I'm a counterfeit snob. I don't consider any crude counterfeits such as most of the granular, ill executed Chinese stuff to be more than novelties. Show me an example of the Draped Bust, Trade dollar, or Large cents that passed the TPGS** at first **and that is a real collectible counterfeit. Deceptive modern counterfeit gold (produced after 1998) with the proper weight and color or early Colonial and Large cent electros are nice also.
You have some great fakes! If you should ever get the time/desire to post magnified photos of a few of them, it would be very educational for all of us.
This was sold for $88,000 to a notable coin dealer at auction in 1980, and re-sold at auction to another notable coin dealer for a lesser price in the down market of 1987 --
This one fooled everyone for awhile! It was written up by ANA in the 1980's, however, IMO they identified it as a cast rather than the die struck counterfeit that it actually is. Yours is a beautiful example of a State-of-the-Art" (at the time) extremely deceptive counterfeit. Members here can image how much more deceptive the counterfeits are today - over thirty years later! Wear one of these old fakes down to the grade of VG and it is still worth 10K as a genuine coin so I'll never have one in my collection
I thought this was a trick question. The first thing I noticed was each of the coins has the same major marks, therefore, each was a fake!
I am going to hold to this opinion. All three are fake. The only thing that might cause me to change my opinion (worth nothing to you guys here) is to see the edge of the "genuine" specimen.
I have seen a certified Flowing Hair dollar that was returned to one of the top two TPGS's for review. The coin was a counterfeit. I was shown a photo of the "so-called" exact coin the fake die was made from in a major auction service catalogue. I know that as far back as the 1970's the counterfeiter's could transfer even minute die polish from a genuine coin used as their model so anything is possible today. I do like the reasoning posted about the sharpness of the adjustment marks.
I'm a counterfeit snob. I don't consider any crude counterfeits such as most of the granular, ill executed Chinese stuff to be more than novelties. Show me an example of the Draped Bust, Trade dollar, or Large cents that passed the TPGS** at first **and that is a real collectible counterfeit. Deceptive modern counterfeit gold (produced after 1998) with the proper weight and color or early Colonial and Large cent electros are nice also.
You have some great fakes! If you should ever get the time/desire to post magnified photos of a few of them, it would be very educational for all of us.
This was sold for $88,000 to a notable coin dealer at auction in 1980, and re-sold at auction to another notable coin dealer for a lesser price in the down market of 1987 --
This one fooled everyone for awhile! It was written up by ANA in the 1980's, however, IMO they identified it as a cast rather than the die struck counterfeit that it actually is. Yours is a beautiful example of a State-of-the-Art" (at the time) extremely deceptive counterfeit. Members here can image how much more deceptive the counterfeits are today - over thirty years later! Wear one of these old fakes down to the grade of VG and it is still worth 10K as a genuine coin so I'll never have one in my collection
Looks good to me . Any diagnostics? I love this issue and die struck counterfeits have certainly not flooded the market since then.
This was sold for $88,000 to a notable coin dealer at auction in 1980, and re-sold at auction to another notable coin dealer for a lesser price in the down market of 1987 --
This one fooled everyone for awhile! It was written up by ANA in the 1980's, however, IMO they identified it as a cast rather than the die struck counterfeit that it actually is. Yours is a beautiful example of a State-of-the-Art" (at the time) extremely deceptive counterfeit. Members here can image how much more deceptive the counterfeits are today - over thirty years later! Wear one of these old fakes down to the grade of VG and it is still worth 10K as a genuine coin so I'll never have one in my collection
Looks good to me . Any diagnostics? I love this issue and die struck counterfeits have certainly not flooded the market since then.
All the 94's look fake.
This is the actual coin from which the dies were made to strike the fake 1796 half dollar:
As you can see, the lint marks on the neck of Miss Liberty and fields all match up between the original coin (graded by PCGS as SP63) and the die-struck fake.
This one came in a fake anacs "details" slab (for the rim damage on the obv).
eventually got my money back, kept the fake, and anacs got the fake slab for their reference collection.
eBay, of course.
Very nice. Was this the one that was gold plated? Love the 1818 cent. 1875 counterfeit shield nickel? You can never go wrong with that one. I heard that there is a shield nickel collector who has a hand engraved 1875 counterfeit graded by PCGS.
This was sold for $88,000 to a notable coin dealer at auction in 1980, and re-sold at auction to another notable coin dealer for a lesser price in the down market of 1987 --
This one fooled everyone for awhile! It was written up by ANA in the 1980's, however, IMO they identified it as a cast rather than the die struck counterfeit that it actually is. Yours is a beautiful example of a State-of-the-Art" (at the time) extremely deceptive counterfeit. Members here can image how much more deceptive the counterfeits are today - over thirty years later! Wear one of these old fakes down to the grade of VG and it is still worth 10K as a genuine coin so I'll never have one in my collection
Looks good to me . Any diagnostics? I love this issue and die struck counterfeits have certainly not flooded the market since then.
All the 94's look fake.
This is the actual coin from which the dies were made to strike the fake 1796 half dollar:
As you can see, the lint marks on the neck of Miss Liberty and fields all match up between the original coin (graded by PCGS as SP63) and the die-struck fake.
You are slowly winning me over. If this coin is a fake we are all out of business. Now, I have two questions that I hope someone can answer. Please humor me for questioning the experts who are way above my pay level and expertise.
How do we know this is the coin the counterfeit die was made from? Yes, I know the lint marks but I'm back to the dollars posted above with all the same marks. Did it just pop up on the numismatic market without a pedigree? just now as I look at the sharpness of this piece and compare marks on the fake from the ANA book there are marks on the fake that are not on this coin so I'm being foolish and this has to be 100% genuine.
What method was used to copy the original coin and leave the "genuine" original coin in what looks like pristine condition? If a soft mold was made which should not harm the original I should expect some distortion on the fakes due to the transfer process.
Very nice. Was this the one that was gold plated? Love the 1818 cent. 1875 counterfeit shield nickel? You can never go wrong with that one. I heard that there is a shield nickel collector who has a hand engraved 1875 counterfeit graded by PCGS.
Yup, its gold plated. There are loads of contemporary counterfeits out there graded by PCGS; I've seen many fewer in NGC, ANACS, and other lesser TPGs. So, I'm not surprised an 1875 Shield nickel slipped by.
I have a large and growing file of pictures of this stuff. I could go on with the photos until you get sick of them.
Here is the scariest one of all. This "1796 half dollar" was sold in at least one major auction in the 1960s before it was sent to PCGS and found to be a counterfeit. By the photos this is one heck of a copy of a very rare and expensive coin. I have never seen this item in person.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
I have a large and growing file of pictures of this stuff. I could go on with the photos until you get sick of them.
Here is the scariest one of all. This "1796 half dollar" was sold in at least one major auction in the 1960s before it was sent to PCGS and found to be a counterfeit. By the photos this is one heck of a copy of a very rare and expensive coin. I have never seen this item in person.
That's the piece that I have. It was acquired by Leo Young sometime before 1964, when he passed on bidding on the real one, noting that he thought the one he had already was better! Leo Young's collection ultimately was sold during 1980, riding the upturn from the Garrett sales, before the coin markets turned down. The fake ended up being an astoundingly good investment for the astute dealer that purchased it from Rarcoa's session of Auction'80. While that dealer was never able to sell it retail, and actually took a loss when it was re-auctioned in 1986, he got his full original 1980 purchase price back after it was identified as a fake. So...the fake kept its full $80K value, while everything else in the numismatic marketplace declined in value during the later 1980's!
The fake, itself, went back to Leo Young, who passed it on to his son, who sold it to a noted bust half collector. That collector sold his collection through Sheridan Downey, and I have owned it ever since.
Fake gold and silver (mostly quarters and halves) in circulation was a serious problem for merchants, causing them to spend time weighing coins and/or making test cuts. In the mid-nineteenth century, a number of U. S. manufacturers produced mechanical counterfeit detectors that could be easily used to assess weight, diameter, and thickness. The image below is of one of the Allender rockers (brass, ca. 8 inches long, made in 1851-1853).
This piece was designed for gold coins in circulation at that time ($1, $2.5, $5, $10, $20).
Below is an 1870's-vintage coin rocker for quarters and halves:
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
This is the actual coin from which the dies were made to strike the fake 1796 half dollar:
As you can see, the lint marks on the neck of Miss Liberty and fields all match up between the original coin (graded by PCGS as SP63) and the die-struck fake.
Having to match up lint marks on the original coin with those on the fake make counterfeit detection somewhere between really hard and impossible. It's like comparing the location of scratches on the genuine coin and the counterfeit.
Comparing the photos reveals that the fake lost a fair amount of sharpness, but that's tough note if you have never seen the real thing and if you have seen it don't a photographic memory to boot. That's why I labeled this as the scariest counterfeit of all in my virtual collection.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Koinicker said:
Copper counterfeits are notoriously rare!
Especially when they have 14 stars on the obverse. There was another specimen--made using the same pair of crude dies--in the Dan Holmes Part III Sale.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Koinicker said:
Copper counterfeits are notoriously rare!
Especially when they have 14 stars on the obverse. There was another specimen--made using the same pair of crude dies--in the Dan Holmes Part III Sale.
Comments
This one fooled everyone for awhile! It was written up by ANA in the 1980's, however, IMO they identified it as a cast rather than the die struck counterfeit that it actually is. Yours is a beautiful example of a State-of-the-Art" (at the time) extremely deceptive counterfeit. Members here can image how much more deceptive the counterfeits are today - over thirty years later! Wear one of these old fakes down to the grade of VG and it is still worth 10K as a genuine coin so I'll never have one in my collection
Late to the party as usual...
I thought this was a trick question. The first thing I noticed was each of the coins has the same major marks, therefore, each was a fake!
I am going to hold to this opinion. All three are fake. The only thing that might cause me to change my opinion (worth nothing to you guys here) is to see the edge of the "genuine" specimen.
I have seen a certified Flowing Hair dollar that was returned to one of the top two TPGS's for review. The coin was a counterfeit. I was shown a photo of the "so-called" exact coin the fake die was made from in a major auction service catalogue. I know that as far back as the 1970's the counterfeiter's could transfer even minute die polish from a genuine coin used as their model so anything is possible today. I do like the reasoning posted about the sharpness of the adjustment marks.
My YouTube Channel
Looks good to me
. Any diagnostics? I love this issue and die struck counterfeits have certainly not flooded the market since then.
All the 94's look fake.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
This is the actual coin from which the dies were made to strike the fake 1796 half dollar:
As you can see, the lint marks on the neck of Miss Liberty and fields all match up between the original coin (graded by PCGS as SP63) and the die-struck fake.
This one came in a fake anacs "details" slab (for the rim damage on the obv).
eventually got my money back, kept the fake, and anacs got the fake slab for their reference collection.
eBay, of course.
Obv. photo.
Very nice. Was this the one that was gold plated? Love the 1818 cent. 1875 counterfeit shield nickel? You can never go wrong with that one. I heard that there is a shield nickel collector who has a hand engraved 1875 counterfeit graded by PCGS.
You are slowly winning me over. If this coin is a fake we are all out of business. Now, I have two questions that I hope someone can answer. Please humor me for questioning the experts who are way above my pay level and expertise.
How do we know this is the coin the counterfeit die was made from? Yes, I know the lint marks but I'm back to the dollars posted above with all the same marks. Did it just pop up on the numismatic market without a pedigree? just now as I look at the sharpness of this piece and compare marks on the fake from the ANA book there are marks on the fake that are not on this coin so I'm being foolish and this has to be 100% genuine.
What method was used to copy the original coin and leave the "genuine" original coin in what looks like pristine condition? If a soft mold was made which should not harm the original I should expect some distortion on the fakes due to the transfer process.
Yup, its gold plated. There are loads of contemporary counterfeits out there graded by PCGS; I've seen many fewer in NGC, ANACS, and other lesser TPGs. So, I'm not surprised an 1875 Shield nickel slipped by.
I have a large and growing file of pictures of this stuff. I could go on with the photos until you get sick of them.
Here is the scariest one of all. This "1796 half dollar" was sold in at least one major auction in the 1960s before it was sent to PCGS and found to be a counterfeit. By the photos this is one heck of a copy of a very rare and expensive coin. I have never seen this item in person.
That's the piece that I have. It was acquired by Leo Young sometime before 1964, when he passed on bidding on the real one, noting that he thought the one he had already was better! Leo Young's collection ultimately was sold during 1980, riding the upturn from the Garrett sales, before the coin markets turned down. The fake ended up being an astoundingly good investment for the astute dealer that purchased it from Rarcoa's session of Auction'80. While that dealer was never able to sell it retail, and actually took a loss when it was re-auctioned in 1986, he got his full original 1980 purchase price back after it was identified as a fake. So...the fake kept its full $80K value, while everything else in the numismatic marketplace declined in value during the later 1980's!
The fake, itself, went back to Leo Young, who passed it on to his son, who sold it to a noted bust half collector. That collector sold his collection through Sheridan Downey, and I have owned it ever since.
I have one more page in my 7070;
Page 5
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Vintage Morgan Dollar (silver) from hand-cut dies (the only one that I am aware of):
PCGS 1893-O Morgan Silver Dollar, "Privately-Made" VAM-6 (reverse hub type of 1900, wide gap between Eagle's neck and wing):
1896-O Morgan Silver Dollar, "micro-o" VAM-4, finest known
non-silver (tin/zinc/copper) 1877 Seated Liberty half dollar from hand-cut dies:
These fooled a friend of mine with an antique shop. Sadly he took quite a loss buying these fake CC's.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
This one is pretty bad...
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Wow.... for sure some of the above would fool me..... great thread. Cheers, RickO
Fake gold and silver (mostly quarters and halves) in circulation was a serious problem for merchants, causing them to spend time weighing coins and/or making test cuts. In the mid-nineteenth century, a number of U. S. manufacturers produced mechanical counterfeit detectors that could be easily used to assess weight, diameter, and thickness. The image below is of one of the Allender rockers (brass, ca. 8 inches long, made in 1851-1853).
This piece was designed for gold coins in circulation at that time ($1, $2.5, $5, $10, $20).
Below is an 1870's-vintage coin rocker for quarters and halves:
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
1902-o micro 'o' purchased off ebay before PCGS stopped grading them.
Thought I had scored big, since graded ones were going for big bucks.
WOW! I love this one! But of course, there are many cool counterfeits in this thread~!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The silver wash is gone now, and the weight is 20% too low.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Having to match up lint marks on the original coin with those on the fake make counterfeit detection somewhere between really hard and impossible. It's like comparing the location of scratches on the genuine coin and the counterfeit.
Comparing the photos reveals that the fake lost a fair amount of sharpness, but that's tough note if you have never seen the real thing and if you have seen it don't a photographic memory to boot. That's why I labeled this as the scariest counterfeit of all in my virtual collection.
Based on all of the fakes listed in this thread we could open up a community store front on AliExpress.
Especially when they have 14 stars on the obverse. There was another specimen--made using the same pair of crude dies--in the Dan Holmes Part III Sale.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Plate with gold and produce a reeded edge: 5 cents to 5 dollars
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This contemporary counterfeit half shouldn't have fooled too many merchants.
Lance.
Fantastic thread. Most of us tend to focus on the grades that TPGs hand out. Authentication is realistically more important.
Probably accepted by a teenager of the day, working at the Mickey D's equivalent
Nice note on the 14 stars and Dan Holmes!
You gotta love the date on this bust half.
Lance.
Fooled me once.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Thanks Rick cause I was thinking the same thing.