Fake coin, real holder on eBay
Rexford
Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently won an NGC-certified coin at auction on eBay. About a week after purchasing it and after doing some research, I determined that the coin in the holder was undeniably fake, but that the holder itself was genuine. In other words, NGC mistakenly certified a coin that was not genuine (NGC's picture matched the coin and the holder was not tampered with).
Upon requesting a return based on the coin not being as described, the seller sent me the following message:
"At the end of the day it's [your source's] opinion against NGC. I bought and sold it as NGC certified and and it is in fact true. While I understand your angle and laud your research, at the end of the day your problem and claim is with NGC, not me. If you buy a certified coin, it's guaranteed by the respective grading company, not the seller. That's why they are in a business, to assume the risk instead of the seller. So a buyer is always taking some risks and NGC might also be not fool-proof.
Practically speaking, I work more than full time and simply don't have an ability to deal with them, nor should I, given that the certification is authentic. I've lost money (more than $1K you paid) numerous times with fake coins and that is the reality in this field. In this instance you do have a good recourse with NGC."
Is this a justifiable argument? While it is true that NGC authenticated it, it is certainly not genuine and selling inauthentic coins on eBay is not allowed. If I were to open a case, who would eBay side with? How would you advise to me proceed?
Comments
I think the seller is right. I think you need to take it up with NGC. I would think a case would be found in the sellers favor since the coin is in a real NGC holder.
If the coin is indeed fake, NGC will make it right. Going thru E-Bay PayPal may take a long time and you still might loose.
Pics and more details would help. Maybe some forum members can help with authentication.
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I agree with the seller.
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I am wondering how you determined this coin is fake? It would be nice to see some pictures to go along with this thread.
+1
This is an interesting case. We have no idea how you may have determined the coin is fake (and it may well be - just saying that either NGC or you have made an error).... It is more likely that you will have faster resolution with NGC. However, it would be very interesting for the forum to see the coin and understand how you determine it to be fake. Cheers, RickO
Picture please...
You can certainly file a SNAD on the sale (Significantly Not As Described) and regardless of whether the seller said no refunds. If you return it, the seller will just sell it to somebody else.
I prefer to send it into NGC... either they agree (and the guarantee should protect you) or you're wrong and the coin is as described. If it really is fake, this way they get it out of the hobby. But I can't guarantee you won't lose money on the deal, whereas the SNAD will be a full refund.
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When there is an argument that a coin in an NGC holder is fake, and no pictures are provided, I would take NGC's word over someone else's. If pictures are provided and you can prove it is fake, it would be more believable. Did the seller say no returns on graded coins? If so, I would just take it up with NGC, or resell it yourself.
If you say so. Pics needed.
The eBay seller acted in good faith and sold a coin certified by a reputable TPG so I understand his aggravation -- and yes, he's aggravated which you can tell by his tone. At this point, he could take the high road and accept returns under a "satisfaction unconditionally guaranteed" and the "customer is always right" policy, which would be nice. Keep dreaming -- not going to happen with this guy.
Since he doesn't seemed to be too worried about your satisfaction and whether you remain a customer, I suppose you could push it by filing a SNAD case and possibly win....
....but IMHO you should take the high road in this case and pursue the matter with NGC. If you do, there are really only two possible outcomes -- both positive. Either:
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I agree with the seller.
But don't expect slam-dunk agreement from NGC that it's fake.
Thank you for all of your responses. I have sufficient proof that the coin is fake, but would rather not display the coin for my own reasons and would prefer to treat the situation as a hypothetical where it is without question inauthentic. That being said, based on your responses I will just send it back to NGC.
Thanks again and best regards,
Rex
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
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Hmmmm, If I sold the coin I would take it back in a heartbeat! Can't believe you folks are siding with the seller!
Edit to add I would wager that ebay would enforce a return without a doubt.
Pics or it's hypothetical
Going on the response listed, it almost seems like the seller knew the coin was fake to start with.
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+1
@Rexford said: I recently won an NGC-certified coin at auction on eBay. About a week after purchasing it and after doing some research, I determined that the coin in the holder was undeniably fake, but that the holder itself was genuine. In other words, NGC mistakenly certified a coin that was not genuine (NGC's picture matched the coin and the holder was not tampered with).
I don't know anything about your qualifications as a coin authenticator but due to this post you do not come off too well.
You have just libeled one of the top two grading services on a competitors site. The fact that you even posed a question about what to do in this case tells me all I need to know!
After contacting the seller (who should have told you to send the coin back to NGC and he would refund your money if the coin was bad) you should have contacted NGC. This is not "rocket science." Unfortunately, Ebay favors uninformed buyers and covers their butt no matter the reason.
News Flash: EVERY TPGS has slabbed counterfeits. Nevertheless, at this time, I'll go with the grading service opinion. Don't show the coin if you wish (that's really smart) - it belongs to you; however, telling us what it is would help others form an opinion about the coin's authenticity. For example: The only counterfeit 1876 Three cent nickel I've seen was so bad it would not get past the secretaries at any TPGS!
If the coin turns out to be counterfeit, I hope you have the sense to post the coin (or tell us what it is). I will happily eat crow and apologize for doubting your extensive research (? LOL!)
Good Luck
I highly doubt you would win a SNAD in this case. Especially if you're not claiming the holder is tampered, eBay has become better accepting that the grading services know more than casual buyers, so the argument is just that "NGC said the coin is authentic, and they know better." I even had a negative removed recently when I charged a (stated) restocking fee for a buyer who returned a graded coin that had some spots clearly visible in the photos which he claimed were damage. I simply pointed out that the coin was straight graded, the spots were visible, and that was that. The coin wasn't considered damaged just because he said it was.
To restate: my purpose in this post wasn't to authenticate the coin or to libel NGC but to figure out how to proceed with eBay or NGC given my scenario. I will say that it is a very commonly faked and very well faked type of foreign coin and that other examples probably get by TPGS as well and I don't blame them for it. I apologize if there was any misunderstanding, and thank you again for your responses.
Best,
Rex
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Since it is a foreign coin, I am now leaning to the fact that YOU MAY POSSIBLY BE CORRECT!
My guess is an 8 Reales or Chinese coin.
Well, I for one, cannot make any response, one way or the other, without seeing the coin.
bob
Personally, I think Rexford was unnecessarily abused for his question....which seems valid to me.
1) Completely independent of the authenticity question, "Who is responsible for a coin deal where the buyer isn't happy?"
I think all dealers selling over the internet should take returns for any even semi-valid reason. Don't care if you are a professional, "this is my job" dealer, or a part time, "I'm a collector selling my spare parts" dealer.
2) But if ONLY the buyer believes the coin is a counterfeit, it seems valid for the buyer to pursue it with NGC. Sending it back to the dealer just means he will PROBABLY just sell it to the next unsuspecting collector....and the problem won't get fixed.
So, you see, those two competing views means it was a very good question for us to consider!! And complaints about an absence of pictures is beside the point, and just forum-ites pursuing their own entertainment for the day.
If you don't want to show the slab, just crop out the coin for review.
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Will you share with us the results and maybe pictures for our judgements?
Sure, I can share the results and pics when NGC makes their decision.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Send it in to our host for a second opinion.
EAC 6024
Then it will come back fake and I'll lose all my money. NGC has a Guarantee, so if they confirm that it's counterfeit they will refund me what I spent on it plus shipping and the expenditure for sending it to NGC for review.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
So, PCGS will not return the coin if fake?
EAC 6024
@Moldnut said: So, PCGS will not return the coin if fake?
Sending it to PCGS would be a waste of time. IMO, @Rexford has this all figured out now.
Just a heads up! OPA is a dealer I would not buy from! Obviously he would not stand behind what he sells! Graded or not...if you sell a counterfeit coin you are 1st in line to accept responsibility!
Edit to add...The reason for this post is OPA disagreeing with my previous comment!
People can return for any reason if you have a return policy. Ebay will side with the buyer.
Not taking it back is just wrong , if you have a return policy.
BTW you can not have a non return policy on graded coins only, as I have learned that personally.
Pics would be nice but just a good description would do.
Personally I think the seller should take it back and deal with NGC. That said, if s/he won't then take it up with NGC.
I had a slabbing error (wrong type), didn't realize it. Took the return (via the person doing the selling for me on that one) and PCGS made good on the difference.
Ebay would side with seller. NGC is on their short list of approved graders. They will side with NGC's opinion over that of the buyer.
Lesson for all. When you buy a certified coin with a no return policy any disagreement with the TPG's opinion is between you and the TPG. We tend to forget that the top TPGs are not perfect.
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.
I'll add derryb to the list of people I would not do business with due to disagreeing with who should be 1st responsible for a counterfeit coin!
I'm really surprised at some of the ethics I'm seeing displayed here! If there really is a circle of trust here who ever keeps up with it should take note of some of the posters here!
Because the coin is in a NGC holder, it is assumed to be authentic so you might have a problem winning a SNAD case.
You need proof that rises above NGC's reputation.
But I would open a SNAD case.
If you win, you get your money back. If you lose, then you have to deal with NGC and if you can convenience them the coin is fake, they will make you whole.
There are many foreign coin experts here that could tell you if your coin is fake or not. Your saying NGC already got it wrong once so go ahead and post a picture and kick it around here for a second opinion.
aren't most return policies on ebay these days "14 days"
If you wish to return it, if you are within that window, just return it.
I agree with the sellers statement, but they sold it on eBay - which pretty much allows returns for anything as far as I can tell? What did they put down for return policy?
Ask over on the NGC boards, they usually answer questions like this. If the seller was original submitter, I suspect they would say to return to them ... if it has been a few tears, their guarantee should cover.
LOL! I'm surprised you can't see the light. Would you not allow a return in this situation? Would you pass the buck on a TPG mistake onto a buyer? It happens a lot with variety attribution...which is not as bad as a counterfeit that slipped buy.
My trivial 1543 listings would be over 4,000 if ebay hadn't gotten into greedy mood and jacked their listing fees! I now cycle my listings over a 3 month period!
I would accept the return as it's the easiest way to make the buyer happy and I wouldn't want to be accused of selling counterfeits.
Plus, depending on how the buyer words the ebay case, it could end up worse than taking the return. A buyer can say it's counterfeit (without mentioning that the holder is real) and ebay could tell them to keep it and refund the money.
I agree with seller.
NGC said it's authentic. Buyer says it's authentic slab but counterfeit coin.
If coin is in fact counterfeit, NGC is responsible. Seller stated no returns. Seller sold a coin authenticated by NGC. Beef is between buyer and NGC. (buyer should have avoided a "no return" policy)
Seller would be responsible if slab was counterfeit.
OP asked if seller's position was justifiable, these are the reasons that I say yes. OP did not ask if I would honor a return.
It's not about ethics dummy, it's about common sense. Get some.
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.
It most certainly is all about ethics! Sorry you have to resort to name calling.
Here's a way this would most probably turn out if the coin is indeed counterfeit and buyer does as you suggest. I would be willing to wager NGC would not compensate the buyer the whole amount he paid. PCGS usually will not either.
So you are fine with the buyer having to jump through all the hoops with NGC and then loose money as well?
I'm sorry, even if the buyer is made whole that is a crock and I as a buyer would avoid dealing with a dealer with the ethics of pass the buck so to speak! Even though the coin is graded it is still a counterfeit and the buyer should not have to go through all that trouble. I don't believe the certification gives the seller a pass if it is counterfeit.
You're the one calling others unethical.
If buyer is not compensated for what he paid then he made two mistakes: he paid too much and he bought from a seller with no returns.
When an ebay buyer disagrees with the opinion of an ebay recognized TPG his two options are: return the coin under seller return policy or, if he can't do that, take it up with the TPG.
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.
All I can say is we are 2 different people with different ethical standards and we can agree to disagree!
Good grief...If you don't agree with amwldcoin, you are either labeled a "dealer" or unethical. Thank you. I'm all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.
Please do show us the coin in question. This would help a lot.
To me the solution to this is very simple. My understanding is a buyer has 14 days to return an item if it is not what they expected; it does NOT matter if the seller specified no returns. SNAD as the reason, open the claim, and go through the process. If the seller does not co-operate, ebay/paypal should re-imburse and charge the seller. At least that is the way I have seen take place.
I will make one last comment! As a seller you either do the right thing or the wrong thing! TPG graded or not...if the buyer thinks it is counterfeit you should oblige the return. If you do not...you are not what most would expect from a respected dealer or seller.
Personally...I don't believe in a no return policy. Even the best coin pictures look different from 1 computer to another. Happy customers make repeat buyers!
I would never....and I mean never expect a buyer of mine to have to jump through the hoops of a suspected counterfeit in a TPG holder to challenge the TPG. I think if you will look around...that would be true with any respected dealer! What gives here folks? You either stand behind what you sell or don't!