FAKE thread? Post your forgeries, contemporary counterfeits, and other nefarious numismatics.

Weiss · December 21, 2016 10:49AM

The more interesting or historical the better. Also, why do you still have 'em, if you do. I bought this raw for melt and sent it along with a bunch of other stuff. I think it's cool and would have bought it even in this body bag.

asheland · December 21, 2016 1:11PM

Counterfeits are interesting to study.

oih82w8 · December 21, 2016 2:15PM

I have my Dansco 7070 a little over 3/4 full of chinese fakes, that I use to play "show and tell" with family and friends. Here are a couple scans of the pages;

1630Boston · December 21, 2016 2:28PM

Educational stuff for sure.

CascadeChris · December 21, 2016 3:36PM

A couple of contemporary counterfeit electrotypes...

Boosibri · December 21, 2016 3:52PM

Contemporary Counterfeit 2R - Thanks Dave W

Write-up from Dave' Making the Grade

Kleeberg 76A-M17. Struck in copper. It is the only variety known with the "magic" (to US coin collectors) 1776 date. A beautiful (by counterfeit 2 reales standards) milk chocolate brown color, and the finest example of this rarity-7 die variety known to me. It is the plate coin in John Lorenzo's update to John Kleeberg's attribution guide to this series. (685).

ChangeInHistory · December 21, 2016 4:34PM

AmazonX · December 21, 2016 9:43PM

1801 Gold Eagle, Ex Dave Wnuck

1839 $5 Classic Head 'Fantasy' Date, (Production ended in 1838, Liberty head design started in 1839)

1851Liberty Quarter Eagle, Ex Dave Wnuck

coinsarefun · December 21, 2016 10:27PM

DancingFire · December 22, 2016 12:47AM

One of the best counterfeit $10 Lib. I have ever seen. I paid $310 for the coin and a few dealers offered me b/t $1500-1650 for the coin. I told them it is a counterfeit coin and their jaws hit the floor.

Twobitcollector · December 22, 2016 2:41AM

ricko · December 22, 2016 4:53AM

@oih82w8... that is a great idea... quite a collection. Some really impressive counterfeits shown here... The only counterfeit I have is a 1902 CC Morgan I purchased out of an antique shop - knowing it was a counterfeit. Cheers, RickO

oih82w8 · December 22, 2016 7:00AM

Here is another page;

Page 3

1630Boston · December 22, 2016 7:30AM

I must admit, based on the photos I might be fooled by some of them. I guess that's a good reason to see them in hand.
Thanks for sharing them with us.

COINS MAKE CENTS · December 22, 2016 7:58AM

I like the dansco idea pretty neat. It's unfortunate that there are that many fakes out there though

Windycity · December 22, 2016 8:04AM

As much as I hate to admit it, this is one I got burned on... very deceptive counterfeit.

Insider2 · December 22, 2016 8:22AM

@coinsarefun said:

I'm a counterfeit snob. I don't consider any crude counterfeits such as most of the granular, ill executed Chinese stuff to be more than novelties. Show me an example of the Draped Bust, Trade dollar, or Large cents that passed the TPGS** at first **and that is a real collectible counterfeit. Deceptive modern counterfeit gold (produced after 1998) with the proper weight and color or early Colonial and Large cent electros are nice also.

You have some great fakes! If you should ever get the time/desire to post magnified photos of a few of them, it would be very educational for all of us.

steveben · December 22, 2016 8:28AM

both the indian $2.5 and liberty $10 look pretty legit. i would love to see better photos of those.

i really like the dansco idea. just make sure to explain somewhere in the album those are fakes.

1630Boston · December 22, 2016 8:36AM

I'm glad I don't have any pictures to post here, at least_ I hope_ none of my pictures should be posted here.

CascadeChris · December 22, 2016 8:41AM

A "Black Cabinet" 00-00 Dansco. I'd like to see that in gold flake lettering

oih82w8 · December 22, 2016 9:10AM

...and another page...yes, that is an 1894-S Dime...soarta kinda.

Page 2

ranshdow · December 22, 2016 11:06AM

oih82w8- no Henning nickel yet?

oih82w8 · December 22, 2016 11:53AM

@ranshdow said:
oih82w8- no Henning nickel yet?

IF I were to acquire a Henning Nickel I would not put in with the chinese fakes...unless it was a chinese fake Henning.

coinhack · December 22, 2016 12:48PM

@oih82w8 - Holy smokes, that is a great set.

I was looking at the set and thinking that you might have to make your own coins to fill the modern clad holes but then I remembered that the Chinese were sending tons of them back to the U.S. government for redemption claiming that they were found in junk cars that had been sent to China for scrap.

So, there you go. You're welcome.

crazyhounddog · December 22, 2016 12:56PM

I have no idea who made this counterfeit 25-D Buff but they did a pretty damn good job. I think everyone should have one GOOD counterfeit coin of the series they collect just to remind yourself that they are out there and to be ware. This is an amazing counterfeit Buff. At least the reverse....

COINS MAKE CENTS · December 22, 2016 1:02PM

Wow that 25 d nickel does look pretty good

oih82w8 · December 22, 2016 1:15PM

Page 1

You may notice that the Coronet Head Large Cent is just a bit smaller than the hole in the 7070. I may have to use the "coppers" as pocket pieces to "brown 'em up a bit".

cardinal · December 22, 2016 1:37PM

@Insider2 said:

I'm a counterfeit snob. I don't consider any crude counterfeits such as most of the granular, ill executed Chinese stuff to be more than novelties. Show me an example of the Draped Bust, Trade dollar, or Large cents that passed the TPGS** at first **and that is a real collectible counterfeit. Deceptive modern counterfeit gold (produced after 1998) with the proper weight and color or early Colonial and Large cent electros are nice also.

You have some great fakes! If you should ever get the time/desire to post magnified photos of a few of them, it would be very educational for all of us.

This was sold for $88,000 to a notable coin dealer at auction in 1980, and re-sold at auction to another notable coin dealer for a lesser price in the down market of 1987 --

cardinal · December 22, 2016 1:58PM

One of these is a genuine 1794 Silver Dollar, and the other two are die-struck fakes. The genuine specimen and one of the fakes were BOTH authenticated as genuine by ANACS. The second fake was deemed genuine by Heritage Auctions when it was sold by them a number of years ago. (When I later discovered that second one to be a fake, Heritage reached out to the buyer to buy it back.)

Can you tell which one is the original one, and which are the fakes?

Weiss · December 22, 2016 2:05PM

No way. I would never know which of those were real and which were fake.

coinhack · December 22, 2016 3:07PM

@cardinal
The first coin looks like the original and the other two are copies. Or could be the same coin in extreme lighting.

cardinal · December 22, 2016 3:31PM

@coinhack said:
@cardinal
The first coin looks like the original and the other two are copies. Or could be the same coin in extreme lighting.

They are three distinct pieces! Two were authenticated by ANACS, and were found to have the precise metallic content (down to the minor trace elements) of U.S. silver coins of that era, and thus both were deemed genuine coins.

coinhack · December 22, 2016 4:33PM

Ok. I am just going on the fact that they have the exact same hits, adjustment marks, etc. So, I am going with my first guess that coin number 1 is the original and the other two are copies made from coin number 1.

TennesseeDave · December 22, 2016 4:44PM

TennesseeDave · December 22, 2016 4:45PM

TennesseeDave · December 22, 2016 4:48PM

Cardinal, that 1796 half would fool most people myself included.

drwstr123 · December 22, 2016 4:52PM

wooglout · December 22, 2016 5:37PM

Cardinal - I would say the third coin is real if it's the worst looking coin, as it would be the cheapest genuine host. I'm probably wrong though. Neat exercise btw.

KollectorKing · December 22, 2016 7:14PM

Aegis3 · December 22, 2016 9:51PM

@cardinal said:
One of these is a genuine 1794 Silver Dollar, and the other two are die-struck fakes. The genuine specimen and one of the fakes were BOTH authenticated as genuine by ANACS. The second fake was deemed genuine by Heritage Auctions when it was sold by them a number of years ago. (When I later discovered that second one to be a fake, Heritage reached out to the buyer to buy it back.)

Can you tell which one is the original one, and which are the fakes?

>
[images removed for space]

Without looking below further, I'll say the top one is the genuine one while the lower two are fakes. I'm confident that the lowest one is fake, tho I'll be honest that deciding between the other two was much more difficult. And the way I made the final decision is not a good one: the top photo looked like a Heritage photo while the middle one was a b/w obviously from some other source. And since I'm assuming the top is the genuine Reiver coin, Heritage would have sold it.

coinsarefun · December 22, 2016 11:44PM

Here is a little box of chocolates...... :_)

lkenefic · December 23, 2016 7:12AM

Wow... well, since I have no money down on this lottery... I agree that the first coin is real and the others are fake.

Koinicker · December 23, 2016 7:27AM

Another Ex. Dave Wnuck piece

Koinicker · December 23, 2016 7:29AM

These are cool too!

Koinicker · December 23, 2016 7:30AM

Lots of 1875 varieties

Koinicker · December 23, 2016 7:31AM

Copper counterfeits are notoriously rare!

mt_msla · December 23, 2016 7:36AM

Thankfully I own no forgeries!

lkenefic · December 23, 2016 7:43AM

How common are actual bar cents, as opposed to the ubiquitous fakes I see?

Koinicker · December 23, 2016 7:47AM

@lkenefic said:
How common are actual bar cents, as opposed to the ubiquitous fakes I see?

1 in 100 - 1,000 (give or take)

Mark · December 23, 2016 7:51AM

Cardinal:

I figure that a die struck counterfeit can't add detail relative to the real coin. Of course, the counterfeiter can add dings or try to strengthen the details but I'd expect that experts would be able to determine that details had been added. So that suggests to me that the coin with the most detail is the genuine one. And I have been trying to decide which coin has the most detail. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but I'll guess that coin 2 is the genuine one. Now, that said, I surely hope that you will tell us and not just torture everyone by leaving us hanging!

How did you make the determination?

cardinal · December 23, 2016 8:46AM

@Mark said:
Cardinal:

I figure that a die struck counterfeit can't add detail relative to the real coin. Of course, the counterfeiter can add dings or try to strengthen the details but I'd expect that experts would be able to determine that details had been added. So that suggests to me that the coin with the most detail is the genuine one. And I have been trying to decide which coin has the most detail. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but I'll guess that coin 2 is the genuine one. Now, that said, I surely hope that you will tell us and not just torture everyone by leaving us hanging!

How did you make the determination?

Your methodology is precisely correct! However, the details you were evaluating were the raised details of the design, not the incused details of the adjustment marks, handling marks and planchet defects. If you look carefully, you will see that all three have the same adjustment marks, handling marks and planchet defects; however they are the largest and most prominent on the first specimen (especially those at 1:30-3:00 on the reverse). Those marks are somewhat more muted on the second specimen, and even more muted on the third.

The first specimen is the genuine coin. The second specimen was purchased by Jules Reiver long, long ago, with no pedigree attached. Later, a friend of his said he had found the pedigree and showed Jules the auction catalog it had appeared in. The thing was, though, Jules already had his "coin" for years before that other auction took place, so obviously they were physically different specimens, with one being genuine and one being fake. Eventually, the other one (the first specimen in my post) came up for auction again, and Jules Reiver purchased it, knowing that way he would have the genuine one! Comparing them side by side, he and others concluded which one was the real deal. Fortunately for Jules, the third specimen did not come up at auction until well after that; otherwise, he might have purchased the third one instead, and been left with two fakes!

FAKE thread? Post your forgeries, contemporary counterfeits, and other nefarious numismatics.

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