Explain please the 1881-S MS68 CAC example that sold for Under $3900 late last year. Has the little green sticker suddenly become a doubler only in the last 6 months? That would be even more worrisome.
I suspect that the $9700 coin was seen as a possible moon money MS69. The green CAC may in that case have been a detriment to the realized price.
Perhaps the values did go up in the last 6 months. At Central States, dealers were offering me 1/2 of bid on non CAC coins and when it was all done, the only coins I sold there were CAC coins, and I got my price, even from the dealers.
@Coinstartled said:
Wabbit, what was the series that was attracting only half of bid offers?
Higher end Peace dollars. With the sticker, I sold every one at bid or a touch higher on the blast white ones. Obviously I came home with the non CAC coins. Many dealers it seems were looking at auctions and the dealer to dealer site and not believing the greysheet, outside of CAC coins.
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater. Just don't think bid is anything special.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan... But a Monroe Commem is a different story.
I beg to differ. The last HA PCGS 1881-S MS-68 Morgan WITHOUT CAC sold for $4347.50. The same date/grade WITH CAC sold for $9693.75. Do you think it was worth the $12.50 for that sticker on this date?
Seems that we can just agree to disagree on several points.
The differences in the two 1881-s examples may not be in the CAC sticker but in the look of the two coins. Without a doubt, the CAC coin is the better coin. Whether it is the CAC sticker or the difference in the appearances of the coins is the factor remains to be seen. I stand by my previous comment that I would not consider either coin at their respective prices. To the extent others see value with these coins... Well... That's terrific and what makes markets work; and
While auctions are often used to measure value for coins, what is often missing in that evaluation is the auction house, venue, images combined with buzz, participants and how badly two people want the coin. Theses factors are not consistent so auction results merely capture and record the sales prices at that point in time... Nothing more and nothing less.
As for my coins, I have no fear of CAC or rejection, it's just that I doubt they share my interests.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@stman said:
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater. Just don't think bid is anything special.
Take out the auction fees and getting crisp 100 dollar bills in your palm, on the spot, is very good in this market.
@stman said:
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater. Just don't think bid is anything special.
Take out the auction fees and getting crisp 100 dollar bills in your palm, on the spot, is very good in this market.
Ok, I am new at this. Thanks for the market advice.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@telephoto1 said:
I was hoping there would be a choice stating "I think it's ludicrous to pay for a TPG opinion and then pay again for someone else's opinion of that opinion"...
Or to pay the same TPG [in some cases many times] to re-opine about their first opinion?
@stman said:
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater. Just don't think bid is anything special.
Take out the auction fees and getting crisp 100 dollar bills in your palm, on the spot, is very good in this market.
Ok, I am new at this. Thanks for the market advice.
You would rather get bid minus the buyers and sellers fees at Heritage, waiting 2 months from start to finish? Have at it. I'll take cash in hand, no fees. I am not taking drop dead toners here, so cash bid is something to brag about.
@stman said:
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater. Just don't think bid is anything special.
Take out the auction fees and getting crisp 100 dollar bills in your palm, on the spot, is very good in this market.
Ok, I am new at this. Thanks for the market advice.
You would rather get bid minus the buyers and sellers fees at Heritage, waiting 2 months from start to finish? Have at it. I'll take cash in hand, no fees. I am not taking drop dead toners here, so cash bid is something to brag about.
If you say so. I would think with the sticker and being high end bid would be an embarrassment for me. Who said anything about auction or Heritage. I can do better and do all the time by driving in town. Stickers and no stickers.
Seriously, were the 100.00 bills really crisp...... or you just trying to make it sound better?
Only reason I finally commented on this big bid cac transaction is I believe you have mentioned it more than once on here.
Carry on.:)
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Seriously, were the 100.00 bills really crisp...... or you just trying to make it sound better?
Only reason I finally commented on this big bid cac transaction is I believe you have mentioned it more than once on here.
Carry on.:)
@BillDugan1959 said:
Still don't understand where the OP thought he was taking all this.
OP had some agenda here, unclear.
Lots of collectibles markets are weak-ish today, but IMHO CAC has a great eye for coins.
Well, I....thought.... I was taking it where I was curious.
It just seemed to ....ME ...that there was FAR less emphasis on the stickers amongst the dealers ...I....... trade with.
I consigned 20 coins to Legend that sold in their last auction. Most were stickered. I also marketed them on the BST to garner extra exposure to my coins in the auction. I stated if anyone had any questions to PM or email me. I got tons of questions. Most were concerning the non CAC coins and asking if they were sent to CAC and why they didn't pass. A lot of these same questions were from experienced collectors. My non CAC coins which were aesthetically off the charts got punished. My all there aesthetically off the charts CAC stickered commems set records for their grades.
The CAC coins overall exceeded my expectations by 40%. The non CAC coins under performed ny expectations by 20%.
I just experienced this first hand and that is why I answered interest in CAC is not waning. BTW dealing with Legend Auctions was one of the most pleasurable experiences Ive ever had auction wise and I've dealt with car, sports collectibles, art and wine heavyweights. I also got a healthy healthy split of the pie concerning buyers premiums. We were practically partners on the buyers premium. Highly recommended.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillDugan1959 said:
Still don't understand where the OP thought he was taking all this.
OP had some agenda here, unclear.
Lots of collectibles markets are weak-ish today, but IMHO CAC has a great eye for coins.
If you read the OP's statement accompanying his poll, he seems to be lamenting the lack of new threads here about the CAC topic and possibly taking that as a lack of interest in the topic.
Maybe it's as simple as the topic has been beaten to death with 857 billy clubs and there isn't much more to say about it.
I bet JA or HRH or Willis could probly start some doozy threads about it.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Same auction, 2 coins same grade, one sells for double and happens to have a CAC sticker. I have seen the same thing with my own coins. All the best to those who want to save the 12 bucks on their expensive coins.
The CAC coin happens to be clearly superior which is the point. Even w/o a CAC sticker I'd expect a MS68 that nice to bring very high end money....and much more than any typical MS68 CAC specimen. Someone will pay the $6K-$9K with or w/o a sticker, especially if someone is thinking a MS68+ grade....and a $15K price tag....$30K if it's 68+ PL. Actually, that's how that coin should be graded...MS68+. And it's also the case here that the $9K coin is semi-PL, if not borderline PL. The other coin was just frosty. Getting 68's with nearly PL or PL coins is very difficult....another avenue to upside potential. Potential upside seems to outweigh $2K-$3K in downside. If someone gets a 68+ on this one, it was a rip at $9K.
Heritage examples show a CAC price range of approx $3500-$6500 with $4500-$5500 being the norm. The one that fetched $9K did so for reasons not related to CAC (shot upgrade, PL, etc.) . 1881-S's in MS68 PL are pretty rare - only up to 5 graded at PCGS. Anything nicer will probably cost over $20K. If someone thinks these are common, or easy to get, they're only fooling themselves. With approx 500 legitimate MS68 common date "type" coin Morgans out there in the $3K-$5K range (the NGC coins can represent the 100% resubmissions over 30 yrs), and only 50% of those stickered (250), and then only approx 10% of those being PL (25), that's not a lot of coins.
@Justacommeman said:
I consigned 20 coins to Legend that sold in their last auction. Most were stickered. I also marketed them on the BST to garner extra exposure to my coins in the auction. I stated if anyone had any questions to PM or email me. I got tons of questions. Most were concerning the non CAC coins and asking if they were sent to CAC and why they didn't pass. A lot of these same questions were from experienced collectors. My non CAC coins which were aesthetically off the charts got punished. My all there aesthetically off the charts CAC stickered commems set records for their grades.
The CAC coins overall exceeded my expectations by 40%. The non CAC coins under performed ny expectations by 20%.
I just experienced this first hand and that is why I answered interest in CAC is not waning. BTW dealing with Legend Auctions was one of the most pleasurable experiences Ive ever had auction wise and I've dealt with car, sports collectibles, art and wine heavyweights. I also got a healthy healthy split of the pie concerning buyers premiums. We were practically partners on the buyers premium. Highly recommended.
mark
Personal opinions of CAC aside...I think auction results (like those shared by @Justacommeman above) show that CAC approved coins bring more money than comparable non-CAC approved coins. I continually see this in auction results regardless of venue and prices on dealer's websites...so, to answer the question in the OP, no, I do not think 'interest' in CAC is waning.
Now "should" CAC approved coins bring more...well, that's a whole different question.
@Justacommeman said:
I consigned 20 coins to Legend that sold in their last auction. Most were stickered. I also marketed them on the BST to garner extra exposure to my coins in the auction. I stated if anyone had any questions to PM or email me. I got tons of questions. Most were concerning the non CAC coins and asking if they were sent to CAC and why they didn't pass. A lot of these same questions were from experienced collectors. My non CAC coins which were aesthetically off the charts got punished. My all there aesthetically off the charts CAC stickered commems set records for their grades.
The CAC coins overall exceeded my expectations by 40%. The non CAC coins under performed ny expectations by 20%.
I just experienced this first hand and that is why I answered interest in CAC is not waning. BTW dealing with Legend Auctions was one of the most pleasurable experiences Ive ever had auction wise and I've dealt with car, sports collectibles, art and wine heavyweights. I also got a healthy healthy split of the pie concerning buyers premiums. We were practically partners on the buyers premium. Highly recommended.
mark
The lesson I would take from this is don't consign any non CAC coins to a Legend auction. Legend has trained their clients to purchase only CAC approved material. Therefore it is not surprising that those coins would get disappointing bids. You should not expect to bring you Ford to the Chevy fan club and expect to get applause.
Perhaps you should consign you CAC rejects to Heritage. I've bid on many non CAC coins there and have consistently been out bid by wide margins or have had to pay premium prices.
I don't think one man should have the power to condemn large segments of the coin market because he does not care for a given coin, or because he wants to control the number of pieces that are on the market with his approval on them at a given time. You don't care for that opinion, but I am entitled to my point of view just as you are entitled to yours. You will not brow beat me into supporting your point of view just as I shall never succeed in changing you mind.
Legend and I are on different pages. They generally favor high grade coins with CAC stickers with a lesser concern for rarity. I look for collector grade coins, mostly in the AU to low end Mint State grades, with eye appeal, with or without CAC stickers. I buy the rarities if I need them for the sets I want to finish. Most of the rarities in high grade are beyond my ability to pay, but I stick to buying pieces with eye appeal. That might be a dumb strategy, but I am enjoying the hobby, that's how it should be.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Legend Auctions offer a wide pool of rarities and high grade coins period. Lots of coins aren't stickered in their auctions. They got my entire cosignment because of their generous terms. You have to look at the cosignment at a total and not coin by coin. Some will surprise to the upside and some will disappoint. FWIW I've never submitted to CAC so I wouldn't have known the "rejects" prior to the cosignment.
FYI I was anti CAC at one point. I guess I'm still able to be able to change my mind when obvious slaps me in the face. Good for you that once your mind is made up you don't ever change your mind. Keep those heels dug in no matter what. I hope I never reach the point where My mind can't be changed.
The coins that JA rejects don't mean they don't meet the grade. You should know that by now. That points gets lost on a lot of people still.
I enjoy the heck out of the hobby. It's exactly that to me.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@tradedollarnut said:
To be fair, Bill has indeed changed his mind recently. He stated that he thinks NGC is not doing so well lately whereas before he was quite the fan.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
I stand corrected : )
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@SullivanNumismatics said:
With mint errors (pretty much all I deal in) coins are collected based on demand for the error type, rarity and last of all, grade (also, grading standards for mint errors are much looser than they are for "regular" U.S. coins.) Error collectors are concerned about the coin, not it's grade. They are more "coin collectors" than they are "grade collectors."
This approach actually makes a lot of sense for collectors who are collecting U.S. coins. Within any given coin series, a coin's rarity should be the primary concern, and the "grade rarity", should not matter that much beyond perhaps 3 tiers of mintstate (MS-60, MS-65 and MS-70), with prices reasonably reflective of those grades, but not of that much concern. Things like surface quality, ugly toning/spotting, distracting marks, strike, etc should be more concerning to collectors than a numeric grade number.
Grading standards for mintstate coins are unstable and changing, and are actually very hard to even define, so why is everyone buying based on this unstable "grade system" of collecting? People seem to be "grade collecting", when they should be "coin collecting."
These thoughts perfectly sum up why I voted "Don't care" in the poll.
@tradedollarnut said:
To be fair, Bill has indeed changed his mind recently. He stated that he thinks NGC is not doing so well lately whereas before he was quite the fan.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
I have never been "an NGC fan." My position has been that it is in the consumers' interest to have two viable major grading companies competing with each other to keep both on their toes. In the past I had written that PCGS was slightly more conservative than NGC. At times I did something I usually avoid; I occasionally pulled my punches in my comments about some NGC graded coins.
My attitude changed when NGC published that letter about how PCGS had lowered their standards to the point where NGC could no longer accept PCGS coins in their registry. That was just an excuse NGC used to justify changing their market strategy. Yes, Ms. Laura, I felt betrayed because I had enjoyed using the NGC registry to educate collectors and show off my collection. Now that option was severely restricted because I would be limited to NGC graded coins in the future. I would have accepted the situation if NGC had allowed PCGS coins in their registry with no points, but they didn't do that. I found that unacceptable, and so I took the gloves off. I will no longer pull my punches.
The PCGS product is better than the NGC product in many cases. Part of that is due to crossovers which move the best NGC coins to PCGS holders, but on average PCGS grading is more conservative than NGC grading. I will not stop considering NGC coins for purchase, but in the future my preference will be toward PCGS graded coins.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
buying any coin today with out a cac sticker is a crap shoot. every major auction house sends the majority of coins to cac for one simple reason-they will get more money. that clearly answers how strong demand is. any dealer worth their salt will send coins to cac as well. again, more money. so if a coin flunks-obviously there is a reason. would you really want to own that coin? I will only buy no cac beans if its a grading issue. sadly when coin doctoring was rampant, many bad coins got in to holders. today cac helps insure you that you are not buying one of those.
calling rick snow a better numismatist than JA? ridiculous. Rick knows his indians as good as anyone. JA knows many more fields-and was a founder of PCGS. in the biz today, there are less then 10 graders as sharp as JA-and none of them are known to the public.
to close, cac is still extremely demanded. auctions house would not just send their coins in. you walk a bourse floor dealers will tell they wish they had more cac coins to sell. check any auction, any pcgs cac coin always brings far more then a non cac-unless it is a 50 year old fresh collection never sent in.
its okay if you are offended or do not like cac-just do not state false facts about itt
@tradedollarnut said:
To be fair, Bill has indeed changed his mind recently. He stated that he thinks NGC is not doing so well lately whereas before he was quite the fan.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
I have never been "an NGC fan." My position has been that it is in the consumers' interest to have two viable major grading companies competing with each other to keep both on their toes. In the past I had written that PCGS was slightly more conservative than NGC. At times I did something I usually avoid; I occasionally pulled my punches in my comments about some NGC graded coins.
My attitude changed when NGC published that letter about how PCGS had lowered their standards to the point where NGC could no longer accept PCGS coins in their registry. That was just an excuse NGC used to justify changing their market strategy. Yes, Ms. Laura, I felt betrayed because I had enjoyed using the NGC registry to educate collectors and show off my collection. Now that option was severely restricted because I would be limited to NGC graded coins in the future. I would have accepted the situation if NGC had allowed PCGS coins in their registry with no points, but they didn't do that. I found that unacceptable, and so I took the gloves off. I will no longer pull my punches.
The PCGS product is better than the NGC product in many cases. Part of that is due to crossovers which move the best NGC coins to PCGS holders, but on average PCGS grading is more conservative than NGC grading. I will not stop considering NGC coins for purchase, but in the future my preference will be toward PCGS graded coins.
@tradedollarnut said:
To be fair, Bill has indeed changed his mind recently. He stated that he thinks NGC is not doing so well lately whereas before he was quite the fan.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
I have never been "an NGC fan." My position has been that it is in the consumers' interest to have two viable major grading companies competing with each other to keep both on their toes. In the past I had written that PCGS was slightly more conservative than NGC. At times I did something I usually avoid; I occasionally pulled my punches in my comments about some NGC graded coins.
My attitude changed when NGC published that letter about how PCGS had lowered their standards to the point where NGC could no longer accept PCGS coins in their registry. That was just an excuse NGC used to justify changing their market strategy. Yes, Ms. Laura, I felt betrayed because I had enjoyed using the NGC registry to educate collectors and show off my collection. Now that option was severely restricted because I would be limited to NGC graded coins in the future. I would have accepted the situation if NGC had allowed PCGS coins in their registry with no points, but they didn't do that. I found that unacceptable, and so I took the gloves off. I will no longer pull my punches.
The PCGS product is better than the NGC product in many cases. Part of that is due to crossovers which move the best NGC coins to PCGS holders, but on average PCGS grading is more conservative than NGC grading. I will not stop considering NGC coins for purchase, but in the future my preference will be toward PCGS graded coins.
Shirley you jest...and don't call me Laura!
In one of her Legend essays, Laura made reference to an NGC registry participant who felt "betrayed" over the NGC decision to stop taking PCGS coins into its registry. I was quite sure that she was responding to my posts ATS where I used that term after the NGC broadcast its letter. NGC has made its decision, I have made mine.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
buying any coin today with out a cac sticker is a crap shoot. every major auction house sends the majority of coins to cac for one simple reason-they will get more money.
And to think, I've been bidding on "Junk coins" all this time and didn't know. What amazes me is that these coins sell for strong prices without the all important CAC endorsement. That is truly amazing. One would think that I would pick up a bargain now and then, but it has not happened for a long time.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I entered numismatics about 15 years ago. The way advertised to make free money was in cracking out coins and submitting them for hopefully higher grades. Crossing from NGC to PCGS, if successful, was also a means of turning a thousand dollar coin into a $1500 or $2000 coin.
Of course the coin remained the same but the perception of worth increased as the grade number changed.
The numbers in the pops also changed. My initial series was Washington Quarters. In MS 67, pops tripled or quadrupled over a decade. Prices dropped in similar proportions.
The free money became less available by cracking out coins. Alas, a new method was needed. There will always be collectors in the hobby like Bill Jones and Topstuf that love the coins first and worry much less about flipping for a fast buck....way less.
Others see numismatics as a frothy investment opportunity that has more luster than equities, but with similar potential. The gold sticker is way more important to them than any R8 variety that they could possibly score.
@coinkat said:
No... But I think there needs to be some perspective. Not all coins need this and I remain stunned into near silence as to the number of collectors that see the need for those lower valued coins and those that just do not have a significant spread. I don't see the need for a CAC sticker on an 1881-s Morgan graded at MS66... But a Monroe Commem at that level is a different story.
I agree with your statement, but I'm guilty of having "cheap" coins graded and CAC'd in the 100-400 range.
I'm essentially paying to learn how to grade. Every time I send coins in to be graded, my estimated grades get more accurate and my results get better.
The same goes for CAC, it's a way to calibrate your grading eye. I have become good at identifying nice coins in my series and which gold coins have original surfaces and part of that is due to submitting to CAC...
Learning hands on is the best but most expensive way and I feel very confident grading my core series these days. Part of that is just looking at thousands of coins and some of it has to do with learning hat the market forces think and like.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
Yeah that would be great....lol. The market really doesn't care though. The majority of the problem is that the market is highly biased against NGC coins, even when stickered. If you don't mind taking a 10-35% hit on identical gem stickered type coins not in PCGS holders, that's fine. If you want want they should be worth, then you have to spend considerable time trying to cross them over. It can try your patience sending in a stickered pop top, finest known, finest graded coin 5X and still not get the cross at grade. Sadly, you either have to crack it or allow a cross at any grade. Then go from there. Nice NGC coins that were solid for the grade, did far better in the pre-CAC era. Baby tossed out with the bath water syndrome.
What CAC might consider is a customer service for them getting stickered NGC coins into same grade PCGS holders. I'd pay for that rather than trying to do it myself....if CAC can do it in far less submissions....and in less than 2-10 yrs. And they'd have a lot of coins to mix and match for appropriate submissions. It would be a like a Martin Paul auction submission from 1988 with 40-80 coins with a total value of up to $1 MILL.
I can't understand why most CAC supporters don't give the CAC approved NGC coins more credit. If you are not on the PCGS registry, what's wrong with an attractive, properly graded NGC product? You can frequently get the same quality coin for a lower price.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The free money became less available by cracking out coins. Alas, a new method was needed. There will always be collectors in the hobby like Bill Jones and Topstuf that love the coins first and worry much less about flipping for a fast buck....way less.
And yet, flip or no flip potential (I got my fill when I was in the shop ) I will still gravitate to a PCGS graded coin over NGC....UNLESS.... the NGC is overwhelmingly more appropriate for the "look" I prefer.
I will also gladly buy a CAC coin. The price for the hoop jumping has already been paid so I don't have to. No matter what my opinion is.
When I send anything to Great Collections, I leave it to their discretion whether to try for sticker or not.
I'm mainly a sideliner in the .......GAMES.
I do like a nice coin and appreciate a better "snag" to glom more dollars to assuage angst in numismatics.
@BillJones said:
I can't understand why most CAC supporters don't give the CAC approved NGC coins more credit. If you are not on the PCGS registry, what's wrong with an attractive, properly graded NGC product? You can frequently get the same quality coin for a lower price.
A place to start, would be to ask Legend. They stock almost no stickered NGC coins for their customers. The higher end coin market left the "buying the coin" realm back in late 2008. In order, it's now sticker, TPG plastic, grade, and then the coin itself. The order of priority and value determination pre-2008 was: coin, grade, TPG plastic.
@BillJones said:
I can't understand why most CAC supporters don't give the CAC approved NGC coins more credit. If you are not on the PCGS registry, what's wrong with an attractive, properly graded NGC product? You can frequently get the same quality coin for a lower price.
A place to start, would be to ask Legend. They stock almost no stickered NGC coins for their customers. The higher end coin market left the "buying the coin" realm back in late 2008. In order, it's now sticker, TPG plastic, grade, and then the coin itself. The order of priority and value determination pre-2008 was: coin, grade, TPG plastic.
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
@Davideo said:
I'm reminded of the saying: "Don't hate the player, hate the game"
John Albanese is the player and the game; they are inseparable. His image as the unassailable expert is the reason why CAC has been a success.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It's so amusing to me, the obsession with the grade number, the other letters like FH and PL, the brand of plastic, and the color of stickers.
As a relic in the hobby, for me, all that matters is the coin's appearance to my eyes, and the price. All the rest is data, to be sure, (other folks' opinions) but none of it is necessary, nor sufficient, to my purchase or sell decision.
It's so amusing to me, the obsession with the grade number, the other letters like FH and PL, the brand of plastic, and the color of stickers.
The trouble is it's this stuff that determines what you have pay for the coin and the amount for which you can sell it. Aside from Ricko I might be the purest collector around here, and I have to think about that stuff.
As a relic in the hobby, for me, all that matters is the coin's appearance to my eyes, and the price. All the rest is data, to be sure, (other folks' opinions) but none of it is necessary, nor sufficient, to my purchase or sell decision.
That matters for me too. If I don't like the coin, I won't buy it or bid on it. Even as a dealer I avoided the stuff I didn't like. About the only time I took was in trade to make a deal or to make a good customer happy.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Davideo said:
I'm reminded of the saying: "Don't hate the player, hate the game"
John Albanese is the player and the game; they are inseparable. His image as the unassailable expert is the reason why CAC has been a success.
The coin "game" of flipping coins, maximizing profit, etc. has been going on a lot of longer than CAC. JA just added another layer of complexity to it.
It seems the two best strategies are to ignore it, or maximize inefficiencies in the market, ie. play or not.
@Coinstartled said:
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.
Comments
Perhaps the values did go up in the last 6 months. At Central States, dealers were offering me 1/2 of bid on non CAC coins and when it was all done, the only coins I sold there were CAC coins, and I got my price, even from the dealers.
Wabbit, what was the series that was attracting only half of bid offers?
Higher end Peace dollars. With the sticker, I sold every one at bid or a touch higher on the blast white ones. Obviously I came home with the non CAC coins. Many dealers it seems were looking at auctions and the dealer to dealer site and not believing the greysheet, outside of CAC coins.
For myself I don't think I would boast about getting bid for stickered high end peace dollars. And before the crap starts I am not a hater.
Just don't think bid is anything special.
For the seller yes, buyer no.
Stepped out for awhile...
Seems that we can just agree to disagree on several points.
The differences in the two 1881-s examples may not be in the CAC sticker but in the look of the two coins. Without a doubt, the CAC coin is the better coin. Whether it is the CAC sticker or the difference in the appearances of the coins is the factor remains to be seen. I stand by my previous comment that I would not consider either coin at their respective prices. To the extent others see value with these coins... Well... That's terrific and what makes markets work; and
While auctions are often used to measure value for coins, what is often missing in that evaluation is the auction house, venue, images combined with buzz, participants and how badly two people want the coin. Theses factors are not consistent so auction results merely capture and record the sales prices at that point in time... Nothing more and nothing less.
As for my coins, I have no fear of CAC or rejection, it's just that I doubt they share my interests.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Take out the auction fees and getting crisp 100 dollar bills in your palm, on the spot, is very good in this market.
Ok, I am new at this. Thanks for the market advice.
Or to pay the same TPG [in some cases many times] to re-opine about their first opinion?
You would rather get bid minus the buyers and sellers fees at Heritage, waiting 2 months from start to finish? Have at it. I'll take cash in hand, no fees. I am not taking drop dead toners here, so cash bid is something to brag about.
Cloroxed PR64 1836 Gobrecht
But that approximates an "aged" look very well.
If you say so. I would think with the sticker and being high end bid would be an embarrassment for me. Who said anything about auction or Heritage. I can do better and do all the time by driving in town. Stickers and no stickers.
Seriously, were the 100.00 bills really crisp...... or you just trying to make it sound better?
Only reason I finally commented on this big bid cac transaction is I believe you have mentioned it more than once on here.
Carry on.:)
Still don't understand where the OP thought he was taking all this.
OP had some agenda here, unclear.
Lots of collectibles markets are weak-ish today, but IMHO CAC has a great eye for coins.
There were also slightly chilled.
Well, I....thought.... I was taking it where I was curious.
It just seemed to ....ME ...that there was FAR less emphasis on the stickers amongst the dealers ...I....... trade with.
And it sure ain't EVERYONE!
But.... my question is being answered.
like I intended to "take it."
Most loaded "polls" are anti-something.
Still not clear that you don't have a negative agenda.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
O.K. there, Sigmund.
"sometimes a banana is just a banana, Anna."
I consigned 20 coins to Legend that sold in their last auction. Most were stickered. I also marketed them on the BST to garner extra exposure to my coins in the auction. I stated if anyone had any questions to PM or email me. I got tons of questions. Most were concerning the non CAC coins and asking if they were sent to CAC and why they didn't pass. A lot of these same questions were from experienced collectors. My non CAC coins which were aesthetically off the charts got punished. My all there aesthetically off the charts CAC stickered commems set records for their grades.
The CAC coins overall exceeded my expectations by 40%. The non CAC coins under performed ny expectations by 20%.
I just experienced this first hand and that is why I answered interest in CAC is not waning. BTW dealing with Legend Auctions was one of the most pleasurable experiences Ive ever had auction wise and I've dealt with car, sports collectibles, art and wine heavyweights. I also got a healthy healthy split of the pie concerning buyers premiums. We were practically partners on the buyers premium. Highly recommended.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you read the OP's statement accompanying his poll, he seems to be lamenting the lack of new threads here about the CAC topic and possibly taking that as a lack of interest in the topic.
Maybe it's as simple as the topic has been beaten to death with 857 billy clubs and there isn't much more to say about it.
I bet JA or HRH or Willis could probly start some doozy threads about it.
The CAC coin happens to be clearly superior which is the point. Even w/o a CAC sticker I'd expect a MS68 that nice to bring very high end money....and much more than any typical MS68 CAC specimen. Someone will pay the $6K-$9K with or w/o a sticker, especially if someone is thinking a MS68+ grade....and a $15K price tag....$30K if it's 68+ PL. Actually, that's how that coin should be graded...MS68+. And it's also the case here that the $9K coin is semi-PL, if not borderline PL. The other coin was just frosty. Getting 68's with nearly PL or PL coins is very difficult....another avenue to upside potential. Potential upside seems to outweigh $2K-$3K in downside. If someone gets a 68+ on this one, it was a rip at $9K.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ne=46&N=51+790+231+382+76+3952+3997+1589&expand=Mint+Mark&ic4=Refine-MintMark-102615#expand-46
Heritage examples show a CAC price range of approx $3500-$6500 with $4500-$5500 being the norm. The one that fetched $9K did so for reasons not related to CAC (shot upgrade, PL, etc.) . 1881-S's in MS68 PL are pretty rare - only up to 5 graded at PCGS. Anything nicer will probably cost over $20K. If someone thinks these are common, or easy to get, they're only fooling themselves. With approx 500 legitimate MS68 common date "type" coin Morgans out there in the $3K-$5K range (the NGC coins can represent the 100% resubmissions over 30 yrs), and only 50% of those stickered (250), and then only approx 10% of those being PL (25), that's not a lot of coins.
Personal opinions of CAC aside...I think auction results (like those shared by @Justacommeman above) show that CAC approved coins bring more money than comparable non-CAC approved coins. I continually see this in auction results regardless of venue and prices on dealer's websites...so, to answer the question in the OP, no, I do not think 'interest' in CAC is waning.
Now "should" CAC approved coins bring more...well, that's a whole different question.
The lesson I would take from this is don't consign any non CAC coins to a Legend auction. Legend has trained their clients to purchase only CAC approved material. Therefore it is not surprising that those coins would get disappointing bids. You should not expect to bring you Ford to the Chevy fan club and expect to get applause.
Perhaps you should consign you CAC rejects to Heritage. I've bid on many non CAC coins there and have consistently been out bid by wide margins or have had to pay premium prices.
I don't think one man should have the power to condemn large segments of the coin market because he does not care for a given coin, or because he wants to control the number of pieces that are on the market with his approval on them at a given time. You don't care for that opinion, but I am entitled to my point of view just as you are entitled to yours. You will not brow beat me into supporting your point of view just as I shall never succeed in changing you mind.
Legend and I are on different pages. They generally favor high grade coins with CAC stickers with a lesser concern for rarity. I look for collector grade coins, mostly in the AU to low end Mint State grades, with eye appeal, with or without CAC stickers. I buy the rarities if I need them for the sets I want to finish. Most of the rarities in high grade are beyond my ability to pay, but I stick to buying pieces with eye appeal. That might be a dumb strategy, but I am enjoying the hobby, that's how it should be.
Legend Auctions offer a wide pool of rarities and high grade coins period. Lots of coins aren't stickered in their auctions. They got my entire cosignment because of their generous terms. You have to look at the cosignment at a total and not coin by coin. Some will surprise to the upside and some will disappoint. FWIW I've never submitted to CAC so I wouldn't have known the "rejects" prior to the cosignment.
FYI I was anti CAC at one point. I guess I'm still able to be able to change my mind when obvious slaps me in the face. Good for you that once your mind is made up you don't ever change your mind. Keep those heels dug in no matter what. I hope I never reach the point where My mind can't be changed.
The coins that JA rejects don't mean they don't meet the grade. You should know that by now. That points gets lost on a lot of people still.
I enjoy the heck out of the hobby. It's exactly that to me.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
To be fair, Bill has indeed changed his mind recently. He stated that he thinks NGC is not doing so well lately whereas before he was quite the fan.
If only there were some company to designate which of those graded NGC coins were good for the grade....
I stand corrected : )
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well I do get mad when I have a hard time scraping the beans off the coins I have that are stickered.
Grrrrrr.
I never seen anyone take the position you attribute to CAC supporters, not even Ankur.
These thoughts perfectly sum up why I voted "Don't care" in the poll.
I have never been "an NGC fan." My position has been that it is in the consumers' interest to have two viable major grading companies competing with each other to keep both on their toes. In the past I had written that PCGS was slightly more conservative than NGC. At times I did something I usually avoid; I occasionally pulled my punches in my comments about some NGC graded coins.
My attitude changed when NGC published that letter about how PCGS had lowered their standards to the point where NGC could no longer accept PCGS coins in their registry. That was just an excuse NGC used to justify changing their market strategy. Yes, Ms. Laura, I felt betrayed because I had enjoyed using the NGC registry to educate collectors and show off my collection. Now that option was severely restricted because I would be limited to NGC graded coins in the future. I would have accepted the situation if NGC had allowed PCGS coins in their registry with no points, but they didn't do that. I found that unacceptable, and so I took the gloves off. I will no longer pull my punches.
The PCGS product is better than the NGC product in many cases. Part of that is due to crossovers which move the best NGC coins to PCGS holders, but on average PCGS grading is more conservative than NGC grading. I will not stop considering NGC coins for purchase, but in the future my preference will be toward PCGS graded coins.
buying any coin today with out a cac sticker is a crap shoot. every major auction house sends the majority of coins to cac for one simple reason-they will get more money. that clearly answers how strong demand is. any dealer worth their salt will send coins to cac as well. again, more money. so if a coin flunks-obviously there is a reason. would you really want to own that coin? I will only buy no cac beans if its a grading issue. sadly when coin doctoring was rampant, many bad coins got in to holders. today cac helps insure you that you are not buying one of those.
calling rick snow a better numismatist than JA? ridiculous. Rick knows his indians as good as anyone. JA knows many more fields-and was a founder of PCGS. in the biz today, there are less then 10 graders as sharp as JA-and none of them are known to the public.
to close, cac is still extremely demanded. auctions house would not just send their coins in. you walk a bourse floor dealers will tell they wish they had more cac coins to sell. check any auction, any pcgs cac coin always brings far more then a non cac-unless it is a 50 year old fresh collection never sent in.
its okay if you are offended or do not like cac-just do not state false facts about itt
Shirley you jest...and don't call me Laura!
In one of her Legend essays, Laura made reference to an NGC registry participant who felt "betrayed" over the NGC decision to stop taking PCGS coins into its registry. I was quite sure that she was responding to my posts ATS where I used that term after the NGC broadcast its letter. NGC has made its decision, I have made mine.
And to think, I've been bidding on "Junk coins" all this time and didn't know. What amazes me is that these coins sell for strong prices without the all important CAC endorsement. That is truly amazing.
One would think that I would pick up a bargain now and then, but it has not happened for a long time.
I entered numismatics about 15 years ago. The way advertised to make free money was in cracking out coins and submitting them for hopefully higher grades. Crossing from NGC to PCGS, if successful, was also a means of turning a thousand dollar coin into a $1500 or $2000 coin.
Of course the coin remained the same but the perception of worth increased as the grade number changed.
The numbers in the pops also changed. My initial series was Washington Quarters. In MS 67, pops tripled or quadrupled over a decade. Prices dropped in similar proportions.
The free money became less available by cracking out coins. Alas, a new method was needed. There will always be collectors in the hobby like Bill Jones and Topstuf that love the coins first and worry much less about flipping for a fast buck....way less.
Others see numismatics as a frothy investment opportunity that has more luster than equities, but with similar potential. The gold sticker is way more important to them than any R8 variety that they could possibly score.
I agree with your statement, but I'm guilty of having "cheap" coins graded and CAC'd in the 100-400 range.
I'm essentially paying to learn how to grade. Every time I send coins in to be graded, my estimated grades get more accurate and my results get better.
The same goes for CAC, it's a way to calibrate your grading eye. I have become good at identifying nice coins in my series and which gold coins have original surfaces and part of that is due to submitting to CAC...
Learning hands on is the best but most expensive way and I feel very confident grading my core series these days. Part of that is just looking at thousands of coins and some of it has to do with learning hat the market forces think and like.
Yeah that would be great....lol. The market really doesn't care though. The majority of the problem is that the market is highly biased against NGC coins, even when stickered. If you don't mind taking a 10-35% hit on identical gem stickered type coins not in PCGS holders, that's fine. If you want want they should be worth, then you have to spend considerable time trying to cross them over. It can try your patience sending in a stickered pop top, finest known, finest graded coin 5X and still not get the cross at grade. Sadly, you either have to crack it or allow a cross at any grade. Then go from there. Nice NGC coins that were solid for the grade, did far better in the pre-CAC era. Baby tossed out with the bath water syndrome.
What CAC might consider is a customer service for them getting stickered NGC coins into same grade PCGS holders. I'd pay for that rather than trying to do it myself....if CAC can do it in far less submissions....and in less than 2-10 yrs. And they'd have a lot of coins to mix and match for appropriate submissions. It would be a like a Martin Paul auction submission from 1988 with 40-80 coins with a total value of up to $1 MILL.
I can't understand why most CAC supporters don't give the CAC approved NGC coins more credit. If you are not on the PCGS registry, what's wrong with an attractive, properly graded NGC product? You can frequently get the same quality coin for a lower price.
And yet, flip or no flip potential (I got my fill when I was in the shop
) I will still gravitate to a PCGS graded coin over NGC....UNLESS.... the NGC is overwhelmingly more appropriate for the "look" I prefer.
I will also gladly buy a CAC coin. The price for the hoop jumping has already been paid so I don't have to. No matter what my opinion is.
When I send anything to Great Collections, I leave it to their discretion whether to try for sticker or not.
I'm mainly a sideliner in the .......GAMES.
I do like a nice coin and appreciate a better "snag" to glom more dollars to assuage angst in numismatics.
A place to start, would be to ask Legend. They stock almost no stickered NGC coins for their customers. The higher end coin market left the "buying the coin" realm back in late 2008. In order, it's now sticker, TPG plastic, grade, and then the coin itself. The order of priority and value determination pre-2008 was: coin, grade, TPG plastic.
Laura often regaled in her Wannabe Dealer rants of a dozen years ago that the real mavens could attend Stack's auctions of high end raw coins with confidence. The wannabes would fail.
In 2017 it seems only John Albanese and Rick Snow are now qualified.
I'm reminded of the saying: "Don't hate the player, hate the game"
I don't hate either. Just seems narrow minded to invest the entire upper tier of the hobby into a single set of hands.
John Albanese is the player and the game; they are inseparable. His image as the unassailable expert is the reason why CAC has been a success.
Is John the only one who says yea or nea at CAC?????
What happens when he is no longer able to do so?
It's so amusing to me, the obsession with the grade number, the other letters like FH and PL, the brand of plastic, and the color of stickers.
As a relic in the hobby, for me, all that matters is the coin's appearance to my eyes, and the price. All the rest is data, to be sure, (other folks' opinions) but none of it is necessary, nor sufficient, to my purchase or sell decision.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The trouble is it's this stuff that determines what you have pay for the coin and the amount for which you can sell it. Aside from Ricko I might be the purest collector around here, and I have to think about that stuff.
That matters for me too. If I don't like the coin, I won't buy it or bid on it. Even as a dealer I avoided the stuff I didn't like. About the only time I took was in trade to make a deal or to make a good customer happy.
The coin "game" of flipping coins, maximizing profit, etc. has been going on a lot of longer than CAC. JA just added another layer of complexity to it.
It seems the two best strategies are to ignore it, or maximize inefficiencies in the market, ie. play or not.
Well, in a sense, that's true. Because those are 2 of the most well known players applying stickers to coins that get very widespread approval. And now that stickers rate as probably the #1 item to rate/value a higher dollar coin, everyone else that doesn't have direct control of sticker assingment....is in a sense, a wannabe. No amount of bidding on raw coins at a major auction past, present, or future, can give you a top rated sticker business. In looking back 10 yrs, it is surprising that this is where we've ended up. The coin is still important....though only after CAC and the TPG plastic in 90-95% of examples.