She's baccccccccckkkkkk....
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
It's a good thing.
_Any dealer worth their salt who has been in biz for more then 5 years must have some known credible collections they have built. _
I can think of a number of top notch dealers over the past 40 yrs that didn't build any "credible" or Top REG SET collections. Many of them just being dealer's dealers at the top of the wholesale food chain....selling the best coins in the world, to other dealers, who would eventually find a home for them in a major set.
Any local B&M shop can sell PCGS-CAC coins to someone building a collection. It doesn't mean either one of them exactly knows what they're doing. And in the end, they would end up with a credible set....though not necessarily the best value or best thought of set.
Gene Gardner's seated sets had a 55% CAC rate as I recall, where a lot of the NGC coins didn't sticker. It was probably the best assemblage of seated dimes/quarters/halves ever. There was no special effort to avoid lower end coins if they were the best available and happened to be in a higher grade holder...or weren't PQ or couldn't sticker. Most of the set was built even before CAC showed up. If Gene were beginning that set today, I don't think they would be mesmerized with PCGS CAC. It still comes down to the best available coins, in whatever holders and grades you find them in. You can build the best set possible with the best coins available....or you can build a PCGS-CAC only set. Two different things. I would tend to lean to owning the best coins, wherever the chips (holders and stickers) may fall.
She's 100% right here, only buy PCGS/CAC coins period! However, I cannot afford her highest quality standards in most cases.
I must be reading this incorrectly:
"You should know by now, unless a coin is part of a major fresh deal that simply did not make it to CAC due to timing, then stay away-far away. No dealer or auction house worth their salt would not want anything but PCGS CAC coins as they bring the most money."
Is she basically saying that no auction house would want anything other than PCGS-CACed coins?
Enjoyed reading that.
Most of what she preaches also applies to non-stratosphere collections, imo.
I see you were called out for being ".....blinded by domination....".
Never heard that one before but made me laugh.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I think any auction house would want the most coins they can get. It still comes down to prices realized and net commissions after expenses, not the number of CAC'd coins. The auction houses that got Newman's and Gardner's collection ended up with coins CACing 55-65% of the time. It's not like they would turn them away if they were not 95% PCGS-CAC. And Newman was all NGC....instant pass right? Then Pogue removed all their CAC stickers? Another instant pass, right? It's still about the coins. It wasn't that long ago when Eliasberg and Pittman went off 100% raw in 1996-1998. It didn't hurt them any. It wouldn't have hurt them any today either.
There are many "markets" within any collectible item.
No different that automobiles. How many people on this board have seen a Ford Model T in person?
How many people on this board have DRIVEN a Model T?
How many members have driven a high horsepower big block __________________ (fill in your personal favorite musclecar)?
There is a big difference between owning a possession and interacting. Absolutely nothing wrong with owning the finest available date/mm coin in any series.
How many of us have held a raw 1804 dollar? 1913 nickel? 3 legged buffalo?
I would think so too, which is why I was wondering if I was misunderstanding her.
She thinks a little too highly of herself.....don't ya think?
Somebody should put together a crew and get Netflix to shoot a show about Laura and Legend...She definitely has the bulldog mentality and TV audiences absolutely love that type...I know I would watch it! Every time I read a Hot Topic I wish I could watch her reading it...i always preferred Rush's dittocam to AM radio because I could feel him better that way
Whoopdy-do
I doubt it since Legend Auctions offers ATS-non-CAC.
That was exactly where I was going with this. Either way her statement makes no sense, and I wish I knew what she really meant.
She seems to be saying that collectors and auction houses should prefer all PCGS-CAC but, when you cannot get them, it's okay to deviate if you don't sacrifice quality:
"I used to blame the Registries for this. Now I realize, its like a gun, people shoot the guns. "
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Good to hear the justification from the docs. I wonder if this doctor is a PNG member and is disclosing the doctoring under the PNG Code of Ethics?
Sort of attempts to further elevate and define the requirements of assembling what is perceived as the best. And to some degree, that is fine until the consequences trickle down and impact coins that are good for what they are... And one could could even say spectacular for what they are. Even though certain coins are not the best in terms of being the finest known, there is still pride and great satisfaction in owning coins that may be the finest known at certain grade levels. Attractive collections exist at different levels of preservation. This point will remain under appreciated until coins return to the focal point of our hobby.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
given her parting shot in the final hours when the Open Forum was closing, essentially insulting and thumbing her nose to every member here, it surprises me that so many still worship at her alter and hang on her every word.
I must remember that this is largely a greed driven Hobby,
For those short on time, a summary:
Patience is a virtue.
End of story.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"I used to blame the Registries for this. Now I realize, its like a gun, people shoot the guns. "
This confuses me....Of course people shoot guns... and they drive cars, and they eat food...... You utilize things for their intended purpose. How that applies to a coin collection is a mystery. Cheers, RickO
Although I don't agree with everything Laura says, I do know this. She has been a dealer with top clients for years, handled some of the best coins, and lives and breathes coins. I am happy that she posts her thoughts and look forward to it every time.
CAC is a dealer opinion. PCGS CAC means that PCGS graded the coin, and one coin dealer (John A) liked it.
Basically Laura seems to be saying that she trusts John's eye as much or more than her own most times and that clients should as well.
Which is fine, just a little surprising to me when a major dealer comes right out and defers their opinion on nice coins to the opinion of another major dealer. I'd expect more ego than that in this very ego-driven profession.
CAC didn't sticker the 1901, suggesting at best it's "not solid for the grade."
Maybe the 1901 would have been a "greater, unmessed with coin" in a 65+ holder, adding much more prestige to the Coronet Collection? How will the collector know when that unstickered MS66 coin is preferable to it being stickered at 65+? Is there a chart or guidebook for that? Figuring it out AFTER the auction result is way too late. More confusion. If there were only 3 coins in Coronet not stickered, wouldn't it have made more sense to get those stickered in lower grades to be able to claim 100% PCGS-CAC for even more prestige? It's not like it would have changed the collection's value any. Everyone knows the ex-Jack Lee 1901 is the best one yet seen by the TPG's. The cheek does look a bit chattered up to be a solid MS66. I'd side with CAC.
http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2015/10/1901-morgan-dollar-from-legends-coronet-collection-sale-a-silent-key.all.html
PCGS price guide is $400K for MS65, $450K for MS65+ and $587K for the lone MS66. Would have to think that as a PCGS 65+ CAC his coin would be $500K-$525K. Not really a lot of difference in price between the 65's and the 66....which are apparently all in the same ball park. Doesn't seem like this coin as non-CAC 65 didn't drag anything down with it.
http://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/21481786/-1-1901-pcgs-ms66-ex-jack-lee/?tab=0
I've always figured a collection is a sum of the parts...that included Stack, Norweb, Pittman, Eliasberg, Pogue, and many others. Not quite sure I agree that a collection with low end coins drags the entire set down. If you're buying the entire set intact, then that's a possible concern. When the set is broken up at auction, the sharks and collectors go after the coins they want, regardless of what other coins surround them. The collection as a whole gets the bidders in the door. The coins themselves (and holders/stickers) are then responsible for their individual prices.
At least we know love is not involved.
Interesting thread and read. I agree with nearly everything that is brought up in the article and look forward to her discussion of the "1994 Collection." But I always find it amusing that people insist on grinding the axe against whatever the brain trust at Legend writes. I mean, at least they have the spine to put their name and reputation behind the posts they write, can all of you on here say the same?
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
The NRA argument is that guns don't kill people...people kill people...
Similarly...the PCGS registry sets don't cause competition...people cause competition....
No I don't...I appreciate her taking the time to write these reports and I learn a lot from them...
Sorry, but her grammar kills me.
Of course if all I sold and bought were Barbie dolls, I would tell everyone that Chatty Cathy dolls and GI Joe action figures, and those who play with them are ignorant and stupid.
Very few collections remain intact when they are sold. They are either sold one lot at a time in an auction, or a dealer buys them and sells them one coin at a time. The fact that great set has a “clinker” in it does not mean much of anything.
It’s a trivial example but I remember that that the 1854-S quarter eagle in Eliasberg’s gold set was only a VG or so. There are much better examples. It didn’t stop that collection from bringing some record prices at the time despite the fact that the child who inherited it forced Bowers to sell the set too quickly and did not allow the market to “mature” before the sale.
As an "old timer" I can tell you that this statement is not true. I have seen slightly messed with coins with CAC stickers.
It's original...like her coins
I would have spelled it baaaaaaaaaaack
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes, I think I can as a matter of fact. I endeavor to tell the truth as I see it here. The only time that I have admitted to pulling my punches, and not completely pulling my punches was with NGC before they started their fight with PCGS. After that the gloves have been off.
I would think everyone on this forum that has been here a few years or more puts their name, reputation, and spine behind anything they post. How it would be anything else? If didn't believe in what I posted....I wouldn't post it. Some posted that they agree with 100% with the Legend Hot Topics. That's a rather simplistic reply. I mentioned a few things for thought. Rarely is 100% agreement in play in the coin business. And when people just go along with the flow by stating 100% agreement to numerous statements/opinions on many varied topics, I have to consider are they really critically thinking?
I agree with Bill Jones that a CAC sticker doesn't mean a coin is unmessed with....or even solid for the grade. To suggest otherwise means CAC is 100% infallible.
Slamming two of your customers on a blog doesn't seem like the proper way to go about it imo.
EAC 6024
It is similar to calling the kettle black. Where I'm from it is called "hob-knobbing", rubbing shoulders", brown-nosing, or sucking up.... but in the quest for perfection, where do we want to go ? Where do we want to be ? Where are we ? As collectors, that is ?
I'm asking more as a wannabe dealer , a chat-room weenie, a dweeb, and overall LOSER in the world of numismatics, as witnessed in what I refer to as "her rants" I .... as a common man, am more often offended by some of her brashness as I'm sure millions of others might be turned off by my boldness to her highness. I keep reminding myself " it is from her perch ". Lofty , though it may be, the way one LQQKS down has a lot to say why some cannot LOOK UP to, except in the field we all play in. But alas... she is right. She is always right. Make no mistake. So long as she stands on principle ( and quality ), I am for her.
Of course this is what she says because she's part of PCGS. It's not like she'll say but the competitor's coins.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
..
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Agreed.
On the other hand, a handful of clunkers in a collection can impact the value of the provenance. And by "clunkers" I don't mean "less than finest known", but outright mistakes. Those mistakes call into question the judgment of the collector, thereby diminishing the value of the provenance. And that's why, for example, I value a Pogue or Clapp provenance higher than Pittman or Eliasberg.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Gazes said: "Although I don't agree with everything Laura says, I do know this. She has been a dealer with top clients for years, handled some of the best coins, and lives and breathes coins. I am happy that she posts her thoughts and look forward to it every time."
While I have written about her, we have never met. I agree with this comment.
What I have to add is probably common knowledge. If a dealer can develop a few clients with deep pockets it does not matter whether they want to assemble a set of specific coins or are generalists. The dealer will become very rich and successful.
I enjoy reading her 'Hot Topics' and 'Market Reports'. They come across as a little abrasive, arrogant and ambiguous, at times, but I still enjoy reading her take. She puts forth the time and effort to write them and she has been in the business and has acquired the experience over many years, so they are informative and entertaining to me and I appreciate that.
I couldn't really tell, if she was advocating an all PCGS/CAC collection or not, b/c at one point she contradicted herself, but I mostly inferred that she was.
I refuse to collect that way, as I want the best set. Period. You are limiting yourself far too much, if you exclude NGC, etc.
I do agree with her thoughts regarding patience and quality, though, and I have practiced these virtues, since day one. I'll take a great 65 over a bland 66 or 67 any day of the week. And, YES, building a great set takes MANY years of dedication, hard work and due diligence.
I like that she speaks her mind, even if I don't always agree. That makes it refreshing and honest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that, especially coming from someone as flamboyant and field-tested as her. Her reports are certainly never boring---that's for sure!! lol
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Naively I wonder how coins were bought and sold before CAC? or even before PCGS?
www.brunkauctions.com
Any press is good press
I actually enjoy watching her comments fire up the chat room. They get things going around here and also take the focus off Instagram deals for a while 
Here is another take on a different, yet rewarding and profitable segment of the market. Every coin is valuable and a money maker if you buy it at the right price (Yes, even doo doo dreck).
I have bought many ultra rare (R-5) super turds at the right price and sold them as ultra rare super turds for a higher amount. It was just as fun and rewarding for a coin pauper like me. To each their own.
On the other hand, every dealer I truly respect tells me to always buy quality, not crap. They essentially are telling me the same thing that Laura is except they don't hinge quality on PCGS CAC only. In fact, when it comes to bust coins, many quality coins are found raw because most of us seem to like them that way.
Personally, I respect Laura's business model as much as I respect the one stop shop who buys and sells every coin out there because they both make the coin market more efficient. It's kind of like fishing, we need the bottom feeders just as much as the trophy fish to keep the ecosystem in balance. Some people like catching pan fish all day long because they taste good. Some people like catching trophy fish because they get a great picture or fish mount. Some of us like to catch any fish because a bad day fishing is better than a good day at work. To each their own.
Her reports are so painful to read to the point that having topstuf reformat them would be a vast improvement.
With a lot of my grade vs. your grade. It was also a different time because the Internet wasn't as big and, while there were price guides, there was not a lot of detailed price histories from auction houses we have today.
Buy the coin not the holder OR the sticker.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Quite successfully. It wasn't that hard, really. In a way, I find it much harder today as every transaction now includes the opinions (or non-opinions if not formerly stated) of 2-3 other parties (PCGS, NGC, CAC). There were top dealers in the days of yore that could safely navigate you around the traps during the raw epoch. I found 2 that I worked with from 1982-1986. If you relied on your B&M's for guidance, you probably took in the "orange undies" 90% of the time. Back then, you only had to come to an agreement with a potential buyer to make a transaction. If they liked it, they bought it, done deal. And if they were sharp, they found a still higher buyer. It took 2 to make a transaction. Today, that same buyer is now looking for tacit agreement from a TPG and/or CAC when buying any higher priced coin....now it takes up to 5 people/entities to make a transaction....and they rarely all agree....and the opinions can change from submission to submission.
LOL She'll never pass any English classes but she knows a little about coins.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
@tradedollarnut Can you provide some thoughts on what changed your mind, and also how it feels to want, vs. not want, that coin in your set?