I'll buy the damn "C" coins!
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
All the conversation about the A and B coins. The C coins are just fine. A hundred or two hundred years old. Well preserved and each a piece of American history,
Let the snobs treat old coins like fine wine. I'll enjoy mine like a good cold beer.
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The important thing is if a "C" coin would be an "A" coin a grade or two down or if it would always be a "C" coin basically at any grade due to some other quality issue.
In the former I'd buy them at the right price the latter is a much bigger problem.
I wish you had more money to take all of the "C" coins off the market so that prices for the rest wouldn't be help back by the average and below average quality for the grade material.
Latin American Collection
I suspect that the community would have trouble identifying all the C coins for me to buy.
inconsistent grading seems to be a chronic dilemma.
I thought this was about Charlotte...Sometimes.
Boosibri is exactly right. As long as the coin is a "C" because of the plastic I can be a buyer if the price is right. But if a "C" because of the coin then you can have them all.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
Just show me the coin, I will make my decision.....Cheers, RickO
As a local dealer used to say: "The price is the grade." It's probably time for the prices asked on less than exceptional coins to be lowered ... and often lowered sharply.
I'll give them a Glicker sticker!
The Glicker sticker = "Guaranteed marginal...at best"
Latin American Collection
I agree. It's almost like there is no such thing as a bad coin, only a bad price.
That's always been the case. Every coin has a point where the price is great, regardless of the quality of the coin.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
As a collector, I have no interest in tying up capital into coins which are marginal to create an average but expansive collection. As a dealer or a flipper, I get the logic.
Latin American Collection
Maybe melt, but other than melt that's not true... just two days ago I passed on an 1869 $1 Gold PCGS AU58 at $640, that's a great price and frankly I would have passed at $500. I've done this countless times and I'm sure others have as well.
Here is a "C" coin. In it's infinite wisdom NGC graded this 1885 gold dollar "MS-66."
It is equal to the current standard for MS-65. This coin is sitting in my collection because the retail department at Heritage had an asking price that was equal to MS-65 Gray Sheet bid.
Of course the current standard for MS-65 lower than it was several years ago. Here is an 1880 gold dollar that is a "yesteryear" MS-65. This coin would be a good crack-out candidate, and I paid crack-out like money for it. Yesterday's MS-65 for gold dollars from the 1880s is now today's MS-66 or 67.
And here is a current MS-65.
I am not the only one who as observed this. A dealer, whose opinion I respect told the same thing, before I said to him that I agreed with him.
And here is an MS-67. Yes the folks from ATS graded it, but it rated a green CAC sticker, so I think i'm right when I say that the grade is "dead on."
I was a C student, by the way. It didn't bother me as much as it did my mother.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The whole A coin / C coin thing is pointless without a baseline or control and I see different people take different definitions into the debate so I don't know what they hope to get out of it.
Are grades simply a quantification of approximate value and people are trying to get the most value for their dollar
(Or)
Are grades a empirical declaration of preservation from new backed up with measurable criteria and people are simply trying to get the closest to new in the grade range
(Or)
Are grades a subjective proclamation based on a fluid and weighted combination of eye appeal, preservation, lquidity, manufacturing quality and originality all summarized with an outdated numbering system that stretches over a hundred years and two hundred different interpretations of said system.
Considering we can't all agree on which one of those we are starting at, i fail to see how we can grade the degrees in between.
I personally rate;
Luster
Originally
Eye appeal
Preservation
And look for the best combo of that vs the market average of the issue I am seeking with an eye towards liquidity/avg sale price in case I need to back out of the coin or trade up. I take this posture as a set builder as I am looking for specific dates/die pairs/mm's and finding a coin can be as hard as finding the right coin. I often buy a good enough example (C?) until the "right" one (C+
) comes along and have a few good enough coins in my set. I simply rather have it complete. If I was a type guy or a build it with only quality and see what shapes up I see the logic of nothing but the best.
I do get the nuance that there are a bunch of C collectors who think they should only buy A coins even though they don't know what that is. Those guys will be in for a shock one day when they realize/are told there are C quality PCGS cac coins vs A quality PCGS cac coins.
Buy coins you enjoy for the love of the hobby, quality only matters during resale. The sad core truth is the hobby is rabidly becoming focused on resale as the dealer to collector ratio becomes skewed and the price of entry rises.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Dave Bowers wrote in his “Coin World” column a few weeks ago that collectors should buy the coins they enjoy and not get hung up on the grades. The sad part is the grade has a lot to do with the price when you get prices from most dealers. They don’t usually discount the low end for the grade coins unless they are blowing them off to other dealers. If you ignore the “real grade” you can get financially buried into a lot of stuff before you know it.
Educate me...are we now calling "widgets" - "C" coins ???? Or am I ,missing something ???
WS
Yes, you are missing something. "C coins" are pieces that expert graders perceive as “low end” for the given grade on the certification holder. It has nothing to do with rarity or availability, which is what the “widget” thing is all about. There are “A” grade widgets and “C” grade widgets.
If a coin that might be perceived as an MS-64 is in an MS-64 coin, that’s a “B” coin. If it is really nice for the grade and looks like it might deserve at least a + or the next grade up, It’s an “A” coin. If looks like it barely made the grade or might be more deserving of an MS-63 or lower, It’s a “C” coin.
If you're a long term holder, the number on the slab is almost irrelevant. Focus on the coin and decide if it works for you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Exactly ... you reinforced my point. For you that price point may be melt, but not for everyone. There is point where you would buy that 1869 $1 Gold in PCGS-58. You would pass at $500 ... but would you pass at $400 ... $300 ... ?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I buy C coins...and even F coins. And then put them in the holder where I agree with the grade.
FWIW, "C" coins rarely seem like bargains when you focus on the coin, even when they're steeply discounted. Still too much value in the plastic.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Agreed. It's usually only worthwhile doing this when something is incredibly rare and you can manage to justify the price mentality. I did it for my 1857 seated dollar (C) - the value was right there. I also did it for the 1859-S (F) and definitely overpaid. But it's the finest by a grade and a half so whatareyagonnado?
C - not quite nice enough for the grade for my collection
F - nice coin but who the heck got it in that holder?
I'll buy Any coin, at the right price.
Unfortunately, very few dealers these days will sell them at my right price, whether the quality for "the grade" is A, B, C or Z.
I haven't bought a coin in over a year
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You need C coins to appreciate A & B coins.
I value eye appeal the most.
I can't buy C coins.
I only look for A+ coins but will buy A and B coins if the price is right.
Sig line still applies for me after all these years.
This 1851-O gold dollar is a PCGS MS-63. It is an "official C coin" because it flunked at CAC. I know that because the dealer who had it, had that marked on his reverse sticker. He thought so much of it that he cracked it out to try for an MS-64. Obviously, it didn't make it, and even flunked out of the University of CAC. I guess she was too much of a “party girl …”
I bought it because the price was competitive, but not cheap (i.e. more than Gray Sheet) because I thought the she was smooth and attractive for the MS-63 grade.
Unfortunately, this is so true. LOL.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Really F coins? I shudder to think what your scale would mean applied to my set. Can one have Q coins?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
From the Market Report thread, it seems like a C coin could be a C coin at any level. Just like a gold bean can be a B coin at a higher level (and current level), not an A+ or even an A coin at the current level.
There's a lot to stay up to speed on in collecting these days.
That is the point that Boosibri brought up earlier. Here is a 1851-o B+ or A- coin in non-market preferred plastic (which should call into question if it is really possible to be an A). On what planet does a CAC sticker make it in the same conversation as Bill's coin. Ok maybe bill's should be a MS62 due to muted luster but a nice MS62 vs a tweener XF-AU isn't even a fair comparison.
The whole A coin, B coin to me comes down to liquidity and eye appeal. Eye appealing coins missing the "Ya buts" of problems are easier to sell. Incorrect plastic or unstated problems count as "ya buts". One should avoid "Ya buts" and try not to get buried in coins by over paying. All of that actually comes back to knowing how to grade and being able to rank coins in your head while identifying problems. TPGs can help get you started with an opinion but that shouldn't give you a pass from forming your own educated opinion.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
As long as a coin isn't doctored, there is a smooth continuum of quality. The problem is that we try to fit that round peg into our square hole of grades and prices. Yes, a round peg fits but it looks like crap. The open spaces around the corners are what you want to avoid and emphasize....the plastic value area. On the coins that you want to avoid, the plastic value is hugely positive. On the coins you want to emphasize, the plastic value is hugely negative.
That is why Legend emphasizes A coins...in our opinion there is residual value to the collector when one buys negative value plastic.
An even greater challenge is to buy a coin with a "C" mintmark that isn't a "C" coin.
****> @tradedollarnut said:
that should be a mandatory lesson for all collectors.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
C coins would fit more in the dre
I recall receiving my first Ebay coin purchase in the mail in 2001. It was a common Morgan in a PCGS MS64 holder. Coin was splendid and it wasn't micro graded.
I thought "widget" denoted ownership, not grade.
A, B or C. I just have to like it.
Resurrecting an old thread because I can't find the one I was reading yesterday where the poster was postulating that the green beans were for the ..B.. coins.
Holy brockage, Batman..... if that doesn't tell you all you need to know about how capricious and misunderstood the whole CAC madness is, then nothing would.
Green =B huh?
Then all the folderol about green indicating "solid for grade" is pure wrong.
So that says that all ...A... coins should be GOLD beaned.?
Even though I have adopted the BUY STICKERS * mantra for NEW purchases, I still maintain that this entire concept will prove to be bad for the "hobby" of coin collecting.
So little information; so much hoopla.
*
Buy already stickered coins but not unless the premium has been discarded
I just can't do C coins. I strive for A coins but sometimes go for a B coin is it is unique with enough eye appeal to satisfy me.
How do you (except by YOUR eye) identify that C coin?
And don't you think that green should mean BOTH A&B ?
all the talk of A-B-C is pointless if you're just trying to find nice stuff at a price that makes sense, especially when you need someone/thing to evaluate it for you and establish a price. for the majority of the stuff I try to collect the A-B-C thing is irrelevant because of "R" numbers: when less than 75 of something exists I don't get worked up about where it fits within a grade, I'm mainly grateful to have found it and own it...........................for a while.
Just think, a “C” Coin one grade down would probably be an “A+” coin!
One "C" coin I like
Latin American Collection
If I recall correctly, an "E" Ticket trumps an "A" or "B" ticket so "C" at least gets you closer to an "E."
E tickets are an all day ride aren't they?
They may have morphed into that, but I suspect initially they were for the best rides on a ticket by ticket basis. It will be interesting to hear others chime in on their recollection as I was just much younger back in the day when "E" Tickets ruled Disneyland.
Edited to add:
OK, just confirmed that the "E" Ticket, or more accurately, "E" coupon was good only for a single ride. It was in use up until 1982. (Source Wikipedia):
"In June 1959, amid the completion of Disneyland's first major expansion, Disney introduced the "E" designation for the park's most popular attractions and made the new Submarine Voyage, Matterhorn Bobsleds, and Disneyland–Alweg Monorail "E" coupon attractions. Additionally, the Santa Fe & Disneyland Railroad, Rocket to the Moon, Rainbow Ridge Pack Mules, Rainbow Mountain Stage Coaches, Mark Twain Riverboat, Sailing Ship Columbia, Rafts to Tom Sawyer Island, and Jungle Cruise – all previously "D" rides – were upgraded to "E".[1] "E" remained the highest attraction/coupon designation for over 20 years."
Apparently the opening of "Magic Mountain" with a pass for all rides put pressure on Disneyland to follow suit.