Are "stickers" actually driving collectors out of coins?
291fifth
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I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
All glory is fleeting.
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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To whatever extent it's true, wouldn't it also be true of slabs, for the same reasons?
A slab protects a coin, so there's that
I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
I know how you feel. I have a few hundred slabbed coins that I've collected since PCGS and NGC started slabbing coins. When CAC came along my coin collection became second class in the eyes of the hobby because they didn't all have CAC stickers. Since then I've bought very few coins. There is no way in hell that I'm going to pay someone to pass judgement on every expensive coin in my collection.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
Maybe some dealers who choose not to deal in high end material, or tailor to their client interests in CAC stickered coins, and maybe some collectors who have material that will not sticker and is now worth less $$ than before, and maybe some who are just puritans in their views, but if you look at actual/realized prices they show that in reality it is quite the opposite!
In fact, collectors are increasingly preferring stickers... there are some here (less than 200 I would bet), that don't like stickers, and they are the ones that post most about them not liking stickers, so it feels like people don't like them...but the sticker dislikers here represent like nil point nil of the collecting universe.
stickered coins very small pct of slabbed coins on ebay.
To whatever extent it's true, wouldn't it also be true of slabs, for the same reasons?
Johnny Public can submit their treasures to the TPG's.. not so with CAC...bummer. Turn off...Adds no value to me. I can't participate....Does nothing for my coin....nada, zip, zero and zilch.
bob
Lafayette Grading Set
No. Social, economic and cultural change are. MHO.
If you ask me what frustrates me the mostabout collecting it's gradeflation- so anything that limits gradeflation is good in my book.
+100000, gradeflation could kill the hobby faster than any other things can
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I think CAC stickers and the entire model used tends to promote gradeflation.
There is a whole lot of junk locked forever in those Old Green Holders and/or Fattys, so gradeflation cannot be a blanket statement. Try cracking any MS66 DMPL Morgan out of one of those. (Even Rattlers). You will turn a 4 figure or higher coin into 200 bucks, REAL QUICK.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
In answer to the question, they are driving collectors out of garbage coins, and the ones left holding the bag are cranky about it. Are there coins that have not been regraded or sent to CAC that should have? Yes, I buy them all the time. I am very happy that many feel this way about CAC. Thanks and keep it up.
If you ask me what frustrates me the mostabout collecting it's gradeflation- so anything that limits gradeflation is good in my book.
Indeed.
Auction offerings often appear overweighted with coins that did not sticker now looking for new homes.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Speaking for my self.
On the rare occasion I go deeper, I look for the union label.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
CAC arbitrage is just one of many ways of playing the game. It's a pretty egalitarian one in that both collectors and dealers can play.
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I'm in worse shape. Many years ago, when NGC allowed direct submission for ANA members, in went my raw walker collection. Now, not only do I need to submit them to our host and pray they cross, I then have to have them sent to CAC and pray that they sticker. Now any upgrades I buy must already be in PCGS holders, and preferably stickered.
To the OP's question, I guess a lot of ALL of this drove me to large cents, where many coins were raw, and traded on individual merits, or the lack of significant issues. But now even the big EAC dealers are all moving to slabs and CAC. Everyone buying and selling serious coins needs to play ball these days.
If you ask me what frustrates me the mostabout collecting it's gradeflation- so anything that limits gradeflation is good in my book.
+1000
If you ask me what frustrates me the mostabout collecting it's gradeflation- so anything that limits gradeflation is good in my book.
+1000
I think, maybe, when I'm done playing my current game, that I might sell all the high-grade, high-stress, high-stomach acid stuff and become a true collector of inexpensive, but interesting coins that I can touch and pound into a coin album. Who knows? It might be very relaxing.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I think it makes collectors less likely to educate themselves on grading and they just depend on everyone else's opinions. For crying out loud, the grade on a slab is the opinion of multiple people, how many does one need?
The market takes every one of those opinions into play. Unfortunately, our opinions as the longer term collector/owners is irrelevant and not considered.
How many opinions does one need? I'd say 5-10 experts looking at one coin and coming to a consensus over several minutes. A single grading event in 2016 that finally gives an upgrade destroys the previous half dozen grading events (15 graders) who all judged the coin one grade less. A single grading event conducted in 5-15 seconds per grader is rarely going to be the most accurate and final opinion for a 4 figure classic coin. I stand by my previous thoughts where you really need a minimum of 2 grading events, and often 3-5 to determine a coins true market grade. But, realize that any subsequent grading event can destroy any previous efforts that were accurate. When a coin comes back the same grade 2/2, or 2/3, or 3/5 I'd say you've gotten reasonable agreement. 1/2, 1/3, 2/4, 2/5, etc. doesn't cut it.
I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
Peel the stickers off if you don't like them.
Topic Title: Are "stickers" actually driving collectors out of coins?
No. Social, economic and cultural change are. MHO.
In addition to modern coinage. With high mintages and high preservation rates, your average modern collector will never regain their costs. As more and more go to sell off their sets and lose money, they will never come back.
The market will also be hit as coins are used less and less in circulation. I cannot see future generations of children, who pay for everything over PayPal, Apple Pay, etc and have never used coins, having much interest in coins.
WS
WS
This is laughable. No it won't! Some of the greatest collections in the world were formed by educated collectors. Inside of those same collections, CAC coins do much better. I can spot a 67 CC Morgan all day long, but when I got the CAC approval on one, it sold for $1500 more than without. When you get into the upper grades of coins, that green magic will make or save you a lot of money baby!
Topic Title: Are "stickers" actually driving collectors out of coins?
No. Social, economic and cultural change are. MHO.
In addition to modern coinage. With high mintages and high preservation rates, your average modern collector will never regain their costs. As more and more go to sell off their sets and lose money, they will never come back.
The market will also be hit as coins are used less and less in circulation. I cannot see future generations of children, who pay for everything over PayPal, Apple Pay, etc and have never used coins, having much interest in coins.
I many of us collecting now ever used gold coins as currency. When they disappeared from our regular coinage interest in collecting coins became more intense. My guess is if and when coins disappear, the coin hobby will
Strengthen
There are still numerous areas of coins such as raw coins, modern coins, colonial issues, foreign issues, California Fractional gold, tokens, so called dollars, etc, etc that CAC does not get involved in.
Furthermore, coins under $100 are marginally not expensive enough to warrant Stickering.
But I feel that I have bought MORE slabbed not less slabbed coins because of increased comfort in the grades on the slab.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I find them totally useless. Anyone should be able to tell if the slabbed grade is on the money or not.
Oh my
Any collection held for more than a few years should probably be newly graded prior to sale if you intend for it to be judged by contemporary standards. There is a certain allure to stuff in old holders though, and coins that regrade at the same level may realize less than the same coin in an older-era holder.
I think, maybe, when I'm done playing my current game, that I might sell all the high-grade, high-stress, high-stomach acid stuff and become a true collector of inexpensive, but interesting coins that I can touch and pound into a coin album. Who knows? It might be very relaxing.
I totally agree.
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it is all about confidence and market development. PCGS was all about confidence and market development. the next logical step if someone wants to undertake it is to charge dealers/collectors a fee for assessing what CAC does. if a dealer with a high degree of "reputation" within the Hobby were to concoct such a scheme it would only be a matter of time before dealer networks and a buying collector base lined up like sheep. that would be a third generation use of an original idea, maybe even a fourth generation use since ACG pre-dated what David Hall did at PCGS.
I am surprised by the success of all this.
I am a collector of coins... yes, I have slabs etc.. Since I do not sell coins, the slabs are mainly for protection, and any accompanying stickers are decoration.
I shall continue to collect, until I cannot. I have no interest in selling. Cheers, RickO
What really chaffs my bum are the dealer stickers on slabs. Even GC does it - kind of annoying.
I've reviewed probably a couple thousand coins from their auctions since March and haven't seen anything but a CAC sticker on their coins. Dealers have been putting stickers and other puffery on their 2x2's since the 1970's...if not earlier. It's part of the scenery.