CAC-uandary...
topstuf
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I have 3 5-figure coins I am ....CONTEMPLATING....submitting to CAC.
Still undecided.
Soooo.... I look on the CAC site.
so I quote from that page:
**"The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.
All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered."**
I...know.... they will not divulge whether or not a coin has BEEN previously submitted.
But as I read the above....... whether known ahead of time or not, a rejected coin has the POSSIBILITY of getting stickered if submitted..... SUBSEQUENTLY TO THE ORIGINAL SUBMISSION !
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I have to say that this little blurb in the FAQs has greatly affected my decision making process.
THEY know what has been submitted prior. To say that there is ANY "reconsideration" factor that could apply LATER..... calls into question (in my mind) the validity of submitting in the first place.
???????????
Comments
Agreed!
it's a racket bro. perfect business model, dont sticker some nice coins so you can get the fee again and again and again. If you know a coin has been submitted save your ten bucks or whatever they charge these days. If you don't know if it's been submitted and you are selling it's worth the try, their kool ade is popular and people out there pay up for a drink of it.
Yes but for collector memberships you don't pay for those that don't sticker so a collector member can send a coin in 10x and if it stickers on the 11th you only pay $13.50 for those 11 submissions.
Bullcrap. CAC loses money throughout the process of stickering coins so why would they intentionally not sticker some? They make their money trading in nice coins wholesale - the bigger the pool of eligible coins the better for them.
I scratch my head over why you purchase coins in TPG holders if an organization's willingness to reconsider previous opinions invalidates all of its decisions. PCGS and NGC regrade coins all the time, no?
That's why I call it a "quandary."
The levels of reconsideration past the grading itself just adds to the uncertainty and wisdom of the process.
As I say, I am still ....UNDECIDED!
But becoming less convinced of it.
The more knowledge one has the better they understand the process!
Most don't know and scratch their heads!
Kind of like a private club.
I think if I were you I would pass on sending them to CAC as it seems unlikely you would perceive any value add from the process. If you are happy with your coins, don't bother getting more opinions since your opinion is the one that matters most.
Much ado about nothing.
As mentioned, if submitted as a collector, not a dealer, there is NO charge (ie....you get a refund) if the coin doesn't qualify for at least a green sticker.
Additionally, they WILL (re)consider a coin that is submitted, even if submitted before. They have been fair like that. They don't just summarily reject a coin because it is already in the database as a "fail". There is a likelihood that it won't sticker upon resubmission, but there are plenty of first time coins rejected anyway.
If you know your coins, and you feel there are all-there and not worked on, then you should be fine, right?
If ownership adds points to your coins...well......
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If it were me, it would depend on whether or not I was planning to sell said coins.
If I were contemplating selling said coins, I would attempt to get them in PCGS plastic with CAC stickers. Personal opinions aside, the market values both PCGS plastic and CAC stickers.
If I weren't looking to sell said coins, I would definitely NOT send in to cross or send to CAC. No real upside (assuming you're not selling them or looking to register on a registry) and some real downside (any coin that doesn't cross or doesn't sticker is going to be looked at differently knowing it didn't pass someone else's eye - even if you're happy with it right now...it's human nature).
I currently have a what I consider to be a dynamite AU-58 bust half in NGC plastic with no CAC sticker. I firmly believe it would cross and it would CAC. Currently, I have no plans to cross it or send it in for a sticker. If I decide I want to start a PCGS registry set, I'll send it in to cross. If I decide to sell it, I'll send it in to cross AND send it to CAC. Just my thoughts.
So, if you like a coin and it doesn't sticker, can you handle it?? :-)
Or, how about sending it raw to PCGS for grading, then submit to CAC with a fresh serial number.
I can't imagine CAC is making much money sticking coins considering how cheap their fee is. Agree with TDN on that one.
I would also suggest seeing if they have already passed, stickers get removed. Stranger things have happened.
caccoin.com/look-up-your-coins/
This is golden advice!! I have heard that some people are buying cheaper coins with gold CAC stickers and using some heat and a static shielding bag to remove the sticker undamaged and putting the stickers on coins with big price jumps at the next grade level. Make sure you check!
Seriously, do you think that their business model is to make money of the $12.50 which they charge to review coins, AND not charging collectors for coins which do not stickered.
Latin American Collection
I really don't understand why this is such a moral dilemma for you. Submit them, don't submit them. The market clearly views CAC coins, especially expensive coins with CAC stickers, as more desirable.
The fact that they record the cert numbers is not wholly surprising, in fact it seems quite practical. If a great doctoring job is caught one time it does't mean it would be caught the next. I would imagine that a rejected coin sent through again will get extra scrutiny. As a buyer of CAC material this is a good thing, and for CAC who will buy a stickered coin back if it has inherent problems which they missed, it is a practical thing.
Latin American Collection
It is one of the smartest things thought up in numismatics in the last ten years and one of the worst things we let happen. Send your coins so we can keep a list of the dreck.
I believe that as a collector you get one free shot. If it doesn't sticker upon resubmission you pay. At least it used to be that way.
Do the people who call the shots JA, et. al. even know [unless they've recently seen it] if the coin they are grading is a retread?
Good opinions and more food for consideration.
I have both but the stickers were on the coins when purchased.
I haven't favoured them over the .. "mere"... graded coins until very recently due mainly to the exposure from threads such as this and anecdotal comments from both dealers I trust and ones I know nothing about.
I can see permutations of multiple options and am simply thinking out loud.
The "consensus" TODAY seems to rest on "market" perceptions that we all know are never static from year to year.
Maybe I should flip a...... coin.
The real question coin collectors have to ask themselves is: "Do I want to continue playing this game or is it time to get out and find another hobby?"
Choices.... life is just full of choices.....
At least this type of choice will not be life altering.... Carry on...Cheers, RickO
Coins can get new certification numbers through re-grade and re-consideration, etc., so cac wouldn't know anyway. You could as others suggested submit through a collector account so you only pay for coins that pass. Be sure you workout the shipping/insurance situation so nothing goes awry.
I've seen the claim in the past and am seeing it again a few times in this thread... always find it hard to believe when people repeatedly claim CAC is not making any money on their stickering service... come on! $12.50 for a quick look at a coin and maybe a sticker. How can you NOT be making a profit with that set up?
Even if half the coins don't sticker and you don't charge anything for those... but there's also no real expense other than a little time (a few seconds?).
The only way I can see this as even remotely possible is if CAC stickers a significant portion of the coins they review at a significantly reduced rate. In other words, perhaps the major CAC dealers and auction houses are not really paying $12.50/coin? But at $12.50 per sticker, that's a cash printing business.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I agree; when grading services do a crossover they have to re-slab the coin and get under $20 on economy submissions; all cac has to do is "review" a coin. I had the problem of being told I was not paying for the coins that did not sticker and then getting billed anyway. Plus they buy choice near and over gem coins for under Greysheet as they say in their ads and can resell the hundreds of millions they have bought for whopping profits.
The quandary is the individual collectors who are MAYBE doubting the opinion of the TPG that examines coins in the first place.
THEY establish whether or not the piece is cleaned or damaged and, of course, authentic.
This doubt is nurtured doubt.
Whether it's legitimate doubt is....well.. doubtful.
It's funny to get a coin you like to look at and then have to get someone to tell you whether you should like it or not.
Well, if it's that easy. Become a dealer and make your $MILLIONs flipping coins by buying them cheap. Fwiw, the value of most coins going to CAC is well known by their owners. The sticker adds some more value and liquidity in most cases. And let us know where you can buy $MILLIONs in great coins at under CDN, especially those already stickered. I want to get in on that.
Most people should realize that after a coin leaves CAC, it's still the same coin. There's no magic formula for making $MILLIONs in the coin business....and certainly not placing a sticker on it. JA would be a very successful coin dealer without CAC....still making $MILLIONs.
Why would they explain this to you? How did they explain it to you? I see no upside in CAC telling you this in the first place.
I remember someone mentioning elsewhere in another thread, that if you submit several of one kind of coin (let's say six Walkers) that the potential for obtaining the bean on several of them are not good, since JA MAY be consciously or subconsciously judging them against each other. If you submit one of any type, the odds MAY be better.
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This is commonly known as "setting up the submission" and some use it when sending coins to the TPGs too.
They issue account credits. You can request a refund check at any time. After one year, they will automatically send you a check.
Good point! (memo to self...pick up eggs and milk)
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I can't get enough beans, I can't get enough beans. Why is my stomach so upset all the time?
TDN is correct in that John Albanese makes his money wholesaling (expensive) coins. He is not making a business in stickering coins. The sticker means he may be interested in buying a particular coin at a given time.
Very few dealers want to carry much inventory. They want to move their coins, and quickly. It could very well be that someone had a coin that JA couldn't move quickly and he wasn't interested in buying it, and a year later, the situation has changed.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The opinion of PCGS is good enough for me.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I understand why CAC does not publish a list of slabs that did not sticker.
When they first started they did not want to publish which TPG slabbed coins failed to sticker and make CAC an enemy of PCGS and NGC.
The theory is if you have nothing nice to say about a rejected slab then better to say nothing at all. After all, similar to the "like" button in facebook.
CAC believes in the philosophy that just because a graded coin did not sticker does not mean that it is a terrible slabbed coin but not necessarily solid for the grade.
They are trying to add value to the slabbed coins that they like to buy sight unseen, not damage the value of the ones that failed their test.
Once in a blue moon I do not agree with JA on his judgement call and he understands how I feel but usually sticks to his gun and I stick to mine!
But 99% of the time I agree with him.
There are definitely positives with the green bean; if you get it your coin is in greater demand among the higher end group of collectors who are looking for quality first. What percentage of classic US coins pass both regular grading with PCGS and NGC and then also cac? 20%? Reject rate of all submitted coins to PCGS is probably 20-30%, then of the coins that cac sees you have an over 50% reject rate. There are many head scratchers, coins you don't think will grade and do, and those you think are nice no problem that get rejected. Same thing with cac, I have sent along some coins I did not think would bean that did.