An 1872-S half dollar ...
BillJones
Posts: 34,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is a coin I saw at the recent EAC convention in Philadelphia. What do you think the grade is?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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I'd call it a 55 and possibly cleaned in the past.
I don't see any wear, but the surfaces and luster look to be impaired from cleaning....net 60 or 58, if not in a genny holder.
Probably something like ANACS MS60 Cleaned.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
AU55 details, cleaned.
I would say Genuine, Cleaned... however, from your question, I surmise it is in a graded holder... MS62? Cheers, RickO
Bill, your photos seem to over-emphasize hairlines...... I'm guessing this is in an MS62 holder.
Definitely hairlined. AU 58 details (improperly cleaned). There is a touch of friction on the left facing breast.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
MS60 details, cleaned.
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Fake.
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
I'm in the 55 camp as well. Please don't tell me it is in a no-problem unc. holder.
Tom
No apparent wear. But the luster is certainly impaired. The hairlines don't help. Value of 58/61. A somewhat underrated date imo. Problem-free uncs of this date are quite tough. I once owned the James Stack MS63 and it too was "lightly" hairlined.
UltraHighRelief is correct, I believe. This is a counterfeit coin that found its way into a PCGS holder as AU-something. That style of "S" mintmark appeared in 1875, if I am not mistaken.
Unc details
@UltraHighRelief said: "Fake."
Thankfully, @rhedden has posted something WORTHWILE for us to consider: "UltraHighRelief is correct, I believe. This is a counterfeit coin that found its way into a PCGS holder as AU-something. That style of "S" mintmark appeared in 1875, if I am not mistaken."
Recent State-of-the-Art counterfeits have been seen in the Liberty seated series. Some of these MAY have gotten slabbed. This appears to be one of those that was described in January of this year. Apparently the "S' is not the correct shape. Additionally, the lump next to the base of the "T" in "Trust" is another diagnostic.
These counterfeits were discovered by specialists. I doubt any of us - including a TPGS grader - would have even given a second look at this OBVIOUSLY GENUINE looking coin from the image.
Both posters are correct. The coin is a fake. However, I wish when posters gave opinions about grade or authenticity, they would state their reasons. It would make all of us better graders and authenticators!
PS I think the OP knew this was a C/F and put this up as a test for all of us. I like that a lot! I tried the same thing several times on another forum and the crybabies over there had a fit!
If that coin is, in fact, a fake, then the coin hobby is in serious trouble. Is it really a fake????
Problem-free MS62. Not a fan.
Lance.
i would grade it cleaned au details. no idea what they called it...anywhere from 55 to 62 probably.
Nice catch Rhedden. The Wiley-Bugert book only shows one mint mark high - and this one is not wide enough to match it. The drapery under her left arm is a bit faint. The one variety of this date with "partial drapery" has a mint mark that is half missing due to polishing. They might have used an example of that obverse die.
The "very small" mint mark like/similar to this fake has was used on some with motto 1866 to 1871 "s" mint coins. In 1872 they decided to give the "very small" mint mark a vacation. At least on this coin the mm looks like a "very small" one to me.
Sorry I played games with your guys, but yes this is a counterfeit and are darn scarey one. I would not have spotted it because I don't study or collect Liberty Seated Half Dollars by die variety. I might not have this right, but the obverse on this piece was copied from the Philadelphia Mint coin, and the reverse was supposed to be from the 1871-S.
This piece was slabbed by ANACS. The fellow who put together the display had quite a few more fakes, and I took photos of some of them. This one came out the best using my vacation cameram, hand held, and the available lighting.
Did ANACS grade it as genuine?
@291fifth said: "If that coin is, in fact, a fake, then the coin hobby is in serious trouble."
If you only knew. Support your TPGS's and let them know about anything in your area of expertise that looks fishy.
The hobby has been under assault for decades. Every so often the counterfeiters take a great leap forward and fool everyone for a short time. Unfortunately, IMO, fakes have never been this much of a challenge for experienced dealers and the handful + of long-time professional authenticators that form the core of the grading services.
Decades ago an instructor told his class that when he gives an opinion on a coin and it goes back to the customer, for the rest of the time the coin stays with its photo certificate - every person (collector/dealer) who sees it will be trying their best to prove that his opinion was incorrect! It's a good system. Recently, he has written that many coins he routinely authenticated in a few seconds now may take several minutes!
Yes. They did not give it a straight grade. It was marked "cleaned."
The cleaning and environmental damage aspects of grading are giving the crooks to opportunity to hide some of the problems with their fakes and get them into genuine holders.
@BillJones Thanks for the education.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Hmmmmm.
Interesting, and not in a good way.
Knowing it's fake and working backwards it's easy to pick up on one or two other minor issues...... but I would have missed this for sure.
Great and informative post, Bill. Thanks.
Tom
If it was a Morgan and I submitted it it comes back Unc Details 100% of the time. That should the grade on this coin. Pretty scruffy.
Here is an article from Coin World about these fakes. PCGS apparently graded two of them as well. So there you have it: these fakes tricked both ANACS and PCGS graders at some point. Wow. Assuming they are die-struck coins, what other dates have been struck?
coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2017/01/specialists-confirm-fake-1872-S-seated-liberty-half-dollar.all.html
What if they had used the correct dies, would we even be able to tell. due to this I recently (last week at Central States) unloaded my seated half collection. So I am one collector who decided not worth playing with these anymore. Actually getting closer and close to liquidating and going fishing more.
Thanks to Bill Jones so we can make this mistake here....instead of on the bourse floor.
One benefit of collecting choice/gem unc coins is that you don't give the counterfeiter as many chances to get the coin by you. They need to get the luster, toning, strike, die cracks/die polish, reed count, and other typical US Mint "clues" all correct. With a cleaned and damaged XF/AU/60ish coin they have more opportunity to hide stuff. If counterfeiters can match original 150 year old toning/grunge on coins, that will be another hurdle for us.
_ If counterfeiters can match original 150 year old toning/grunge on coins, that will be another hurdle for us._
You're making me think of the recently posted 1873-cc quarter that was discussed on this forum recently. See the post by Lucanus in the "Please Post Your Seated Liberty Images" thread on page 41 (link below). The surfaces on that coin would fool the pants off me any day of the week, and it sure got past the PCGS graders too. I had previously remarked that a coin doctor with that kind of skill could actually be a benefit to the hobby in restoring cleaned silver coins... but I regret those words. If they were to apply their talents in an evil way for the purpose of fooling collectors, like artificially toning die-struck counterfeits to look like the real deal... then we're all screwed.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/847248/please-post-your-seated-liberty-images/p41
Agreed. Thanks!
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
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That's a scary counterfeit!
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At some point, will collectors just need to assume that low end coins may be counterfeit with no way to tell?
It's a bit scary, but sometimes when I buy a raw coin, I just assume that there's some reasonable probability that it may be fake.
Sadly it's coming to that point. The "details grade" coins seem to be a real problem. All of the fakes that I have seen recently in slabs were "details," problem coins.