Just be kind enough to point out a thread where someone posts a picture of just a sticker without a coin.
mark
I've seen way to many pictures with the cac sticker framed in-between the reverse and obverse images. That's going out of your way to take a picture of a sticker. I'm with Dimeman.
it's kinda like if you like coke, but don't drink pepsi. are pepsi drinkers wrong [yes, it is horrible]? are people who prefer rc cola from another planet[possibly]?
just collect what you like guys. quit starting threads about cac [Agree]. this is a pcgs coin forum. sheesh! [If it was the NGC boards this thread would be on top for three weeks ]
Just be kind enough to point out a thread where someone posts a picture of just a sticker without a coin.
mark
I've seen way to many pictures with the cac sticker framed in-between the reverse and obverse images. That's going out of your way to take a picture of a sticker. I'm with Dimeman.
Eye roll. Serious eye roll.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I didn't start this thread and I am not bashing CAC. Just stating how I collect and how I look at CAC.
Everyone should collect what they like and want. This is my last post on this thread unless someone ask me something that has not been addressed here before.
@DIMEMAN said:
I agree that CAC is only an opinion of an opinion. I can take or leave coins that are CAC'ed. It all depends on weither I like the coin or not and if I need the coin or not. I will not pass on a coin because of a sticker or no sticker. It's if I like/want the coin or not. I have never sent coins to CAC and never will. I do believe that some here put way to much importance on the sticker and not the coin. To me coin collecting is collecting coins not stickers.
L
I've never known anybody to collect stickers. Coins with stickers associated yes. They are still are buying the coin. There is always a coin.
mark
You know exactly what I meant. Those who will not buy a coin without a sticker........are collecting stickers.
As an analogy then, if some will not buy a coin without a sticker are collecting stickers, are those that buy only coins in one brand of TPG slab collecting slabs? Just sayin'
Best, SH
No....not really. I will buy a coin in any holder or even raw if it is a coin I want or need. I will then get it in a PCGS holder so it will go in my sets. It's just another benefit that PCGS is my personnel choice of holder.
@CommemDude said:
Unfortunately, the beans have imposed themselves on collecting and anyone who is looking at an expensive coin that is bean-less now wonders.... why no bean?
Or also wonders why expensive raw coins aren't slabbed.
I'd like to understand why those who don't like CAC find the need to be so vocal. The are many businesses and business models that I don't like for a variety of reasons and I've never felt the need create public threads bashing them. I'm just not a customer of those businesses.
So if you don't care about CAC stickers on your slabs, then why care about bashing them? Is it that there are CAC'd coins that you want and you feel go for too high prices beyond what you feel the coin is worth and you are willing to pay? If it is all gimmick, then it seems like a wonderful inefficiency in the market to be exploited.
The non CACers remind me of those dealers back in 80s who Hated when TPG coins came on the market.. .. now CAC sharpens the Grading result .... some think it is encroached on their own knowledge, grading ability to get some advantage for buying /selling coins
Dimeman: I can take or leave coins that are CAC'ed. It all depends on weither I like the coin or not and if I need the coin or not. I will not pass on a coin because of a sticker or no sticker. It's if I like/want the coin or not. ... To me coin collecting is collecting coins not stickers.
This is a fair enough statement. Hopefully, no one is suggesting that only CAC stickers should be taken into consideration when coin buying decisons are made. Indeed, in many of my articles, including the current one, I have pointed out that some mainstream collecting objectives are not viable if a buyer demands only coins that are stickered. Non-stickered coins must be considered, from a logical perspective.
Dimeman: I agree that CAC is only an opinion of an opinion.
This statement is inaccurate and misleading. Whether or not a determination at CAC is based upon facts or is just an opinion depends upon the specific coin considered and the circumstances. If experts at CAC refuse to sticker an already certified MS-67 coin because they figure that the coin does not have enough eye appeal for a 67 grade, then certainly some opinion is involved, especially if there is no doubt that the coin in question grades AT LEAST MS-66.
In many cases, it is objectively clear that a coin has been doctored. If putty, films, women's make-up, and other substances are added to coins, the presence of such matter is factual, not an opinion. There are people who doctor coins often for the purpose of slipping doctored coins by the graders at grading services. Indeed, there are people who have doctored many coins with the intention of trying to deceive graders at PCGS or ATS.
In many (though not all) cases, experts at CAC can identify consequences of doctoring that other experts have missed. It is just wrong for Dimeman to assert that only opinions are involved.
By mentioning the PCGS lawsuit in 2010, I am NOT implying that the defendants engaged in wrongdoing of any kind. One or all of them may not have broken the law. Furthermore, alleged wrongdoing was never proved in a court of law. An immediate point is that PCGS graders, and all other relevant graders, are sometimes deceived by coin doctors, and that CAC experts are very skilled at identifying doctored coins.
For me, CAC provides an invaluable service and most often I will demand a coin be CAC before I will buy it. I am very good at grading my series, however I cannot detect everything that can be done to coins these days.
The exception is when I know that a coin is original, can identify why JA didn't sticker it and find the overall quality of the coin acceptable in my own eyes.
Here are some examples:
I purchased this coin knowing it had failed CAC for a small reverse scratch. I found it to be pq even with this and eventually CAC agreed with me.
I bought this coin knowing that it had failed CAC for friction on the cheek. JA really won't sticker a gem if it has this issue. I found the coin to be so nice otherwise that I just had to buy it despite knowing it will never sticker.
Same issue with this coin. It's the finest I've ever seen even though just a 63 and IMO friction on the cheek is expected and not an impairment. I suspect this one will sticker upon further review.
@tradedollarnut said:
For me, CAC provides an invaluable service and most often I will demand a coin be CAC before I will buy it. I am very good at grading my series, however I cannot detect everything that can be done to coins these days.
The exception is when I know that a coin is original, can identify why JA didn't sticker it and find the overall quality of the coin acceptable in my own eyes.
Here are some examples:
I purchased this coin knowing it had failed CAC for a small reverse scratch. I found it to be pq even with this and eventually CAC agreed with me.
I bought this coin knowing that it had failed CAC for friction on the cheek. JA really won't sticker a gem if it has this issue. I found the coin to be so nice otherwise that I just had to buy it despite knowing it will never sticker.
Same issue with this coin. It's the finest I've ever seen even though just a 63 and IMO friction on the cheek is expected and not an impairment. I suspect this one will sticker upon further review.
TDN - These are perfect examples to what I have been saying. I agree with you totally and would also buy these coins......IF I had the money!
@MrEureka said:
It seems to me that anyone who buys into the concept of third-party grading should buy into the concept of fourth-party grading for the same reasons.
Similarly, anyone who rejects fourth-party grading should reject third-party grading for the same reasons.
Exactly.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
TDN - These are perfect examples to what I have been saying. I agree with you totally and would also buy these coins......IF I had the money!
Yes - but the difference is that I know and recognize the value CAC provides and purchase them occasionally despite that....instead of flatly proclaiming it is a useless service.
@Wabbit2313 said:
There has never been a CAC thread where Dimeman didn't do this:
There has to be more to his story. No one can be this angry for no reason.
Shoveling poop is something I have to do on occasion---I enjoy this more than looking through cases of coins in coin shows that I have been to during the last decade.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Wabbit2313 said:
There has never been a CAC thread where Dimeman didn't do this:
There has to be more to his story. No one can be this angry for no reason.
Shoveling poop is something I have to do on occasion---I enjoy this more than looking through cases of coins in coin shows that I have been to during the last decade.
Where have I showed anger here? I have merely stated that I won't limit myself to CAC coins. I don't even limit myself to PCGS coins.
@BryceM said:
Wait, haven't we already plowed this field?
not sure there are many topics left that haven't been plowed over the many beaten dead horses on this or many other forums. how some of the people here did it for 10+ years before my tenure is beyond me.
people want to be active (not saying i'm not one of these), despite nearly every obvious question having been already asked and answered multiple times. what forums need these days is a software to archive and organize more importantly the top 20-40 things asked about. this includes planchet flaws and i'm not picking on those that ask.
i've just noticed on MANY other active forums that they VERY often refer commonly asked questions by innocent posters, to the extensive already answered section for said question(s) and often times, threads are moved to appropriate sections. The US forum here is quite diverse and a top candidate for some archival organizing and referencing. there are many benefits besides the obvious for this. especially for new members whom want to acclimate a little faster.
not referencing the archives and their VAST and IMPRESSIVE research and answers, is to some extent, insulting to those that have made great, major, in-depth, lengthym knowledgeable contributions and those kind of posts are exhaustive, unnecessary etc to do over and over.
my 2c
no matter what someone else is complaining about, debating etc, i always seem to find a way to bring the archives into it. sheesh. If someone made an Alt called "The Archives", we could have some really good fun with it. Perhaps, "the CAC boogie-man."
is this considered an open-forum again? kinda seems like it.
.
For me, when considering an early gold purchase, it matters not whether there's a CAC bean or not, as long as the coin looks "right" to me. If it has a bean and it looks "right", I buy it.
If it doesn't have a bean, and it looks "right", I buy it....
If it doesn't look "right"... bean or no bean, I don't buy it... plain and simple.
TDN - These are perfect examples to what I have been saying. I agree with you totally and would also buy these coins......IF I had the money!
You do not agree with him totally. In fact you do not agree with him at all.
Bruce: "CAC provides an invaluable service and most often I will demand a coin be CAC before I will buy"
Your comments say exactly the opposite, in every single thread that mentions CAC.
You remind me of the Lawyers on "Law & Order". I agreed with the fact that he bought coins he liked even though they did not have stickers. Nice try Wabbit.
Those coins look like a perfect example. I agree that both photos look like nice coins, however the cac coin you can see from the picture that the coin is dripping luster and original AU while the $10 that is not cac is PQ (looks 53+-55) looking but looks to me hazed over and was most probably cleaned and retoned.
I can definitely agree that both coins are very nice looking and whether or not stickered would deserve a premium, however if you are looking for original and PQ the premium will likely be higher on the first coin.
It has been stated in the past that PQ and pretty coins have always brought strong prices so why is cac needed? One large answer is that the vast majority of buyers of "rare" coins do NOT know what is truly considered PQ and original and can easily be duped to believe something is nice and PQ when in fact it is not.
@ms70 said:
Each of my coins grades are agreed upon by multiple opinions from just two sources: Mine and the professional panel of graders at PCGS. If that's not enough I might as well quit.
A total of 5-20 seconds each for the other sources....and unlimited by yourself. And in the vast majority of cases, there is probably not complete/unanimous agreement among those TPG graders. I learned long ago that their opinion + my opinion still leaves considerable room for error. You can put 10 of the best graders in the world together with unlimited time on a coin....and maybe get 60-80% agreement. How does that work with only 3 graders?
I don't see how additional grading, with more graders, with their differing opinions, makes it any more accurate. It's just more of the same.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't know anybody who has 100% stickered coins.
mark
Well, since there are major dealers who inventory 95% stickered coins, of which probably 90% or more are PCGS, and recommend only those to their clients....that strongly suggests to me the collecting of plastic and stickers. Yes, there happens to be nice/attractive coins in most of those slabs. 95% is close enough to 100% that the difference in negligible.
I've had nice coins rejected by CAC for various reasons. Since I can't go in and "petition" JA in order to change their mind, I have to accept it as a "miss." I learned that lesson back in 1988 when one of my "gem" seated halves would only go 64. I was sort of crushed. A dealer bought that at auction raw for a small premium to what I had paid 5 years earlier (I cracked it out). They also got the 64 grade...as I told them they would. What I didn't know was that they petitioned the TPG and ended up with a 65 grade. A $6K purchase instantly went to $12K and was easy to sell as a top pop. That same coin is very likely in a MS66 holder today.
The very first CAC'd coin I bought has a gold sticker. Upon considerable reflection I determined that it has a lot of "human intervention" and that PCGS got it right with an EF-40 grade, and CAC got it wrong in suggesting that it is under graded. The piece is a Bechler gold dollar, it it has a fair number of brush marks on it. "AU net graded to EF-40" is the proper grade.
CAC is good, but not perfect, and the constant kowtowing to it has gotten to be too much.
I'm going to pretend like you posted this one in my thread on gold beans that shouldn't be....thanks.
And, there are those that post saying all their coins MUST be in PCGS.....or MUST be in a certain type of holder (or NOT in certain types of holders).
WHO THE F CARES? Really? It's their hobby and THEIR money to do with as they want, right? Yet, people always come around to tell them what they should do or how bad their thoughts are for what they are doing.
I for one will buy the coin and don't care about the sticker, but if you look at my sets, 95% of stuff is cac. (Note: I recently sent out 60-70 coins back to PCGS for secure and they didn't go to cac again) All of the coins except two that I have sent in have NOT beaned and they are probably the two crappiest in my collection.
I've purchased coins and sent for true view and regrade and THOSE got a cac sticker. I feel I have a pretty good eye.
However I am a firm believer in CAC but mostly when it comes to old gold or anything I am spending 30k over.
For example even though I had two people look at my Stella and even my own look at it, the sticker helped feeling a bit safer with doctoring.
@bestday said:
The non CACers remind me of those dealers back in 80s who Hated when TPG coins came on the market.. .. now CAC sharpens the Grading result .... some think it is encroached on their own knowledge, grading ability to get some advantage for buying /selling coins
Nailed it
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Bochiman said:
And, there are those that post saying all their coins MUST be in PCGS.....or MUST be in a certain type of holder (or NOT in certain types of holders).
WHO THE F CARES? Really? It's their hobby and THEIR money to do with as they want, right? Yet, people always come around to tell them what they should do or how bad their thoughts are for what they are doing.
I don't know anybody who has 100% stickered coins.
mark
Well, since there are major dealers who inventory 95% stickered coins, of which probably 90% or more are PCGS, and recommend only those to their clients....that strongly suggests to me the collecting of plastic and stickers. Yes, there happens to be nice/attractive coins in most of those slabs. 95% is close enough to 100% that the difference in negligible.
I've had nice coins rejected by CAC for various reasons. Since I can't go in and "petition" JA in order to change their mind, I have to accept it as a "miss." I learned that lesson back in 1988 when one of my "gem" seated halves would only go 64. I was sort of crushed. A dealer bought that at auction raw for a small premium to what I had paid 5 years earlier (I cracked it out). They also got the 64 grade...as I told them they would. What I didn't know was that they petitioned the TPG and ended up with a 65 grade. A $6K purchase instantly went to $12K and was easy to sell as a top pop. That same coin is very likely in a MS66 holder today.
100% is an absolute. Anything less means there are exceptions and some leeway. Im with Bruce on this and it means Laura will be giving us an earful.
95% is where I will land on CAC coins. 100% on gold.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Imagine the stigma non sticked NGC coins must go through. First thought that comes to mind is why couldn't that coin get into a PCGS holder & second it couldn't get a sticker. Double whammy and the market speaks to it with prices realized. I think this was the driving force of Mark Salzberg's Hail Mary. NGC coins are getting their ears boxed in.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@CommemDude said:
Unfortunately, the beans have imposed themselves on collecting and anyone who is looking at an expensive coin that is bean-less now wonders.... why no bean?
Unfortunate but likely true and would well explain some of the sentiments expressed by the OP and others.
Imagine the stigma non sticked NGC coins must go through. First thought that comes to mind is why couldn't that coin get into a PCGS holder & second it couldn't get a sticker. Double whammy and the market speaks to it with prices realized. I think this was the driving force of grab Salzberg Hail Mary. NGC coins are getting their ears boxed in.
mark
This fact hit the market like a ton of bricks at the auctions in 2009 when choice/gem NGC no sticker type coins were fetching 30-40% less than PCGS. From 1998-2008 that difference was typically only 10-15%. So if MS is addressing this now, he is only 8 years late. The writing on the wall was very clear back then. "Stigma" is a good name for it.
And the unintended consequences are that NGC stickered coins with nice eye appeal is the baby tossed out with the bath water....with those coins often taking a 15-20% discount vs. PCGS stickered coins. In essence, this has affected 10-30 MILL coins in the market place. Most NGC coins can go into PCGS holders without problem. Just send them in to cross at any grade....most will. It's not that they can't....it's just that most owners are not bothering to do that, for various reasons.
Seems we have not had enough of this yet... My thoughts.
CAC provides a valuable service for high end coins that have a significant jump in value. We do not need a mentality that every MS65-67 1881-s Morgan graded by PCGS and NGC in a CAC holder. My view remains that we have lost our common sense on when CAC makes a difference.
Further, I continue to be underwhelmed by the analysis that promotes one TPG over the other in terms of which coin sold for more without a discussion of the coin itself. There is a range within a grade and two coins within the same grade can have a difference that should answer the question why one brought more than the other. Instead, we look solely at stickers and labels in an effort to explain value. As coin collectors, I thought we were better than this.
What further hurts is the inference that a non CAC coin-especially those that are relatively common and affordable-has something wrong with it or a coin that is in an X holder instead of a Y holder. As coin collectors, we should be better than this.
Can we make an effort to restore a little common sense in the hobby and start by looking at the coins and appreciating what is in the holder instead of what is on it?
I see a brighter future for world coins if this type of foolishness continues to takes center stage in the US market.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Most, but not all of the people who bash CAC on these boards, have never taken the time to submit to CAC or taken advantage of their willingness to explain why they don't sticker a particular coin. They have explained to me on a number of mine that did not sticker, I may even disagree, but I also recognize that I am an amateur at best and JA and Bill S. are assuredly not. So I may disagree on a coin but I recognize that I am probably wrong.
One amazing thing about this hobby is everyone thinks they can grade, particularly their own series. How rare is it to see someone say, I stink at grading. The truth is most of us can't grade well enough to succeed in this hobby but walk around deluding ourselves that we know more than we do because many of us have put a good amount of funds into our coins. But to TDN's point, not only are most of us amateurs, we have no idea all of what we are missing, particularly when a coin is messed-with in some fashion.
Buy and collect what you like but along the way, look at a lot of coins and continue to improve your grading skills. PCGS and CAC can help your grading if you approach it properly. Or ignore CAC and/or PCGS -- it's your money and your hobby. Enjoy it as you see fit but don't suggest that new collectors should ignore some available tools.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Comments
I am not a CAC hater. Just don't need them.
Mark - There are those out here that have posted that all their coins must be stickered.
I've seen way to many pictures with the cac sticker framed in-between the reverse and obverse images. That's going out of your way to take a picture of a sticker. I'm with Dimeman.
numismatic-ally speaking, there's nothing like holding a coin raw, either. the coin is what it's all about.
it just so happens i have found some really nice coins with cac stickers. i don't need them either. but i find i like them a lot.
it's kinda like if you like coke, but don't drink pepsi. are pepsi drinkers wrong? are people who prefer rc cola from another planet?
just collect what you like guys. quit starting threads about cac. this is a pcgs coin forum. sheesh!
Latin American Collection
There has never been a CAC thread where Dimeman didn't do this:
There has to be more to his story. No one can be this angry for no reason.
Eye roll. Serious eye roll.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I didn't start this thread and I am not bashing CAC. Just stating how I collect and how I look at CAC.
Everyone should collect what they like and want. This is my last post on this thread unless someone ask me something that has not been addressed here before.
Carry on.
Where can I buy a CAC polo jersey?
Makes sense.
Best, SH
Or also wonders why expensive raw coins aren't slabbed.
I'd like to understand why those who don't like CAC find the need to be so vocal. The are many businesses and business models that I don't like for a variety of reasons and I've never felt the need create public threads bashing them. I'm just not a customer of those businesses.
So if you don't care about CAC stickers on your slabs, then why care about bashing them? Is it that there are CAC'd coins that you want and you feel go for too high prices beyond what you feel the coin is worth and you are willing to pay? If it is all gimmick, then it seems like a wonderful inefficiency in the market to be exploited.
The non CACers remind me of those dealers back in 80s who Hated when TPG coins came on the market.. .. now CAC sharpens the Grading result .... some think it is encroached on their own knowledge, grading ability to get some advantage for buying /selling coins
I only need one opinion of my coins.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Dimeman:
This is a fair enough statement. Hopefully, no one is suggesting that only CAC stickers should be taken into consideration when coin buying decisons are made. Indeed, in many of my articles, including the current one, I have pointed out that some mainstream collecting objectives are not viable if a buyer demands only coins that are stickered. Non-stickered coins must be considered, from a logical perspective.
Rare Gold Coins under $5000 Each, Part 11: ‘With Motto’ Liberty Head ($5 Gold) Half Eagles
Dimeman:
This statement is inaccurate and misleading. Whether or not a determination at CAC is based upon facts or is just an opinion depends upon the specific coin considered and the circumstances. If experts at CAC refuse to sticker an already certified MS-67 coin because they figure that the coin does not have enough eye appeal for a 67 grade, then certainly some opinion is involved, especially if there is no doubt that the coin in question grades AT LEAST MS-66.
In many cases, it is objectively clear that a coin has been doctored. If putty, films, women's make-up, and other substances are added to coins, the presence of such matter is factual, not an opinion. There are people who doctor coins often for the purpose of slipping doctored coins by the graders at grading services. Indeed, there are people who have doctored many coins with the intention of trying to deceive graders at PCGS or ATS.
In many (though not all) cases, experts at CAC can identify consequences of doctoring that other experts have missed. It is just wrong for Dimeman to assert that only opinions are involved.
By mentioning the PCGS lawsuit in 2010, I am NOT implying that the defendants engaged in wrongdoing of any kind. One or all of them may not have broken the law. Furthermore, alleged wrongdoing was never proved in a court of law. An immediate point is that PCGS graders, and all other relevant graders, are sometimes deceived by coin doctors, and that CAC experts are very skilled at identifying doctored coins.
Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors -- Sept. 2010
Click to Read: Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
It seems to me that anyone who buys into the concept of third-party grading should buy into the concept of fourth-party grading for the same reasons.
Similarly, anyone who rejects fourth-party grading should reject third-party grading for the same reasons.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wait, haven't we already plowed this field?
For me, CAC provides an invaluable service and most often I will demand a coin be CAC before I will buy it. I am very good at grading my series, however I cannot detect everything that can be done to coins these days.
The exception is when I know that a coin is original, can identify why JA didn't sticker it and find the overall quality of the coin acceptable in my own eyes.
Here are some examples:
I purchased this coin knowing it had failed CAC for a small reverse scratch. I found it to be pq even with this and eventually CAC agreed with me.
I bought this coin knowing that it had failed CAC for friction on the cheek. JA really won't sticker a gem if it has this issue. I found the coin to be so nice otherwise that I just had to buy it despite knowing it will never sticker.
Same issue with this coin. It's the finest I've ever seen even though just a 63 and IMO friction on the cheek is expected and not an impairment. I suspect this one will sticker upon further review.
TDN - These are perfect examples to what I have been saying. I agree with you totally and would also buy these coins......IF I had the money!
Exactly.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
TDN - These are perfect examples to what I have been saying. I agree with you totally and would also buy these coins......IF I had the money!
Yes - but the difference is that I know and recognize the value CAC provides and purchase them occasionally despite that....instead of flatly proclaiming it is a useless service.
I agree. I wish that there were a way that I could submit a coin directly to the CAC, without the TPG middleman.
TDN, you know that friction will buff right out don'tcha?
Shoveling poop is something I have to do on occasion---I enjoy this more than looking through cases of coins in coin shows that I have been to during the last decade.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Where have I showed anger here? I have merely stated that I won't limit myself to CAC coins. I don't even limit myself to PCGS coins.
I'm not angry nor am I bashing CAC.
It's too bad we can't bring back dueling, it would resolve these conflicts once and for all.
not sure there are many topics left that haven't been plowed over the many beaten dead horses on this or many other forums. how some of the people here did it for 10+ years before my tenure is beyond me.
people want to be active (not saying i'm not one of these), despite nearly every obvious question having been already asked and answered multiple times. what forums need these days is a software to archive and organize more importantly the top 20-40 things asked about. this includes planchet flaws and i'm not picking on those that ask.
i've just noticed on MANY other active forums that they VERY often refer commonly asked questions by innocent posters, to the extensive already answered section for said question(s) and often times, threads are moved to appropriate sections. The US forum here is quite diverse and a top candidate for some archival organizing and referencing. there are many benefits besides the obvious for this. especially for new members whom want to acclimate a little faster.
not referencing the archives and their VAST and IMPRESSIVE research and answers, is to some extent, insulting to those that have made great, major, in-depth, lengthym knowledgeable contributions and those kind of posts are exhaustive, unnecessary etc to do over and over.
my 2c
no matter what someone else is complaining about, debating etc, i always seem to find a way to bring the archives into it. sheesh. If someone made an Alt called "The Archives", we could have some really good fun with it.
Perhaps, "the CAC boogie-man."
is this considered an open-forum again? kinda seems like it.
.
For me, when considering an early gold purchase, it matters not whether there's a CAC bean or not, as long as the coin looks "right" to me. If it has a bean and it looks "right", I buy it.
If it doesn't have a bean, and it looks "right", I buy it....
If it doesn't look "right"... bean or no bean, I don't buy it... plain and simple.
'dude
If you are collecting a coin series seriously, you should be learning enough about them to not need the CAC sticker.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
With that screen name I can relate.
You do not agree with him totally. In fact you do not agree with him at all.
Bruce: "CAC provides an invaluable service and most often I will demand a coin be CAC before I will buy"
Your comments say exactly the opposite, in every single thread that mentions CAC.
I have won grading contests and can grade my series as well as any collector - but I need CAC
You remind me of the Lawyers on "Law & Order". I agreed with the fact that he bought coins he liked even though they did not have stickers. Nice try Wabbit.
Charlottedude
Those coins look like a perfect example. I agree that both photos look like nice coins, however the cac coin you can see from the picture that the coin is dripping luster and original AU while the $10 that is not cac is PQ (looks 53+-55) looking but looks to me hazed over and was most probably cleaned and retoned.
I can definitely agree that both coins are very nice looking and whether or not stickered would deserve a premium, however if you are looking for original and PQ the premium will likely be higher on the first coin.
It has been stated in the past that PQ and pretty coins have always brought strong prices so why is cac needed? One large answer is that the vast majority of buyers of "rare" coins do NOT know what is truly considered PQ and original and can easily be duped to believe something is nice and PQ when in fact it is not.
This all started with early commemoratives. I suggest holding them until they are again in demand, and then submitting to CAC.
did the OP break the rules?
Enough of this attacking both companies and people!
I don't see how additional grading, with more graders, with their differing opinions, makes it any more accurate. It's just more of the same.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Well, since there are major dealers who inventory 95% stickered coins, of which probably 90% or more are PCGS, and recommend only those to their clients....that strongly suggests to me the collecting of plastic and stickers. Yes, there happens to be nice/attractive coins in most of those slabs. 95% is close enough to 100% that the difference in negligible.
I've had nice coins rejected by CAC for various reasons. Since I can't go in and "petition" JA in order to change their mind, I have to accept it as a "miss." I learned that lesson back in 1988 when one of my "gem" seated halves would only go 64. I was sort of crushed. A dealer bought that at auction raw for a small premium to what I had paid 5 years earlier (I cracked it out). They also got the 64 grade...as I told them they would. What I didn't know was that they petitioned the TPG and ended up with a 65 grade. A $6K purchase instantly went to $12K and was easy to sell as a top pop. That same coin is very likely in a MS66 holder today.
Heh......no comment
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
And, there are those that post saying all their coins MUST be in PCGS.....or MUST be in a certain type of holder (or NOT in certain types of holders).
WHO THE F CARES? Really? It's their hobby and THEIR money to do with as they want, right? Yet, people always come around to tell them what they should do or how bad their thoughts are for what they are doing.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I for one will buy the coin and don't care about the sticker, but if you look at my sets, 95% of stuff is cac. (Note: I recently sent out 60-70 coins back to PCGS for secure and they didn't go to cac again) All of the coins except two that I have sent in have NOT beaned and they are probably the two crappiest in my collection.
I've purchased coins and sent for true view and regrade and THOSE got a cac sticker. I feel I have a pretty good eye.
However I am a firm believer in CAC but mostly when it comes to old gold or anything I am spending 30k over.
For example even though I had two people look at my Stella and even my own look at it, the sticker helped feeling a bit safer with doctoring.
Everyone has their own opinion!
My Type Set & My Complete Proof Nickel Set!
Nailed it
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Who? I'm sure there are some. Just don't know who they are. I wouldn't blame them if they did.
mark > @roadrunner said:
100% is an absolute. Anything less means there are exceptions and some leeway. Im with Bruce on this and it means Laura will be giving us an earful.
95% is where I will land on CAC coins. 100% on gold.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Enough already... Let's move on.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Laughing all the way to the bank.
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
One last thing : )
Imagine the stigma non sticked NGC coins must go through. First thought that comes to mind is why couldn't that coin get into a PCGS holder & second it couldn't get a sticker. Double whammy and the market speaks to it with prices realized. I think this was the driving force of Mark Salzberg's Hail Mary. NGC coins are getting their ears boxed in.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Unfortunate but likely true and would well explain some of the sentiments expressed by the OP and others.
Just get the PCGS shirt and put a green bean on it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This fact hit the market like a ton of bricks at the auctions in 2009 when choice/gem NGC no sticker type coins were fetching 30-40% less than PCGS. From 1998-2008 that difference was typically only 10-15%. So if MS is addressing this now, he is only 8 years late. The writing on the wall was very clear back then. "Stigma" is a good name for it.
And the unintended consequences are that NGC stickered coins with nice eye appeal is the baby tossed out with the bath water....with those coins often taking a 15-20% discount vs. PCGS stickered coins. In essence, this has affected 10-30 MILL coins in the market place. Most NGC coins can go into PCGS holders without problem. Just send them in to cross at any grade....most will. It's not that they can't....it's just that most owners are not bothering to do that, for various reasons.
Seems we have not had enough of this yet... My thoughts.
CAC provides a valuable service for high end coins that have a significant jump in value. We do not need a mentality that every MS65-67 1881-s Morgan graded by PCGS and NGC in a CAC holder. My view remains that we have lost our common sense on when CAC makes a difference.
Further, I continue to be underwhelmed by the analysis that promotes one TPG over the other in terms of which coin sold for more without a discussion of the coin itself. There is a range within a grade and two coins within the same grade can have a difference that should answer the question why one brought more than the other. Instead, we look solely at stickers and labels in an effort to explain value. As coin collectors, I thought we were better than this.
What further hurts is the inference that a non CAC coin-especially those that are relatively common and affordable-has something wrong with it or a coin that is in an X holder instead of a Y holder. As coin collectors, we should be better than this.
Can we make an effort to restore a little common sense in the hobby and start by looking at the coins and appreciating what is in the holder instead of what is on it?
I see a brighter future for world coins if this type of foolishness continues to takes center stage in the US market.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Oh boy, here I go...
Most, but not all of the people who bash CAC on these boards, have never taken the time to submit to CAC or taken advantage of their willingness to explain why they don't sticker a particular coin. They have explained to me on a number of mine that did not sticker, I may even disagree, but I also recognize that I am an amateur at best and JA and Bill S. are assuredly not. So I may disagree on a coin but I recognize that I am probably wrong.
One amazing thing about this hobby is everyone thinks they can grade, particularly their own series. How rare is it to see someone say, I stink at grading. The truth is most of us can't grade well enough to succeed in this hobby but walk around deluding ourselves that we know more than we do because many of us have put a good amount of funds into our coins. But to TDN's point, not only are most of us amateurs, we have no idea all of what we are missing, particularly when a coin is messed-with in some fashion.
Buy and collect what you like but along the way, look at a lot of coins and continue to improve your grading skills. PCGS and CAC can help your grading if you approach it properly. Or ignore CAC and/or PCGS -- it's your money and your hobby. Enjoy it as you see fit but don't suggest that new collectors should ignore some available tools.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.