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CAC NGC gold 1839 $5 - Would this cross to PCGS? At what grade?
claychaser
Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭✭
I'm thinking more 35-40 ish, but CAC says XF 45:
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
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I'd give it a 70% chance at crossing at 45, 25% at 40 and 5% for anything else
I'd see it as a 40
Latin American Collection
Looks like a 40/40+ to me.
I doubt it would get a 45.
It would cross at 40, IMO.
Lance.
I agree with the others who've said 40 at PCGS. Seems like one of those situations where obverse/reverse would get split grades, obverse 35-40ish, reverse 40-45ish, leading most of the time to a whole coin grade of 40 because the reverse is too nice to give the overall coin a 35 and the obverse is too worn to give the overall coin a 45.
Agree with mvs
Latin American Collection
From the feedback I'm reading it appears this coin would not cross at PCGS. That makes perfect sense to me. Was CAC then having a bad day or am I missing something?
CAC thought it was worth 45 money. Don't know about the cross but I like it a lot and can see why it stickered at CAC.
CAC does not intend its sticker to mean that the coin would cross to PCGS 45. If I have read all the other CAC interpretation threads correctly, CAC stickering this coin means that they would buy it as an NGC 45. If the OP crossed it to PCGS and somehow got it crossed at 45, there's a big debate on these forums whether they'd actually put a bean back on it. If the OP crossed it to PCGS 35 or PCGS 40, CAC would also, by the same logic, not feel obligated to then give it a gold sticker for being undergraded.
Did you buy the coin from DW yesterday or are you just curious???
MVS has it right.
I agree with mvs7...CAC does not have any influence on what another TPG may grade a coin as...They have simply said they agree with the current grade. Cheers, RickO
Example of PCGS/CAC certified: https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1233-4466.s https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1839-5-xf45-pcgs/a/1202-4650.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1839-5-xf45-pcgs-pcgs-population-25-63-ngc-census-32-166-mintage-118-143-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem-free/a/1167-9356.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1839-5-xf45-pcgs/a/1108-3206.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1839-5-xf45-pcgs-the-devices-are-richly-detailed-while-a-couple-of-the-left-side-stars-are-flatly-struck-luster-glimmer/a/304-7585.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
What criteria are being used in judging between XF40-45 examples?
I wouldn't buy this as a 45. There's just too much wear on the obverse. If you compare with sold lots on Heritage, almost all of them have far more hair detail. Yeah, the reverse is nicer, but saying it makes the entire coin a 45 ignores the obverse.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
There should be no debate. CAC does not have separate grading standards for the services; they have a single standard that is the CAC standard. Either the coin makes the standard or does not make the standard.
If the coin went in as a crossover, without any type of restoration involved at PCGS, then the owner may bring the submission paperwork originally sent to PCGS to CAC that shows the old NGC cert number on the form as well as the returned NGC cert together with the returned PCGS paperwork from the same invoice showing the coin in the same grade in the PCGS holder. If the returned PCGS paperwork is not present, then looking up the submission number online will show the new PCGS grade that should match the old NGC cert number. This should be enough to warrant an immediate sticker from CAC.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
So far, every coin I've submitted to CAC that crossed at grade at PCGS (and originally had CAC approval at that grade in the NGC holder) has been re-stickered by CAC.
Does anyone have a counter-factual example?
On any coins that I have crossed from NGC to PCGS and that had a CAC sticker prior to the cross, I have simply done as I outlined above and bring the PCGS invoice to CAC along with the old NGC cert and they can confirm for themselves it is the same coin that went directly from one service to another in the holder. These coins have always received a new CAC sticker.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
i'd call it a 40
I have a hard time accepting it as a 45 although the expert does.
I'd leave it its current holder in this case but as a rule I feel a NGC stickered 45 equals a PCGS stickered 45.
I think that it is a 40 coin.
The coin does not look like an EF-40 to me. When I first looked at it, my thought was VF-30 or 35. The wear is really obvious, and lot of the hair detail is missing from the obvervse.
I would not try cross unless it would upgrade. I definitely would not let them crack it out for lower or same grade (would lose CAC sticker?). The CAC sticker tells me they agree with the EF45 grade; otherwise what would be the point of them putting it there. its just fine in the holder its in, do not see it upgrading to AU50. NGC reflects the coins value at $1100 which seems like a good asking price IMO. CW Trends is $1100 EF40.
As far as those folks who disagree with the grade, its a moot issue just ignore them (or refer them to CAC) as CAC has already indicated its agreement with the coins grade.
I might try bump it up to $1250 because of the CAC sticker.
It can grade anything from VF35 to XF45 at PCGS or NGC. I suspect 40 is the most likely grade. But you can't rule out 35 or 45 either. Submit it 10 times and you could see all 3 grades.
I don't fully agree that CAC assigns the same standards for a PCGS or NGC coin. When they sticker an NGC coin they are saying they will buy that as solid for the grade NGC XF45. That doesn't mean they would pay PCGS 45 or even PCGS XF40 money. In essence, CAC is bidding on the holder too. You can't separate that from the value/grade of the coin. No one else here pays the same money for NGC XF45 vs. PCGS XF45 unless you are absolutely sure you can cross/crack it and get the 45 grade.
No better than VF 30. It was probably given the higher grade because it has nice surfaces. I could never collect gold today as I don't agree with any of the services. They are too liberal with gold for me.
Interesting, some of the replies here. Here is what happened when I asked CAC what they would pay for a certain coin and grade. They gave a price. They did not ask whether PCGS or NGC. Maybe it's changed now. I've always wondered where some of the information comes from on what CAC is "thinking."
I would rather have the same opportunity as NGC and CAC to see the coin in hand before I cast criticism of the NGC and CAC view of this one. I suspect the coin looks better in hand and likely has wonderful original surfaces. The coin may have more lustre than what can be captured in the image. And should that prove to be true, 45 may be appropriate.
I would leave this coin as it is. If the coin does not work for you, look for one in PCGS plastic
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Whoa. VF30 would be a very conservative grade for that one.
Go back to the '90's, and you would not be saying that. Grade-flation
Whoa. VF30 would be a very conservative grade for that one.
Go back to the '90's, and you would not be saying that. Grade-flation
Looking at some of those VF classic gold coins slabbed in the '80s and '90s: I think the graders sometimes confused weak strike for wear or severely downgraded for strike and occasionally just plain not sure how to grade these coins that were rarely seen before the internet age.
Thats my take on why an '80s VF might be cracked out and receive an XF and maybe even AU today.
That discussion aside, the OP coin looks 40ish.
I understand each coin must be judged individually but I'm looking at the date too and perhaps shouldn't be. If it was a 1907 Half Eagle then VF30 wouldn't sound too low. Does that make any sense? To me it does and I can't speak for others.
I like it as an XF-40. Heck, I just like it. CAC or no CAC.
'dude
The coin's obverse looks 40ish in the large photos.
However, the full slab shot shows enough luster to support a 45 grade to me.
Based on the differences in the images, I suspect an in-hand view would look a lot better than the large photos appear.
Definitely a nice looking coin...so were the others that DW was selling yesterday...I'm guessing that 5 of the 6 being in NGC holders meant they didn't cross for some reason or another...all were CAC though...
From my perspective, CAC has two standards. Typically, but not always, NGC is a half point to a full point higher when they grade across the board with regard to PCGS standards. NGC is also more forgiving when it comes to surface quality.
Here's the question you need to ask yourself... If a dealer that knows the coin is worth more in a PCGS holder within the same grade, then why not crack and submit and get more money for it? Usually the spread is the key for price. If the coin goes VF35 in a PCGS holder or XF40-45 in an NGC holder??? Or doesn't cross from NGC to PCGS... Well, you get the idea.
And, I don't think it is kosher to post a coin that is currently for sale that is either PCGS or NGC, CAC or not on the board for people to judge. You can't grade from photos anyway.
But what do I know....
Please note that I have already purchased this coin.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
i have bought three charlotte half eagle coins from dwn that were in the same grade range, ngc, cac. i cracked them all out submitted them to pcgs. they all came back the same grade and cac'd again...and i made money on each.
this coin probably won't cross. but, if there's any luster left it will grade 45 again, i think. i would have to see it in hand to say for sure, but i am basing my opinion on past experience and a photo.
the grading companies are valuing the coin at xf45. my guess they are bumping it for luster and/or eye appeal.
Update 10/29/16:
I examined the coin in hand. On the positive side, I think that these surfaces and dirt are totally original - making it a D.O.G. (Dirty Old Gold) in my opinion. The coin is weakly struck on the obverse left - that shows up inn the lack of detail in the stars on the obverse left. There is also a small rim bruise around 9:00 on the obverse, and some business of some hits on the obverse that can be seen in the photos.
Overall, I would grade it at 45, and I thyink I am a pretty conservative grader. What appears to be wear on the reverse left-hand side wings I think is actually weakness in the strike on that side of the coin.
I think I will use one of my "freebie" submits to tory to cross it at 40, but I think 45 is more like it. I feel totally confident that it would cross at 35, even with the small rim bruise noted.
Interesting coin to me with the arguments on grading. Lets keep the discussion going!
I will also order a Trueview, as this is a hard coin to photo in the slab given the pale-ish color often found on 1839 gold coins and the dirt and crud on the coin.
Many good comments here, and I hoped that this thread provoked some real discussion on grading and was educational to all.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
People are judging this coin here from a photo vs sight seen. My advice: instead of a seeking advice from a message board of Monday morning grading experts take it up with JA / NGC.
Or that it wasn't worth the time and money to regrade what was fairly accessible material without big spreads in grades or services.
Latin American Collection
Why does really need to be in a different holder?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Good question!
I am building an 1839 circulated mint set called "The 1839 Coins in Commerce" set. This will be all of the Redbook coins, except for the 1839 bust half with the seated reverse (I call that a mule), and the 1839 Gobrecht dollar, that I call a proof only issue. There is a fair amount of debate on that one, and if I could afford it, I would buy one! I'm thinking I could then put it in the PCGS Set Registry.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
Your coins in commerce set is pretty cool!
Latin American Collection