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She's baccccccccckkkkkk....

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  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rainbowroosie said:
    Buy the coin not the holder OR the sticker.

    So true. The other half of the equation is where the rubber meets the road though:

    "Sell" the holder and/or the sticker. Buying has no ramifications....until you sell.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 12:02PM

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I go into a ice cream shop I'm buying chocolate chip, you may like Rocky Road or Strawberry. To a certain extent what is appealing to one may not be another's flavor.

    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does responding here make me a chatroom weenie? :)

    Am i the only one who thinks she closely reads these threads, paying close attention to what we, the chatroom weenies, are saying? ;)

    All of that aside, I think Laura makes some good points in this one. I took my Peace dollar collection about as far as I could go on the budget available to me. It topped out at #9 in the PGCS registry before selling it. With one exception there were no top-pop coins in the set. I didn't have the luxury of seeing all of the coins in the more highly ranked sets, but over the years I did see many of them. Some sets had superb coins but many others were nothing but a grouping of wannabe coins in fancy plastic. About 2/3 of my set was CAC approved - many purchased that way but not all. Some of the non-CAC approved coins were weak, but a couple were fantastic..... like she says, just a difference of grading opinion.

    I was lucky to sell my set to a single buyer which isn't terribly common. Virtually all collections are broken up when sold. At auction, I'm not sure one or two bad coins hurts the value of the set as much as she claims. Sure, they don't help but EVERY collection has strong points and weaknesses.

    Interestingly, while assembling my collection I made inquiries about Peace dollars on Legend's website two different times. I never received a return email or phone call. Neither coin was critical to my set and I was eventually able to find equal or superior coins elsewhere. I'm sure that if the coins were important enough to me I could have "made it happen" but it was curious they wouldn't even call back. I still look at their site sometimes, but the message to me was that I wasn't worth their time. It's been a burr under my saddle ever since.

    Finally, where on CAC's website does it GUARANTEE that they will never approve a doctored coin? I'm not saying JA isn't one of the best at detecting these issues and I'm not saying he wouldn't make good on it if one were discovered, but when she says "... the one thing it absolutely guarantees you-NO doctored coins..." it seems a little over the top to me.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ScarsdaleCoin said:
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I go into a ice cream shop I'm buying chocolate chip, you may like Rocky Road or Strawberry. To a certain extent what is appealing to one may not be another's flavor.

    I'll buy any of them, if they are on sale. The price can be good enough to change one's mind.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Laura Sperber wrote:
    My partner Bruce Morelan and I sparred over the inclusion of the one finest known coin for one of his sets. At the time Bruce was blinded by domination and having every #1 coin. No he looks back and is glad he never bought the one coin. The coin was marginal in quality-and more important, the eye appeal was poor. One bad coin is his wonder sets would stand out like a sore thumb. I can’t tell you how many times he had been tempted to buy the coin to this day.

    @tradedollarnut Can you provide some thoughts on changed your mind, and also how it feels to want, vs. not want, that coin in your set?

    The allure of every single coin in a set being pop 1/0 is very difficult to resist so yes she had to hold me back. My coin blows it away on eye appeal. I focused on the fact that my coin was discovered in my home town and a little bit of gradeflation occurred to make a couple of the others 2/0 and now it doesn't bother me. I still toy with the idea of buying it...if only to downgrade it!

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HappyLittleTrees said:
    Her reports are so painful to read to the point that having topstuf reformat them would be a vast improvement.

    If I formatted them, I might obscure her subtle opinion .....AGAINST..... CAC.
    Which is exactly what she does when she dismisses the NGC coins that are stickered.

    (Oh sure, she says that A FEW ....may... be "accepted"...... uh-huh)

    The whole premise of the CAC model is that they EVALUATE the....GRADE!
    Nothing in what CAC "says" indicates that they must approve the holder, too.

    She's either wrong or CAC is.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 9:51AM

    @Walkerfan said: LOL She'll never pass any English classes but she knows a little about coins. ;)

    I'm not going to post my IQ or English SAT score. Just consider this. She is a successful and knowledgeable coin dealer. I too cringe while reading her posts but I'm not correcting a Press Release and read right past any obvious errors with her grammar or spelling.

    Perhaps her brain is working faster than her fingers. My posts often have so many errors (including the "E" key does not work with just a light touch and too cheap to buy new keyboard) that I need to edit them all the time! I should think she should do the same or have someone proofread them. That way she would be though of as a numismatic marketing genius', coin expert, and good writer.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rainbowroosie said:
    Buy the coin not the holder OR the sticker.

    This assumes there is a disconnect between the coin and the holder/sticker. What I have found looking at coins in my series-- the coins that look the best to me often are in a pcgs holder and have a green sticker. In 100% of the cases ? No. But I seem to do best when I like the coin AND it is pcga/cac Vice Versa coins that I don't like are rarely in a pcgs cac holder (again we are talking the large majority). In short, in general, buying the coin should be consistent with buying pcgs/cac in most cases

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,450 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone know what "succuried " means ? Scurry/& or succumbed ?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Anyone know what "succuried " means ? Scurry/& or succumbed ?

    I read it as:

    Of course BOTH collectors [scurried] around on their own and paid to much for the new additions.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Anyone know what "succuried " means ? Scurry/& or succumbed ?

    Possibly either "safe" or "acquired." I'm too lazy and uninterested to go back and search for how it was used in the sentence.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 10:13AM

    Perhaps an interesting question for TDN would be What analysis did he follow in making the decision to exclude that so-called finest coin? Was that coin not attractive based on a comparison to other surviving top pop examples within the series or were there just more pleasing examples of that date that may just be more satisfying to own? I see a significant distinction that is worth making here. There are some dates with a series that are just plain challenging and often may not meet expectations. So should the expectations change based on circumstances associated with the production, handling and surviving population which in most instances, are unique to the individual dates within the series?

    Readers' Digest condensed version... What do you do when the surviving population of a date is just not up to par?

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was a very common date: 1878-S. Ex Knoxville Collection. When I saw the coin in its freshly graded Ngc holder, my reaction was "yuck, that will never cross". Never say never...

    Interesting enough, that particular coin and my coin both sold in the Heritage 1990 ANA sale in Seattle.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pictures can be a convenient way to answer questions... Terrific coin

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • TLeverageTLeverage Posts: 259 ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 11:15AM

    @tradedollarnut said:
    It was a very common date: 1878-S. Ex Knoxville Collection. When I saw the coin in its freshly graded Ngc holder, my reaction was "yuck, that will never cross". Never say never...

    Interesting enough, that particular coin and my coin both sold in the Heritage 1990 ANA sale in Seattle.

    Based on the ridiculous condition, identical date, and simultaneous sale, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that both of those coins were from the Seattle Hoard. I think it was roughly two dozen coins, if memory serves. I would be interested in knowing what the _lowest _ grade assigned to a coin from that hoard was, because most of the examples I've seen were quite stunning.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the value of cac certification. For me that is more a risk management value which I would think is the name of the game for high end rarity collectors/investors. However I'm finding their part ownership of Greysheet something of a concern where the cac approved and non-approved coins fetch different price levels. With auction histories on valuable coins searchable relatively easily it is hard to see how future sale of those coins whether cac sticker or not would drag the others down. Each coin usually stands on its merits.

  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that Laura's "Hot Topic" is certainly thought provoking. I don't think it is as controversial as some portray it to be. Many of the things she highlights such as buying eye appeal vs. grade are very important and hard to execute on especially for very rare coins and condition rarity. My set of early quarter eagles is all CAC'd except for two coins that are PCGS but not CAC. They are both top pop. They are very difficult to find and opportunity cost played a role in acquiring them. I believe that they are original but not high end for the grade. I could downgrade them one day but that day is not here yet.
    However, I don't think they bring down the value of my set. Her "Hot Topic" makes me question strategy and that is very healthy.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ignore the iceberg captain......we are less than 24 hours from New York!

  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    While a few people (especially old timers and chatroom dweebs) can’t stand CAC, the one thing it absolutely guarantees you-NO doctored coins.

    As an "old timer" I can tell you that this statement is not true. I have seen slightly messed with coins with CAC stickers.

    My experience is - generally speaking, the chances of getting a doctored coin with a CAC sticker is less than getting a doctored coin without one. So Bill is right but it is still another layer of protection for those of us who are still learning what doctored coins look like.

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That 1878-S is Sweet and the story about the SDB coins is also cool.

  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonruns said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    She thinks a little too highly of herself.....don't ya think?

    No I don't...I appreciate her taking the time to write these reports and I learn a lot from them...

    Keep in mind her prose is directed at the extremely wealthy collectors she sells to and not most of us. PCGS/CAC works for what they sell - a limited uber niche in the highest end coins. Nevertheless, some lessons in there for those of us who only can afford mostly dreck.

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,397 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 4:42PM

    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In negotiations one often puts in clauses to elicit specific leverage or responses. Like so, I get the feeling that these "market updates" are often written with a very narrow audience in mind with very specific messages targeted at them.

    That said they serve the greater good and one would be wise to pay attention to how pros in any context operate and model your behavior accordingly at least relatively.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 6:39PM
  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

    Indeed, they list on their website the occasional sub 5 figure coin. Also quote from their website:

    "LEGEND NUMISMATICS DEALS IN THE TOP 5% RARITY AND QUALITY."

    Most of those involved in numismatics I am pretty sure collect the other 95%..........

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:
    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

    Indeed, they list on their website the occasional sub 5 figure coin. Also quote from their website:

    "LEGEND NUMISMATICS DEALS IN THE TOP 5% RARITY AND QUALITY."

    Most of those involved in numismatics I am pretty sure collect the other 95%..........

    Best, SH

    No dealer is able to be there for every collector. Shrug

  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,392 ✭✭✭✭✭

    She is dyiiiiiiing to be able post on this forum. Tears her up to miss the drama.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 7:48PM

    @MilesWaits said:
    She is dyiiiiiiing to be able post on this forum. Tears her up to miss the drama.

    I pretty much doubt that....

    She's referred to the forums as swamps and worse.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,397 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 7:56PM

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:
    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

    Indeed, they list on their website the occasional sub 5 figure coin.

    They actually have more sub 5 figure coins than over 5 figure coins right now:

    • 64 sub 5 figure coins
    • 30 over 5 figure coins
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:

    "LEGEND NUMISMATICS DEALS IN THE TOP 5% RARITY AND QUALITY."

    How is that defined? If a certain coin has a pop of 5 in MS66, even the best MS66 is only in the top 20%. ;)
    Now if we include the entire range of condition from PO01 to MS70 (ie circulated and low end MS coin in existence) then logically almost everyone collecting pre-1964 gem silver, nickel, and copper coins is purchasing well in the top 5% of all coins.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,392 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 7:58PM

    @logger7 said:

    @MilesWaits said:
    She is dyiiiiiiing to be able post on this forum. Tears her up to miss the drama.

    I pretty much doubt that....

    She's referred to the forums as swamps and worse.

    The swamp booted her out. Many years ago.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:

    "LEGEND NUMISMATICS DEALS IN THE TOP 5% RARITY AND QUALITY."

    How is that defined? If a certain coin has a pop of 5 in MS66, even the best MS66 is only in the top 20%. ;)

    >

    I disagree with that assertion.

  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roadrunner

    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • rainbowroosierainbowroosie Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭✭

    Justacommem has got it just right. I've passed on numerous higher graded coins to buy a coin with special appeal. I invariably pay way over sheet, but I don't need anyone to tell me the coin is all there.

    "You keep your 1804 dollar and 1822 half eagle -- give me rainbow roosies in MS68."
    rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 10:26PM

    That does not sound like a very healthy market to me, yet she does not think the market is weak. Go figure. I guess you might be happy to unload your coins at wholesale if you're a dealer and pay wholesale, but most of us collectors didn't. We are then coin chat room weenies when we complain that we can't sell the coins for what we paid (retail). It doesn't look like she can either.

    "The biggest excitement of the show - a major explosion in front of the show hotels ( a huge underground steam pipe blew up)...Values actually are going up for BETTER NICE coins, however due to poor reporting of prices and retreads that are serious dreck, at times it can look like the market is weak while at the top end it clearly is not."

  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭

    I see Laura is still Laura. :)

    Hi TDN. Hope you and yours are well.

    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,234 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:
    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

    Indeed, they list on their website the occasional sub 5 figure coin.

    They actually have more sub 5 figure coins than over 5 figure coins right now:

    • 64 sub 5 figure coins
    • 30 over 5 figure coins

    I think you meant 4 figure coins. Legend only has one piece over 5 figures that I can see and it's 7 figures. legendnumismatics.com 1792-silver-center-cent-pcgs-ms67bn/

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,397 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2017 8:55AM

    @VanHalen said:

    @Zoins said:

    @spacehayduke said:

    @Zoins said:
    Legend's inventory starts under $1,000 so they do have coins at the shallower end of the pool.

    Indeed, they list on their website the occasional sub 5 figure coin.

    They actually have more sub 5 figure coins than over 5 figure coins right now:

    • 64 sub 5 figure coins
    • 30 over 5 figure coins

    I think you meant 4 figure coins. Legend only has one piece over 5 figures that I can see and it's 7 figures. legendnumismatics.com 1792-silver-center-cent-pcgs-ms67bn/

    I was using $10,000 as "5 figures" and meant:

    • 64 coins < $10,000
    • 30 coins >= $10,000

    So the "64 sub 5 figure coins" was correct. It would have been more clear worded as:

    • 64 sub 5 figure coins
    • 30 5+ figure coins
  • basetsbbasetsb Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm going to buy a coin which has eye appeal that I like regardless if it has a little sticker on it. Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection.

    At the recent PCGS show in New Orleans, the first dealer that I spoke to had nothing but PCGS CAC coins in his display box. I thought this was odd. All sorts of different types. I asked him if he liked CAC coins and he sarcastically told me absolutely not. He asked me what I thought about CAC and I told him that I understand the premium that they bring but in the end you have to buy coins that you like. This seemed like a foriegn concept to him. Of course, I could not afford a single coin in his box.

    I believe pretty soon we are going to start seeing more gimmicks added to slabs to try to increase the value of the plastic. I don't like that direction.

    @basetsb_coins on Instagram

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,347 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    That does not sound like a very healthy market to me, yet she does not think the market is weak. Go figure.

    Just because one dealer doesn't do any retail at one show does not mean that there are no longer any retail buyers in the market.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    That does not sound like a very healthy market to me, yet she does not think the market is weak. Go figure.

    Just because one dealer doesn't do any retail at one show does not mean that there are no longer any retail buyers in the market.

    Fair enough.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @basetsb said:
    I'm going to buy a coin which has eye appeal that I like regardless if it has a little sticker on it. Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection.

    At the recent PCGS show in New Orleans, the first dealer that I spoke to had nothing but PCGS CAC coins in his display box. I thought this was odd. All sorts of different types. I asked him if he liked CAC coins and he sarcastically told me absolutely not. He asked me what I thought about CAC and I told him that I understand the premium that they bring but in the end you have to buy coins that you like. This seemed like a foriegn concept to him. Of course, I could not afford a single coin in his box.

    I believe pretty soon we are going to start seeing more gimmicks added to slabs to try to increase the value of the plastic. I don't like that direction.

    The coin certification market is in its mature phase, and sellers are looking for any way they can spruce it up.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    The coin certification market is in its mature phase, and sellers are looking for any way they can spruce it up.

    There's a lot to contemplate in this sentence.

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