How did the ridiculous grade allowances for CC Morgans ever start?

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topstuf
topstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

I don't think I'll ever...understand...how Morgans can be so liberally graded just because they are Carson City coins.
If there are few nice and unmarked ones, then why didn't they just not grade the inferior gouged, scratched, beat-up ones as what they would grade compared to any other mint?

This is something I live with but don't like or understand.
I even think the whole series would be far differently collected if this "standard" were the same as other dollars.

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  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD
    3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
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  • Coinstartled
    Coinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    You want to argue with this guy?

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @topstuf said:
    I don't think I'll ever...understand...how Morgans can be so liberally graded just because they are Carson City coins.
    If there are few nice and unmarked ones, then why didn't they just not grade the inferior gouged, scratched, beat-up ones as what they would grade compared to any other mint?

    This is something I live with but don't like or understand.
    I even think the whole series would be far differently collected if this "standard" were the same as other dollars.

    They shouldn't be. When I was grading we graded by the series, not by the date and mint mark.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • BruceS
    BruceS Posts: 1,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

    I would rather have a snow shovel instead of the spade and would work on the over flow. How many do you think you could get? I would love to find out.

    eBay ID-bruceshort978
    Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager, blu62vette, morgan13, torinoCobra71, JWP, promethius88,
  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,938 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    As long as there have been coin dealers. Back in the 1960s, when I started, it was called "the chestnut grading system." The rarer the coin is, but lower the grading standards. The truth is, you pay higher prices for rarity; you don't pay it for lose grades. That is the way it should be.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2
    Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think a lot of + is given for the frosty, blast white luster because it raises the eye appeal. Anyway, I have not noticed what you are asking about. I grade 'em just like the other dates...LOL; and that's why I'll never be a professional grader.

  • Overdate
    Overdate Posts: 7,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Has anyone ever run across a silver dollar with shovel marks?

  • SurfinxHI
    SurfinxHI Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think they aren't that crazy. I've got much worse graded common coins than my CCs.

    Dead people tell interesting tales.
  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,914 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2017 12:01AM
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    @Overdate said:
    Has anyone ever run across a silver dollar with shovel marks?

    No, but there is an interesting fellow on Coin Talk that believes that all bag marks are shovel/scoop marks. :D

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,938 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Overdate said:
    Has anyone ever run across a silver dollar with shovel marks?

    Chances are a silver dollar with shovel marks is going to be a no grade, junk box coin. Compared to the usually seen bag marks, a shovel mark would be quite severe.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Although I have not seen this to be true, it has been mentioned here before.... a long time ago. As I recall, there was no resolution then either. Looking at my CC's, I find the grade to be one grade below what I think it is.. :D:D:D Cheers, RickO

  • topstuf
    topstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Overdate said:
    Has anyone ever run across a silver dollar with shovel marks?

    Not a dollar, but a Moffatt & Co $5 ... :o

    Guy brought it in and told me he found it while DIGGING a rose garden.
    NATURALLY, the shovel whacked it almost EXACTLY diagonally across the obverse.
    Bent it some, too. :'(

    He left disappointed. I was too.

    RIGHT ACROSS THE COIN !!!!

    And it was in Sonora, CA.....the HEART of the "gold rush."

    Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........

  • coinhack
    coinhack Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I agree with @topstuff, the op. It seems to be consistent among all of the grading services and from as long ago as I can remember. My observations have been similar to @ricko, an uncirculated CC Morgan will grade a point (or grade) higher than a similar common date Morgan.

  • Overdate
    Overdate Posts: 7,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @topstuf said:
    Not a dollar, but a Moffatt & Co $5 ... :o

    Guy brought it in and told me he found it while DIGGING a rose garden.
    NATURALLY, the shovel whacked it almost EXACTLY diagonally across the obverse.
    Bent it some, too. :'(

    On the plus side, if he hadn't been digging in that exact spot the coin might never have been found.

  • nwcoast
    nwcoast Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Well, this thread explains a lot relating to one in my collection!
    Such a great forum here with so much knowledge shared! Thank you :-)

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

  • roadrunner
    roadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2017 11:50AM
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    I don't think the grading on CC's is any different than on other dates/mints. They often have tighter % spreads in MS63-65 which at least minimizes slight grading differences. I would say the grading on MS65/66/67 Morgans has gotten pretty loose.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2017 12:16PM
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    The TPGs and ANA use and teach market grading which considers how much a coin is worth, e.g. "AU-62" coins. CCs could be graded higher than coins from other mints in the same technical condition because they are worth more.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • RogerB
    RogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Without an agreed set of standards, and uniform application, "grading" will not be improved by anyone, or by addition of cute symbols and anecdotes.

    'Market grading' or 'farmers market grading' or 'organic grading' or 'pig pen grading' or 'technical grading' or 'analog grading' or 'Marquis de Sade grading' or whatever strikes the fancy is pure nonsense and more fraud than anything else. (Just an opinion...) :)

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2017 1:25PM
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    Market grading and technical grading are taught by the ANA and the former is used by many TPGs, including PCGS. It's important to understand how grading is done to answer questions like this.

    Here's information from PCGS.com stating they use market grading:

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists

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