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An example of a good TPG grading innovation

BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hardly innovative but this Spanish TPG nots the grade of the obverse and reverse across a series of attributes.

image

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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a lot of work. So what is the final overall "market" grade? It's nowhere to be found. What's it worth vs. a price guide or auction results. How do you look up coins in the "same grade" if they have variables like this? How do you grade color? And for a very well struck coin like this what does 58/61 mean?



    On the plus side, the coin has attributes from 55 to 60, basically a net AU58. The seller and potential buyers can negotiate on where it falls from 55 to 60.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting - for over the last 10 years. I have been grading coins using a 50 point system. I grade 5 different categories - Originality, toning, surface quality, Eye appeal and strike. Most coins don't get higher than 40 and those that do are special coins.



    Easton Collection
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    lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 45,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is not dissimilar to NGC Ancients' two additional attributes that come after the grade (Strike x/5, Surface x/5).



    Interesting.

    Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.

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    panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Boosibri - how do you imagine they get multiple graders to agree on that many subgrades? Seems like it might make the cost substantially more.

    Easton - curious about your grading on toning. What would the 10 point scale look like? Sounds like a viable system.

    Thanks
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: roadrunner

    That's a lot of work. So what is the final overall "market" grade? It's nowhere to be found. What's it worth vs. a price guide or auction results. How do you look up coins in the "same grade" if they have variables like this? How do you grade color? And for a very well struck coin like this what does 58/61 mean?



    On the plus side, the coin has attributes from 55 to 60, basically a net AU58. The seller and potential buyers can negotiate on where it falls from 55 to 60.




    The obverse shows the final grade of AU58, these are the details for the assigned net grade and shown on the reverse of the slab
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure I agree with color as a attribute to "grade" but it would be nice to have more qualified information from the graders on how the assigned grade was derived.
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    MilkmanDanMilkmanDan Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    The obverse shows the final grade of AU58, these are the details for the assigned net grade and shown on the reverse of the slab




    Makes sense now. I thought they had holdered it backwards, making the grades even more confusing!
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    lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 45,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan

    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    The obverse shows the final grade of AU58, these are the details for the assigned net grade and shown on the reverse of the slab




    Makes sense now. I thought they had holdered it backwards, making the grades even more confusing!




    Me too.

    Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.

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    JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My head hurts



    mark
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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    bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Justacommeman

    My head hurts



    mark




    +1





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    fastfreddiefastfreddie Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: lordmarcovan

    Originally posted by: OriginalDan

    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    The obverse shows the final grade of AU58, these are the details for the assigned net grade and shown on the reverse of the slab




    Makes sense now. I thought they had holdered it backwards, making the grades even more confusing!




    Me too.





    Duh...wasn't is obvious that it was pic 2 of 2?



    image



    It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: fastfreddie

    Originally posted by: lordmarcovan

    Originally posted by: OriginalDan

    Originally posted by: Boosibri

    The obverse shows the final grade of AU58, these are the details for the assigned net grade and shown on the reverse of the slab




    Makes sense now. I thought they had holdered it backwards, making the grades even more confusing!




    Me too.





    Duh...wasn't is obvious that it was pic 2 of 2?



    image









    It wasn't obvious. But I noticed it. Would have helped if the coin's overall net grade were mentioned in the first post. With 5 levels of qualifiers, it still brings confusion into the pricing structure. "Hey, my AU58 has better luster plus it has mint state color....so I want 20% more."



    I wouldn't mind seeing the obverse as it could be an UNC coin imo. The reverse in UNC.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    desslokdesslok Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    A person who owns a clock knows exactly what time it is. A person who owns two is never quite sure.

    This coin has 10 different grades assigned to it. Does that really contribute to the overall conclusion of AU58? If a different coin were to reach AU58 by a different combination of sub-grades (more on some categories, less on others), should it be worth more, or less?
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    sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice coin in a crazy holder............and they misspelled color.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

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    It's all so subjective. Lol.

    Strike and surface a la NGC Ancients makes sense.
    Colonial and Continental Currency Collector.

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    fastfreddiefastfreddie Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...
    It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
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    fastfreddiefastfreddie Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: fastfreddie

    Nice coin, I was kidding that it should have been obvious the first pic was the reverse. It threw me as well




    It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually, it is interesting to see the value placed on components of grading. One of the reasons I am interested in Rick Snow's system.... I have never really liked tarnish as an attribute to a coin, however, that is very much a part of today's market. Seeing this broken out as it is allows people to better understand the overall grade - from the graders perspective. Cheers, RickO
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: sparky64

    Nice coin in a crazy holder............and they misspelled color.




    European spelling
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like an NGC holder with a different label.
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like many here. I feel I know enough about grading coins to stay out of trouble and judge the quality of the grade on a slab to my personal standards.

    So, laugh all you wish. I like that slab.



    If we live long enough, grading will become more and more like this with both sides graded as in the beginning. Anyone remember the ANA's photo certificates with aspects of the coin broken down? Anyone remember a much more detailed breakdown of a coin's grade attributes at INS that was the size of a sheet of paper and broke down everything including the location of marks, and defects?



    Furthermore, it is possible to get experienced professionals (and even Grading 101 students) very close to agreement on specific attributes of a coin. Grading problems principally occur when several different factors are introduced that must be weighed for importance and side of the coin. Then we throw the entire process into confusion when we introduce extraneous factors such as value, condition for the specific date, etc. Coin dealers are responsible for much of this mess.



    Think about it. I can sit your granny down at a table using four Morgan dollars and teach her about strike in less than five minutes.



    Coin #1 is fully struck

    Coin #2 is extremely flat

    Coin #3 is weak

    Coin #4 is nothing special - like a normal coin



    However, it would take years to train her (or any other non-professional) how each date normally comes and how the strike for that date influences the value. Try teaching "Well this is a 1894-O and this is an extremely strong and exceptional (looks like a normal strike to her) strike for this date. I am confident in this fact.
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You'd think a lot more detail and attributes would help you dial in on the coin's grade/value. Not necessarily so.



    The late 1980's ANACS color paper certs had obv/rev grades and 4-5 qualifiers on the reverse (strike, luster, eye appeal?, marks, or something like that ....no overall grade). My first "lesson" on those was buying a wonderful, pristine, old crusty shield nickel graded ANACS 65/65 with the highest qualifiers possible. A no brainer gem imo as it was without any marks. Not even a single high point or field graze. Submitted it to NGC in 1988 and got a MS64! Cracked it out and tried again with the same result. Couldn't believe it. The luster was so pristine you could literally count the granules. I guess the TPG didn't like it because it had some die cracks. In any case, all those superlatives led to a MS64 coin. ANACS (and me) missed something that the TPG didn't like.



    Thanks for posting the obverse of that coin. I can see the "rub." Though I wonder in the US system would that coin still be netted as a 61/62. How much of that is "stacking" friction as often seen on our capped or draped bust halves?
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't understand Spanish, but under services they list a price sheet and turn around. However they also seem to be selling coins... FPG maybe?
    -----Burton
    ANA 50+ year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
    Author: 3rd Edition of the SampleSlabs book, https://sampleslabs.info/
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When PCGS and NGC were "new" to the scene, they continuously under graded ALL types of nickel coins, especially Liberty and Shield nickels and three cent pieces! It would not surprise me in the least to think they would downgrade a coin for die breaks but I cannot confirm/or ever heard that ever happened.

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