NEWP: 1853 Arrows & Rays 25C - Guess The Grade (revelaed)

oih82w8 · March 4, 2017 6:11AM

I picked up an upgraded 1853 A&R 25C a few weeks ago and wanted to share the talent of our own forum member robec (Bob) who took some images for me. Would you care to "Guess The Grade"?

Thank you for your interest and comments.

Boosibri · March 4, 2017 6:16AM

AU50-55 depending on the luster

ricko · March 4, 2017 6:18AM

MS62.... Cheers, RickO

kaz · March 4, 2017 6:21AM

I'm with Boosibri. NIce looking coin!

Azurescens · March 4, 2017 6:23AM

MS-62 at best. There's a lot of very nice things going for it. I bet I'm wrong though because of shield obverse. Beautiful coin. I'd love to own one. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to it's grade.

Catbert · March 4, 2017 6:27AM

@Boosibri said:
AU50-55 depending on the luster

This! Nice coin!!!!!

BillJones · March 4, 2017 6:33AM

Nice coin! My example is not as good as this. The slab grade is probably MS-62. The collector grade could be also be Mint State depending upon the luster. It looks like there is alot of it on the reverse. The obverse might have a slight rub, but I can't see this grading lower than AU-58.

CommemDude · March 4, 2017 6:47AM

Nice----AU55 but the color does not look natural in my opinion

coinnut · March 4, 2017 6:50AM

Nice looking coin. I'm in the AU-55 camp.

TopographicOceans · March 4, 2017 7:22AM

I guess I have to go with AU-58, just because it could be MS61/62

(unless it's 55)

Walkerguy21D · March 4, 2017 7:23AM

AU55 is my guess also.

Interesting that Billjones, who arguably has some of the nicest type coins on the forum, does not have an example as good as this one.
Even before reading his comment, I was going to state that is one tough coin to find higher than XF with any kind of eye appeal. I come across nice original VF coins all the time, and occasionally XF's, but seldom AU or MS coins, and when I see them, they have usually been cleaned or otherwise lack appeal. I had a nearly black XF coin in my own 7070 for years, and after years of looking upgraded to a light gray 45 about 12 years ago, that has acquired some light blue and pastel tone from the album.

.

Azurescens · March 4, 2017 7:38AM

And I bet it's be> @CommemDude said:

Nice----AU55 but the color does not look natural in my opinion

It looks right.. right? I have some toned silver that gets similar to this color and it's one of my favorite kinds. I've got an ms65 Kennedy with this color and it makes that eagle pop, same with the back of barber halves.

oih82w8 · March 4, 2017 8:02AM

I really like the copperish/bronze tone, similar to my 1847 Seated 25C, and it is "problem free".

keets · March 4, 2017 8:13AM

AU62.

Eagleguy · March 4, 2017 8:29AM

I think it's better than AU. My 53 has a lot less feather detail on the reverse. I don't see any rub on the knee area unless the toning is hiding it. I'm almost tempted to say 64, but 62 is probably right.

roadrunner · March 4, 2017 8:47AM

MS61

Send it in 10X and you'll probably get everything from 58 to 62 along the way.

The OP leaks out that this has been "upgraded." So it's inconceivable to me it was not at least a 58 last time around....though I could see PCGS giving it a AU55 years ago on a tough day. Overall a very appealing example of this type coin....the most common date in the entire seated quarter series by a mile due to a big mintage and decent survival rate.

What is it really? It's a borderline mint state coin with mostly full luster and some minor rub. "Technically" it cannot be better than AU58. With market grading it can be 61/62 as Keets' AU62 suggests. Obvious rub on eagle's upper right wing arch and the left center claw knuckle that is not due to striking. Very faint rub or luster breaks on most of the obv figure high points. Field luster ranges from 40-80% full...the photo is not lit up enough for me to tell otherwise.

Kccoin · March 4, 2017 8:50AM

@keets said:
AU62.

I guess 55 or 58, but I like this grade. It looks like there is a bit of rub on her thighs, but there has been a few coins posted here that have been market graded into the MS level.

An LS veteran may know how much friction is alllowed in an MS grade.

Edited to add: its a nice type coin.

oih82w8 · March 4, 2017 8:52AM

rr, the upgrade was from a previous A&R which was a VF35.

golden · March 4, 2017 8:59AM

55.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 9:14AM

Interesting that Billjones, who arguably has some of the nicest type coins on the forum, does not have an example as good as this one.

Here is my piece which is in an NGC NS-61 holder. It's obviously been dipped. The "with arrows" type coins give me collector fatigue. I don't find them that exciting, although the 1853 Arrows and Rays quarter and half dollar are the best of the lot. I finally bought this out of frustration because I couldn't find one I really liked and probably wasn't ready to pay the high price for one that would have me totally happy with it. There are far more interesting coins out there. Oih82w8's is better than mine because it has an original look to it, in the very least.

roadrunner · March 4, 2017 9:19AM

@oih82w8 said:
rr, the upgrade was from a previous A&R which was a VF35.

That's nuts. Since I've been collecting seated quarters in 1974....that was NEVER a VF35. That would have been XF45 to AU50 back then. There's some strange stuff out there. Like the $5 Capped Bust $5 gold graded XF45 mid-1980's ANACS photo cert...going PCGS MS62 about 10 yrs ago. And it was a truly nice MS62.

kaz · March 4, 2017 9:33AM

I think he meant that he used to have VF 35 and replaced it (upgraded) with the coin posted. I think.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 9:33AM

The 1853 Arrows and Rays quarter has been quite available in EF-40 and 45. I've had several of them as a collector an a dealer, but they were in the old ANACS holders.

keets · March 4, 2017 9:37AM

roadrunner, I think what the OP is saying is that he previously owned a VF35 as a type coin and now he has upgraded the COIN IN HIS COLLECTION to this one.

oih82w8 · March 4, 2017 10:37AM

Yes, kaz and keets are correct. This was my old A&R 25C before the OP coin.

roadrunner · March 4, 2017 1:08PM

@BillJones said:
The 1853 Arrows and Rays quarter has been quite available in EF-40 and 45. I've had several of them as a collector an a dealer, but they were in the old ANACS holders.

Actually, they are quite available in ALL grades right up to MS65. The only kicker is their type coin status elevates them from the most common date in the series, to probably the most expensive type coin in GEM after the No Drapery design. MS63's and MS64's abound, though it seems about half or more of them are now dipped out. An attractive and original 1853 A&R quarter with luster is a dying breed. Sorry about confusing the intent of that VF35 coin. I just read it literally, that you "upgraded" the coin. Cha-ching.

I'm changing my original guess back from MS61 to AU58 since I got the "upgrade" interpretation incorrect. There is probably no one correct "market" grade for this coin.

AU58.

AUandAG · March 4, 2017 1:12PM

55 here

ms70 · March 4, 2017 1:16PM

This is tough. The reverse looks at least 2 grades higher than the obverse.

I'm going with 55 based on the obverse. As they say, it's only as good as it's worst side. No matter what, it's a beautiful coin I would love to own.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 1:32PM

MS63's and MS64's abound, though it seems about half or more of them are now dipped out.

Sorry Roadrunner, but that has not been my experience. Both the Arrows and Rays quarter and half dollar are very hard to locate in strict Mint State. The mintages were high which resulted in "tired dies." Many pieces were not well made which took them out of Gem or even Choice Mint State from the beginning. If you have have seen hoards of these in Mint State, that's news to me.

I found the quarter to be especially difficult. The piece I bought came from David Lawrence, and at the time I bought it John's comment to was, there are very few example available in Mint State.

You are right right on the "dipped out" part.

DIMEMAN · March 4, 2017 1:37PM

I'm in the AU55 camp......nice coin.

roadrunner · March 4, 2017 2:01PM

@BillJones said:

MS63's and MS64's abound, though it seems about half or more of them are now dipped out.

Sorry Roadrunner, but that has not been my experience. Both the Arrows and Rays quarter and half dollar are very hard to locate in strict Mint State. The mintages were high which resulted in "tired dies." Many pieces were not well made which took them out of Gem or even Choice Mint State from the beginning. If you have have seen hoards of these in Mint State, that's news to me.

I found the quarter to be especially difficult. The piece I bought came from David Lawrence, and at the time I bought it John's comment to was, there are very few example available in Mint State.

Bill, don't believe me or DLRC, go by what has been graded by PCGS. It's an open and shut case. It's not like I make this stuff up. And even assuming lots of resubmissions, the answer is clear. It's one of the most common dates of the series in unc....and in ALL grades combined....it is the most common by far. Now if you're considering standards different than PCGS MS63-MS64 then that's another story. If I only considered 100% luster, zero rub 1840-1855 seated quarters in MS62-MS65, there would a large % of those slabbed that would get kicked out. But let's look at the real pops at PCGS.

1853 Philly A&R pops in 62-67 grade: 86 / 93 / 175 / 21 / 9 / 2.

That 175 in MS64 is tied with the common 1891 as the highest among all MS64's. And 3rd place below is not close. The combined MS62-MS67 pops are 408. Only the 1876 and 1877-cc which had small hoards are higher, and not by more than 10-15% higher. If you only look at 1838-1865 ND and NM coins, the 1853 falls out of that group as the most common by far in unc, or choice unc. The 1861 Philly beats it by a considerable margin. So despite what David Lawrence might have said, the DATE is common in choice unc.

While choice unc 1853's don't often show up at local shows or the local B&M shop because of their high price, they are out there on the big circuit and in large dealer's hands. I would be surprised if you attended a large coin show like FUN or summer ANA and couldn't find a dozen or two of MS63/MS64's to choose from. Now if you want a zero rub, full luster, pretty toned, well struck, MS62/63...forget it...90% of them won't qualify. You'd have better luck at the 64 level though where a better % have no rub.

From my experiences, I would have thought the 1853 half dollar is much tougher than the quarter in choice unc, if only due to having a 4X mintage than the quarter. But the PCGS pops show them almost equal in total uncs. The half with over 210 MS64's puts it ahead of ANY seated quarter in that grade. With the pay day for a 63 to 64 or 64 to 65 upgrade in these expensive type coins, no doubt there's plenty of resubmissions. My auction and dealer inventory data on these prior to PCGS (1986) show them both to be common on the market. Again, if one demands a killer example in any particular grade, that will take time. Collectors and dealers have ruined a large % of them. Doesn't matter to me if most are somewhat poorly made. As long as they have full luster, no rub and marks associated with a 63/64 grade, then fine. No drapery halves and quarters have it even worse as far as poor production standards. Try finding a no rub, full luster, pleasing MS63 in that type.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 2:35PM

Using population reports can only take you so far. The trouble with leaning on the MS-64s that are in the population reports as evidence that this coin is "easy to find" is that you are ignoring the number of crack-outs in search the lucrative MS-65 grade. If I could have found a nice, original surface MS-64, I would have bought instead of the dipped MS-61 I'm holding now.

Nic · March 4, 2017 2:47PM

@roadrunner said:

@BillJones said:

MS63's and MS64's abound, though it seems about half or more of them are now dipped out.

Sorry Roadrunner, but that has not been my experience. Both the Arrows and Rays quarter and half dollar are very hard to locate in strict Mint State. The mintages were high which resulted in "tired dies." Many pieces were not well made which took them out of Gem or even Choice Mint State from the beginning. If you have have seen hoards of these in Mint State, that's news to me.

I found the quarter to be especially difficult. The piece I bought came from David Lawrence, and at the time I bought it John's comment to was, there are very few example available in Mint State.

Bill, don't believe me or DLRC, go by what has been graded by PCGS. It's an open and shut case. It's not like I make this stuff up. And even assuming lots of resubmissions, the answer is clear. It's one of the most common dates of the series in unc....and in ALL grades combined....it is the most common by far. Now if you're considering standards different than PCGS MS63-MS64 then that's another story. If I only considered 100% luster, zero rub 1840-1855 seated quarters in MS62-MS65, there would a large % of those slabbed that would get kicked out. But let's look at the real pops at PCGS.

1853 Philly A&R pops in 62-67 grade: 86 / 93 / 175 / 21 / 9 / 2.

That 175 in MS64 is tied with the common 1891 as the highest among all MS64's. And 3rd place below is not close. The combined MS62-MS67 pops are 408. Only the 1876 and 1877-cc which had small hoards are higher, and not by more than 10-15% higher. If you only look at 1838-1865 ND and NM coins, the 1853 falls out of that group as the most common by far in unc, or choice unc. The 1861 Philly beats it by a considerable margin. So despite what David Lawrence might have said, the DATE is common in choice unc.

While choice unc 1853's don't often show up at local shows or the local B&M shop because of their high price, they are out there on the big circuit and in large dealer's hands. I would be surprised if you attended a large coin show like FUN or summer ANA and couldn't find a dozen or two of MS63/MS64's to choose from. Now if you want a zero rub, full luster, pretty toned, well struck, MS62/63...forget it...90% of them won't qualify. You'd have better luck at the 64 level though where a better % have no rub.

From my experiences, I would have thought the 1853 half dollar is much tougher than the quarter in choice unc, if only due to having a 4X mintage than the quarter. But the PCGS pops show them almost equal in total uncs. The half with over 210 MS64's puts it ahead of ANY seated quarter in that grade. With the pay day for a 63 to 64 or 64 to 65 upgrade in these expensive type coins, no doubt there's plenty of resubmissions. My auction and dealer inventory data on these prior to PCGS (1986) show them both to be common on the market. Again, if one demands a killer example in any particular grade, that will take time. Collectors and dealers have ruined a large % of them. Doesn't matter to me if most are somewhat poorly made. As long as they have full luster, no rub and marks associated with a 63/64 grade, then fine. No drapery halves and quarters have it even worse as far as poor production standards. Try finding a no rub, full luster, pleasing MS63 in that type.

Agree.

I do not like the color on the OP coin. Not MS.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 2:53PM

Well it's nice that you fellows have been able to find so many of these coins. I looked at four major shows, FUN and Baltimore over a year's stretch, and came up empty at every one of them. I guess I was distined to never have any luck with that coin.

Some issues of coins are just never work out, at least for me. The 1796 half dime was another one. It was never in the right place at the right time for me.

Walkerguy21D · March 4, 2017 3:03PM

I hate to argue with rr, and there may be MS coins available, although I don't recall ever seeing 'a dozen or two' at FUN, and have gone every year for many years. I was mainly searching for a nice AU coin, and never really found a true AU with decent eye appeal, and I'm certainly not over picky. I suppose if I had tracked Heritage or whatever one would have turned up, but I hit plenty of shows, large and small, when I was building my 7070, and never ran across any.

.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 3:17PM

I took the time to look at the "Coins Facts" photos. I saw mostly dipped coins and some pieces with the almost constant "rub on the knee." I guess I will just agree to do disagree with the assertion that the 1853 Arrows and Rays Quarter is really common in Choice Unc.

BryceM · March 4, 2017 3:53PM

Funny how that sometimes happens. A few years ago I was wanting a nice Gem 1927-D Peace dollar. There weren't any - not at shows, not on websites, not in auctions. I finally paid too much for one and suddenly they were everywhere. They have been ever since too.

As for the coin, it looks different on my big desktop monitor than it did on my phone. Put me in the AU55 camp, with obverse field luster being the limiting factor. From my phone I was thinking more like MS62/3.

BillJones · March 4, 2017 3:56PM

@BryceM said:
Funny how that sometimes happens. A few years ago I was wanting a nice Gem 1927-D Peace dollar. There weren't any - not at shows, not on websites, not in auctions. I finally paid to much for one and suddenly they were everywhere. They have been ever since too.

Yes, some coins seem to appear on the market in cycles.

Bochiman · March 4, 2017 4:01PM

From the photo in the OP, not only is it much better than the one I have in our 7070, but I would say I could see it as AU58 or possibly MS63

roadrunner · March 4, 2017 6:20PM

I do agree with Bill Jones that finding any pre-1854 early seated quarter in no rub, full luster, nice appeal MS62-MS64 is very difficult. I would have to reject 80-90% of the coins out there if that's the standard. I'd probably agree with Walkerguy21D that eye appealing, no problem AU coins are also difficult to find....probably only 10-20% of what's out there. Best 1853 A&R I ever personally owned was a white PCGS MS64 at approx $4500 back in 2008 at summer ANA. It had no rub, sharp strike, and full luster though I never was in love with that blast white look.

Catbert · March 4, 2017 6:36PM

Regardless of the grade, I like what I see and congratulate the OP!

oih82w8 · March 5, 2017 11:51AM

PCGS gave her an AU50.

EastonCollection · March 5, 2017 12:08PM

I agree with the grade. Nice coin.

AmazonX · March 5, 2017 12:12PM

Very nice coin.

Bochiman · March 5, 2017 12:31PM

From the new photo, there is no way I would have put it above AU55...at most.
Still, a very nice coin, but the pics do show it quite differently...

ms70 · March 5, 2017 12:34PM

Wow. I thought my guess at 55 was low. Still, I like that coin very much.

Boosibri · March 5, 2017 12:38PM

guess the first guess was pretty good

Moldnut · March 5, 2017 12:39PM

Heck of a nice coin for a five O

After the slab shot finally loaded for me, it doesn't even look like the same coin.

kaz · March 5, 2017 8:27PM

very nice for the grade.

roadrunner · March 5, 2017 8:29PM

Now go for the gold bean. That's a lot 'o luster and meat on that coin for a 50. It's possible it's being netted down a bit for the color....which might not be 100% provable as NT.

ricko · March 6, 2017 7:02AM

If the grade don't fit, you must resubmit.... Cheers, RickO

NEWP: 1853 Arrows & Rays 25C - Guess The Grade (revelaed)

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NEWP: 1853 Arrows &amp; Rays 25C - Guess The Grade (revelaed)

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NEWP: 1853 Arrows & Rays 25C - Guess The Grade (revelaed)