and retail, as applied to this issue/grade this coin, are rhetorical.
res ipsa loquitor, but it's not enough to map a buy/sell spread
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Comments
TomB suggested a 100% buyer's fee. In reality........there's actually NO LIMIT to how high buyer's fees could go. How about 1000%? In that case you bid approx 10% of the coin's real worth to avoid overpaying. How about 10,000% buyer's fees? There you only bid 1% of the coin's value. Consignors would think they struck Gold! The limit for buyer's fees is probably somewhere in the 25-35% range. Much more than that and even clueless consignors would figure it out. Up until that point most informed consignors with typical consignments in the $20K to $250K range are going to still net out at 88-92%. It's been that way for 40 yrs despite changing BF's.
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer. The auction houses that charge buyer's fees aren't charging buyer's any additional money than if the buyer bought the coin on Ebay or on the bourse floor. It's a shell game where the price between door #1 (no buyer's fee), door #2 (10% buyer's fee such as at GC), and door #3 (20% buyer's fee) are all the same in the end. Whoever thought simple math could be so emotional? Carry on.
If published/nominal Buyer's Fees really had a major outcome in what "most" or "typical" consignors realized then Great Collections with their lower 10% fee should be cleaning up against the big boyz who list at 17.5%. In reviewing GC's net prices realized for the past 1-1/2 yrs in type coins, silver dollars, and choice/gem gold, I don't see GC getting an additional 6.8% more for their coins (117.5/110). And I don't see buyers paying 6.4% less either (110/117.5).
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Sellers will indeed fund most of increase, as bidders adjust their bid prices lower
Don't know their business model, but 20 % is stretching the band
Count your lucky stars in North America...There are some European auction houses charging up to 30% BF. some British auctioneers are world champions in charging fees in many ways.
I know that often SF is waived for a lot or reduced to a few points.
Plus in the EU there are taxes on the actual sellers fees regardless of where you live, in or outside the EU. That is a taxable service there and it was provided within the country.
you do not have to bid if you do not agree with the terms. simply, I won't.
News comes out on July 3rd...Holiday news dump anyone?
GreatCollections.com is starting to look better now. The higher these fees go, the more they're opening things up to competition.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Explain why they haven't already been killing the competition for years for coins valued over $1,000 with their 7.5% buyer's fee advantage? (and 0% seller's fee). Why isn't every informed and knowledgeable collector now only consigning with GC? I've never consigned to GC so I have no idea how negotiable they are with their posted rates.
and what your bid needs to be t set a WORLD RECORD and get media coverage
I don't understand why bother with the fee. I only pay what I want to pay. It doesn't mater what percentage of the bp. I am more concerned about the services they provide such as how fast they ship etc. it seems to me ha pretty slow in shipping.
Then why the resistance to removing them?
It's also easier to write a check for "One hundred thousand dollars" instead "ninty two thousand four and fifty-seven dollars," but most of us would prefer to pay the lower amount.
Seems like this growing trend of auction houses increasing the fee on the buyer's side, and decreasing/eliminating the fee on the seller's side (even sometimes paying them a part of the hammer) is a wash as far as the auction house cut goes, as TDN said.
I'd suspect that the low/no seller's fee would attract more than it's share of higher end collections. Judging by HA's material, I'd say it is working pretty well.
I agree reducing the sellers fee is a good way to get inventory.
They need to do more marketing. Most dealers and collectors I know don't even know who they are. I showed one of my main dealers who have owned a B&M for 30 years the site and got him hooked. I use to keep the site to myself to keep competition down, but they do such a good job with everything (pictures, fees shipping, listings etc) I tell anyone I can at this point. @ianrussell - FYI. PM me and I'll give you a few tips on where to make a few free posts to spread the word.
I don't also believe that SB is upping their fees to lose money....
Bidding online in the US auction still shows 17.5%.
The article said they were increasing it until after the ANA sale.
What extra services will be delivered for the extra charges? What improvements have there been since the last percentage increases? I remember how popular Superior was with Steve Deeds. You wonder what effect this will have on the hobby.
One of the major problems with private sales is that Greysheet and other public records do not reflect them; which could be corrected if it were made simple and straight forward, so that the auction results were not paramount in valuing numismatics.
For the answer, look no further than the roadrunner comment that you just quoted.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This. How is this even debatable?
Latin American Collection
You got me.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Depends on the coin. I picked up a coin that a dealer had in inventory for over six months who wanted to move it. I know for a fact that I paid 5% over dealer cost. It was a nice collector coin which was not registry set material.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Lots of people don't understand math and don't listen to logic. Firms exploit this, and the rest of us just have to deal with the noise and inconvenience.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
buy a coin for a dollar ,kick in another 20 cents....... buy a coin for a millon,kick in another 200 grand....simple math....excuse me while I adjust my shirt to accomodate the heart attack
What appears to be perfect logic in theory does not always work out to be a valid hypothesis in real life. Sure, most bidders figure in the buyers’ fee when they calculate their bids, but there are always a few who don’t. The bottom line is, raising the buyers’ fees, within limits, raises the overall cost to successful auction bidders. It doesn’t cost you more for every item you buy, but denying the fact that it raises prices in some cases is dilutional.
And yes, if the auction houses were to raise the buyer’s fees to 100%, they would drive themselves out of the business. One would hope at that level that other, more agile sellers would get in the market, and shove a sword in the bellies of the big auction house dinosaurs.
Great Collections gets 10% from buyer and 5% from seller on most auction lots. My coin club gets 5% from seller, nothing from buyer.
Funny how most folks are looking at this only from the perspective of a buyer. I'd say it affects consignors to a much greater degree. At the very least, consignment negotiations now start in a different place.
Moot point. With Heritage shipping fees, it will round up to $100,000 anyway.
Would be helpful if the consignee's published a sliding fee based on volume, rather than forcing an elderly consignor or estate executor into a crap shoot on selling fees.
Suppose it does
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Oddly enough I view the high shipping fees as a throw away. The alternative is to attend the auction in person so that you can pick up the lots after the sale. Almost all of the auction venues would cost me more in travel expenses than the out of line shipping charges.
I must be stoopid.
When buying, I simply determine my the maximum I am willing to pay - all in. Then I back out all the fees to determine the maximum I will actually bid. I don't really care how much the auction house gets, I simply reduce my bid accordingly. If I win, fine, if I lose, fine. Personally, I think 20% is over the top.
When selling, I do the calculation in reverse. I start with market price, then back out the fees to see what I net. I am assuming that I am selling my coins which are not rare by any means. I can understand that those with multi-million dollar rarities might find that one house draws better bids than another, but that doesn't apply to my coins and it is debatable anyway.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
>
Amen.
We live in a "net" world. It's obvious to me a lot of people have not consigned coins lately
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It is only a matter of time before Heritage and Legend follow suit.
Which is the nearly the same as saying they get a net 15% from the sellers in the majority of sales. Larger consignments may negotiate a better rate.
GC Seller's fees are 0% on hammers over $1000. Their misc fees (listing for sellers, S&H for buyers) are minimal as well. If you factor in credit card/Paypal fees plus S&H, a consignor nets about 94% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating.
Add a zero and add 10% to that at most of the others
@BillJones,
MrEureka, myself, and numerous other Forum members (mostly active dealers) buy and sell $1,000,000 or more annually through auctions. We crunch the numbers, lots of numbers, big and small.
Your antithesis is disproved to a high statistical degree by ourselves and "other, more agile sellers" continuing our utilization of 5th grade arithmetic.
Not delusional, just factoring in the significance of the occasional outliers that anecdotally support your premise.
Shoving "a sword into the bellies of the big auction house dinosaurs" for me would be 2 1/2% less in selling commission rate, which is already quite a bit over hammer. For buying, I'm still between a rock and a hard place for some portion of a 2 1/2% gray area so treacherous that, if I don't think I should risk tying up capital for the anticipated reward, I simply STOP. That's business.
As a collector, I'd add 7.5% to 12.5% for what Harvey Stack calls "psychic income". Might be around your level, and, by me, a sane and reasonable one. Whoever said collecting was totally rational? 1877 20c collectors vs. speculators. Right now you're short-term toast because of some unavoidable-even-if-explicable market disruption.
Heritage vs. Joe Levine? McCawley/Grellman? Sheridan Downey? Legend? Other niche/boutique auction specialists? At least there are options for collectors like you who have taken the time to really know their niche(s)
Consider this: the same superior knowledge you gained as a dealer on grading and overall desirability is holding you back because greater fools (for us, label-readers), the foundation of all collectables, are in the market too.
94% of hammer is the same as a final GC "net" of 85% (94/110).....which I said earlier. While not great, that's a typical net from any auction house, or even on the bourse where many higher volume dealers work on a 10-15% margin. For a 10% buyer's fee, hammer is not a bad net (100/110 = 90.9%). For a 15% buyer's fee hammer+4% is about the same. And for a 17.5% BF, hammer+6% works. At 20% BF I'd expect to shoot for around hammer+8%.
Pretty clearly, this isn't all about math. If it was just finding "easy math", they would charge only ONE side of the equation, buyer or seller, and keep it constant....no negotiating. Easy math, predictable profit.
What is really at work is psychology of the buyers AND the sellers. And if not psychology alone, then experience and knowledge combined with psychology.
I'm sure someone, somewhere, has attempted a study to compare 10% buyers fee vs. 15%, vs. 17.5%, vs. 20%. LOGIC says the bid plus juice should be the same in all cases, right? Reality says that one guy who is willing to pay that extra $1 than is "reasonable" based on the existing buyers fee is now really giving $1.10, or $1.15, or $1.175, or $1.20 more. (And since bid increments are much more than $1, there is much more to gain!) And we as collectors can always justify that "one bid too many" as "My knowledge and experience says this was a nicer coin than usual, so it was worth it". We're good at convincing ourselves of that.
Doesn't matter much to me. Being that I reside in a state that is taxable by most auction houses, I'm pretty much behind the curve to start with, and I rarely win anything. When I do, it's usually a pleasant surprise.
Please see the forest through the trees. This is yet another example of how is so much easier to buy a coin than to sell it. Unless you are a dealer, someone is going to get a piece of all ends of the transaction when you buy or sell a coin.
All the more reason to buy a problem free coin and be picky about it. And also keep this in mind when you are thinking about paying premiums for coins which you are thinking of buying.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
As a consigner I'm interested with what the number is on the check when it arrives in my mailbox.
As a buyer I'm interested with the what the number is I have to put on the check before I put it in the mailbox.
Other then that I could care less on how we got to those numbers. All I care about is that the mailman finds my mailbox.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
GC charges a 10% buyer's premium regardless of bid level, which goes to GC and not the consignor. I don't care how you want to label it, it is in effect a seller's fee in my opinion.
My bad. I meant to write a consignor nets about 104% of hammer on coins over $1000 without any negotiating. There is no seller's fee and GC is covering CC/Paypal & S+H out of the 10% BP.
Here are my thoughts on buyers fees posted as part of my comment in another recent thread before seeing this news:
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(Those places that charge buyers fees might as well charge 100 percent to simplify calculating my bid, since if I want to pay $100 then I bid $50.
It's always just been an accounting gimmick from the beginning to catch consignors that don't understand and the rare bidders that don't pay attention to the terms. "Hey consignor we will give you 150 percent of what it sold for - don't worry, the buyer pays the buyers fee". In the above scenario that may sound better to some sellers than saying "our fee is 25 percent of total amount" in a no-buyers-fee scenario, even though both are the identical situation.
Likely to go up over time to keep up with the Joneses -- which is next company of significance to try raising it -- in order to keep telling consignors how great a low rate a company has compared to other companies. Sort of like setting a clock a few minutes forward so there is extra time, but doesn't actually change anything real / End of buyers fee rant.)
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From original thread:
What is the biggest threat to a healthy coin market
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11746433#Comment_11746433
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
The GC consignors of $1,000 coins are netting 104/110 or approx 94.5%? Then if you toss in GC's advertising fees, insurance, admin expenses, photography, travel and show expenses, building rent, grading and CAC fees, Brinks, CC and Paypal fees, etc. that they somehow make money on that deal? So who is actually ponying up the 10% buyer's fee on these coins ($100 min and up)? I must admit it would an "interesting" system where the Buyer (10%) pays 2X more commissions than a Seller(5.5%). That would be something for Buyers to be really be up in arms about.
Real world example.......In Sept 2016 I bought an NGC MS63 CAC $20 Lib off GC. My invoice said I paid $1502.99 which included $10 shipping. At that time, the wholesale generic, sight-unseen bid on that coin was approx $1425-$1450. This was a nice one in an old fatty NGC holder with 63++ semi-PL surfaces. I happily paid a $50 premium to generic, unstickered junk considering equivalent looking generic 64's were going for $1650-1700. At the March 2017 local coin show I happened to have this coin with me and another dealer offered me $1475 for it.....remarkable considering gold had dropped $69 from the time I bought it back in mid-Sept 2016. My point is, I didn't pay 10% over FMV.
My winning bid (ie hammer price) was $1357.26....which factored in the 10% buyer's fee that I was going to be assessed. So who really paid the 10%/$135.73 commission on this coin? It wasn't me as I didn't pay $1642 (10% over FMV of $1493) just to help out the seller and house. I did have to pay $10.00 (0.66% fee) for shipping/insurance. The consignor was paid $1357.26 (hammer + 0%) less $10 listing fee for coins valued over $1,000....they netted 90.24%.....a 9.76% commission despite a 0% seller's fee. The auction house netted $136 minus their total in-house expenses. If GC were really giving 94.5% NET for all $1,000 coins, they'd be inundated with consignors....and would probably have to raise fees to cover all the new overhead necessary to handle it. My largest consignment ever to an auction house netted me 92.17% on all $1,000-$25,000 coins. Count me in for the 94.5%.
"So who is actually ponying up the 10% buyer's fee on these coins"
RR: The buyer ... every cent of it. And, for that matter, the buyer will be ponying up 20% over at Stacks. To the extent Stacks enters into some (a small percentage?) consignment agreements where they "share" a portion of that buyers' fee - so be it. It does not change the fact that the buyer will be paying a 20% buyers' fee.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I finally saw their press release. This is doing us all a favor, making it 20% across the board.
In one of the ANA "Nights", I have a $5000+ MS66+ white Morgan PCGS pop 2 better. Unpriceable based not on my secrecy but on very scattered auction results.
I will reserve it at $3000, slightly above my cost before the bump to "+"
Will it bring "wholesale hammer" of $4250? or "retail hammer" of $5250. $6500 moon-money dumbass outlier, or a once-every-few years' opportunity on a damn nice but not great coin. Dealer or collector, anyone in at $3500 hammer will be a pleased.
This is not a white MS67+ 81-S (900?-1300?) generic.
Accordingly, the concepts of wholesale and retail, as applied to this issue/grade this coin, are rhetorical.
res ipsa loquitor, but it's not enough to map a buy/sell spread