To summon all of the above I like to suggest that a federal Norm should be established about grading,just like bolts and screws have established sizes. all the TPG's and Sticker outfits would have to adhere to the same basic rules. No more guessing, no more old grades and gradeflation.
I asked the owner of a sticker company how he could explain his approval or rejection of a MS 67 and MS 68 coin graded by the same TPG on an otherwise same coin. IMO there is an instant bias the moment you see the grade the original TPG established. Now, if there would be a way to hide that original grade????? wouldn't that be interesting? He never even bothered to answer my question. If I personally had coins in these lofty grades, I would challenge any person to explain and proof the differences and the "why's".
the other thing that gets me is this: How can a person do better than guessing by evaluating a graded coin through the slab and agree on a respective previously established grade.... or not. Stars, points or whatever, boils down to another persons personal opinion... and usually at an inflated and unjustifiable expense. Does that perhaps suggest that the owner of such a coin is not able to grade his own coins and is just searching some kind of assurances?
If you are a serious collector, Buy the coin you like at the price you can afford. Do not buy, or be blinded by the packaging. However attractive and exclusive it may appear. If you are a dealer or doing coins for profit in any way, buy all the opinions you want to afford to achieve a better sale. But please remember this as a dealer: the smart collector buys the coin.
CAC probably has helped me with my collection. First of all no one buys a coin that they think is at the low end of the grade or overgraded (and if you do, you should have no problem that the coin doesn't sticker since you realize it is low end for the grade). Therefore, we all think that every coin we have should be stickered. That is not possible---there will always be A, B and C coins. The TPG can grade a coin 65 and it be either A, B and C and still be correct that it is a 65. CAC does help determine within that grade which ones are A and B. And yes, there will always be disagreement whether a coin should sticker just like there is disagreement whether a coin is 65 or 64 by a TPG or whether a raw coin is graded correctly.
I bought a gold coin years ago from one of the most respected dealers who said the coin was high end. The TPG also confirmed its condition. When I sent it into CAC, I found out that it had been messed with using putty. For those who say, I don't need CAC and should educate myself, I would say how could I possibly know more than this respected expert dealer with an impeccable reputation who spends every day viewing coins and third party graders who all viewed the coin and missed the putty (I understand some may think the putty could have been intentionally overlooked)? I am glad CAC is around as an additional safeguard.
I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
I know how you feel. I have a few hundred slabbed coins that I've collected since PCGS and NGC started slabbing coins. When CAC came along my coin collection became second class in the eyes of the hobby because they didn't all have CAC stickers. Since then I've bought very few coins. There is no way in hell that I'm going to pay someone to pass judgement on every expensive coin in my collection.
The cost of getting the bean would not bother me. Shipping them back and forth does. I don't care if they are insured or not. The personal eye appeal we find in some coins simply often cannot be replaced.
So I would look at your coins and say to myself, "Here is a guy confident in his coins, unwilling to take the risk associated with shipping them back and forth for a sticker."
Originally posted by: keets CAC is all about the supposed confidence in the opinion of John Albanese and marketing. he first had to "sell" the idea to his loyal dealer network, then they had to sell the idea to their loyal collector network. once that was complete it was an easy one step process of getting the coins into the market and selling them for a higher price. to my way of thinking there was no revolutionary idea or original thought involved, it was only an extension of what PCGS first brought to the Hobby with third party grading, done in exactly the same fashion. the trick or hoax purported by JA is that he doesn't really have to grade any coins, he only has to assess the quality of a coin already graded and encapsulated by someone else.
it is all about confidence and market development. PCGS was all about confidence and market development. the next logical step if someone wants to undertake it is to charge dealers/collectors a fee for assessing what CAC does. if a dealer with a high degree of "reputation" within the Hobby were to concoct such a scheme it would only be a matter of time before dealer networks and a buying collector base lined up like sheep. that would be a third generation use of an original idea, maybe even a fourth generation use since ACG pre-dated what David Hall did at PCGS.
I am surprised by the success of all this.
Keep in mind that the "Eagle Eye" stickers were in use long before the CAC stickers.
In answer to the question, they are driving collectors out of garbage coins, and the ones left holding the bag are cranky about it. Are there coins that have not been regraded or sent to CAC that should have? Yes, I buy them all the time. I am very happy that many feel this way about CAC. Thanks and keep it up.
I think it is safe to say that CAC stickers have entered the realm of politics, religion, and brussels sprouts.......no conversation anywhere, between anyone, has ever changed a person's mind.
It depends. It depends on whether or not you are willing to pay a premium for a coin that John Albanese and CAC indicated that they are willing to buy, hence stickering it. To reiterate what some have written here, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy the coin and that CAC and JA like the particular coin's look. It does not necessarily mean that the coin is solid / superior for the grade.
John Albanese is in the business of buying and selling coins. The sticker makes his life easier re what he will and will not buy. Many in the industry use it as a marketing tool.
To the extent people selling coins to collectors think that any stickered coin demands a premium, yes, I think this is driving collectors out of the hobby.
On the other hand, one can also argue that CAC provides a safety net of sorts to someone who cannot grade a particular coin he / she wishes to buy. Continuing, CAC is an extended version of the insurance policy provided by a TPG certification of a particular coin. Then the question becomes, what is the value of the extended version of said insurance policy on the particular coin? I would answer that you need to be able to grade said coin to be able to answer that question.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
It depends. It depends on whether or not you are willing to pay a premium for a coin that John Albanese and CAC indicated that they are willing to buy, hence stickering it. To reiterate what some have written here, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy the coin and that CAC and JA like the particular coin's look. It does not necessarily mean that the coin is solid / superior for the grade.
Yes this is stated on the CAC landing page twice and then this is taken from the FAQ page:
5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What really chaffs my bum are the dealer stickers on slabs. Even GC does it - kind of annoying.
I've reviewed probably a couple thousand coins from their auctions since March and haven't seen anything but a CAC sticker on their coins. Dealers have been putting stickers and other puffery on their 2x2's since the 1970's...if not earlier. It's part of the scenery.
I think he is referring to this king of GC sticker.
The issue really seems to be a question of when CAC makes sense. And collectors seem to have lost sight of this. I am not going to loose sleep over this or whether an 1881-s Morgan that grades 66 stickers or not.
True, but I did lose a little sleep (and a lot of money) when the most expensive coin that I ever purchased turned in its holder. It was in the pre-CAC era. Perhaps CAC would have saved me, maybe not. Either way, my passion for collecting took a big hit and never fully recovered.
More recently, other interests have taken the place of collecting. I have also learned that in the same way that I can enjoy and appreciate a great work of art (see below*) without owning it, I can enjoy and appreciate a great coin without owning it.
*I visit Renoir's Luncheon of the Boating Party at the Phillips Collection whenever I am in D.C.
5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
Not to split hairs, but the look that CAC considers to be high end or solid for the grade, although an expert opinion, is an opinion nevertheless. There is rarely universal agreement re what is an attractive or solid coin for the grade. I think there is more consistent agreement for what is an ugly coin for the grade, rather than an attractive one.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I like stickers...I want all my coins to have them...I wish everything came with them...employees...new houses...RYK's fancy paintings...you can debate anything endlessly...I hate that...that's why I'm not on a Church committee...I am a simple man...CAC = A&B grade coins...the rest are C's....they are the experts...I'm not...I'll go with their opinion all day long...
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
In the art world, it is the name that sells, much more so than the art itself. Think "eight New York critics".
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
I agree. We do own some art, but I am not looking to purchase any more.
My U.S. coin collection was close to complete when the CAC thing came along. Now it's sort of depressing that I am facing the possibility of getting my collection re-graded when it comes time to sell.
Don't worry Bill, there's plenty of collectors like me that completely ignore the bean and scrape it off after purchase.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Comments
all the TPG's and Sticker outfits would have to adhere to the same basic rules. No more guessing, no more old grades and gradeflation.
I asked the owner of a sticker company how he could explain his approval or rejection of a MS 67 and MS 68 coin graded by the same TPG on an otherwise same coin.
IMO there is an instant bias the moment you see the grade the original TPG established. Now, if there would be a way to hide that original grade????? wouldn't that be interesting?
He never even bothered to answer my question.
If I personally had coins in these lofty grades, I would challenge any person to explain and proof the differences and the "why's".
the other thing that gets me is this: How can a person do better than guessing by evaluating a graded coin through the slab and agree on a respective previously established grade.... or not.
Stars, points or whatever, boils down to another persons personal opinion... and usually at an inflated and unjustifiable expense.
Does that perhaps suggest that the owner of such a coin is not able to grade his own coins and is just searching some kind of assurances?
If you are a serious collector, Buy the coin you like at the price you can afford. Do not buy, or be blinded by the packaging. However attractive and exclusive it may appear.
If you are a dealer or doing coins for profit in any way, buy all the opinions you want to afford to achieve a better sale.
But please remember this as a dealer: the smart collector buys the coin.
I bought a gold coin years ago from one of the most respected dealers who said the coin was high end. The TPG also confirmed its condition. When I sent it into CAC, I found out that it had been messed with using putty. For those who say, I don't need CAC and should educate myself, I would say how could I possibly know more than this respected expert dealer with an impeccable reputation who spends every day viewing coins and third party graders who all viewed the coin and missed the putty (I understand some may think the putty could have been intentionally overlooked)? I am glad CAC is around as an additional safeguard.
I've wondered about this for some time. To me, though I am no longer a buyer at all, stickers and the reasons why they exist are a real turn-off for collecting. What are your feelings?
I know how you feel. I have a few hundred slabbed coins that I've collected since PCGS and NGC started slabbing coins. When CAC came along my coin collection became second class in the eyes of the hobby because they didn't all have CAC stickers. Since then I've bought very few coins. There is no way in hell that I'm going to pay someone to pass judgement on every expensive coin in my collection.
The cost of getting the bean would not bother me. Shipping them back and forth does. I don't care if they are insured or not. The personal eye appeal we find in some coins simply often cannot be replaced.
So I would look at your coins and say to myself, "Here is a guy confident in his coins, unwilling to take the risk associated with shipping them back and forth for a sticker."
CAC is all about the supposed confidence in the opinion of John Albanese and marketing. he first had to "sell" the idea to his loyal dealer network, then they had to sell the idea to their loyal collector network. once that was complete it was an easy one step process of getting the coins into the market and selling them for a higher price. to my way of thinking there was no revolutionary idea or original thought involved, it was only an extension of what PCGS first brought to the Hobby with third party grading, done in exactly the same fashion. the trick or hoax purported by JA is that he doesn't really have to grade any coins, he only has to assess the quality of a coin already graded and encapsulated by someone else.
it is all about confidence and market development. PCGS was all about confidence and market development. the next logical step if someone wants to undertake it is to charge dealers/collectors a fee for assessing what CAC does. if a dealer with a high degree of "reputation" within the Hobby were to concoct such a scheme it would only be a matter of time before dealer networks and a buying collector base lined up like sheep. that would be a third generation use of an original idea, maybe even a fourth generation use since ACG pre-dated what David Hall did at PCGS.
I am surprised by the success of all this.
Keep in mind that the "Eagle Eye" stickers were in use long before the CAC stickers.
will someone please start a CAC forum? thanks
In answer to the question, they are driving collectors out of garbage coins, and the ones left holding the bag are cranky about it. Are there coins that have not been regraded or sent to CAC that should have? Yes, I buy them all the time. I am very happy that many feel this way about CAC. Thanks and keep it up.
My YouTube Channel
John Albanese is in the business of buying and selling coins. The sticker makes his life easier re what he will and will not buy. Many in the industry use it as a marketing tool.
To the extent people selling coins to collectors think that any stickered coin demands a premium, yes, I think this is driving collectors out of the hobby.
On the other hand, one can also argue that CAC provides a safety net of sorts to someone who cannot grade a particular coin he / she wishes to buy. Continuing, CAC is an extended version of the insurance policy provided by a TPG certification of a particular coin. Then the question becomes, what is the value of the extended version of said insurance policy on the particular coin? I would answer that you need to be able to grade said coin to be able to answer that question.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
My sig line parable more or less says what my experience was with stickers.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
It depends. It depends on whether or not you are willing to pay a premium for a coin that John Albanese and CAC indicated that they are willing to buy, hence stickering it. To reiterate what some have written here, a sticker means that CAC is willing to buy the coin and that CAC and JA like the particular coin's look. It does not necessarily mean that the coin is solid / superior for the grade.
Yes this is stated on the CAC landing page twice and then this is taken from the FAQ page:
5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
will someone please start a CAC forum? thanks
AnkurJ has already done so. It has less activity than the NGC forums.
This is entertaining.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
What really chaffs my bum are the dealer stickers on slabs. Even GC does it - kind of annoying.
I've reviewed probably a couple thousand coins from their auctions since March and haven't seen anything but a CAC sticker on their coins. Dealers have been putting stickers and other puffery on their 2x2's since the 1970's...if not earlier. It's part of the scenery.
I think he is referring to this king of GC sticker.
The issue really seems to be a question of when CAC makes sense. And collectors seem to have lost sight of this. I am not going to loose sleep over this or whether an 1881-s Morgan that grades 66 stickers or not.
True, but I did lose a little sleep (and a lot of money) when the most expensive coin that I ever purchased turned in its holder. It was in the pre-CAC era. Perhaps CAC would have saved me, maybe not. Either way, my passion for collecting took a big hit and never fully recovered.
More recently, other interests have taken the place of collecting. I have also learned that in the same way that I can enjoy and appreciate a great work of art (see below*) without owning it, I can enjoy and appreciate a great coin without owning it.
*I visit Renoir's Luncheon of the Boating Party at the Phillips Collection whenever I am in D.C.
*I visit Renoir's Luncheon of the Boating Party at the Phillips Collection whenever I am in D.C.
Why? I get you don't own it, must be a shrine.
who directed you to buy that?
5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
Not to split hairs, but the look that CAC considers to be high end or solid for the grade, although an expert opinion, is an opinion nevertheless. There is rarely universal agreement re what is an attractive or solid coin for the grade. I think there is more consistent agreement for what is an ugly coin for the grade, rather than an attractive one.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
- Jon
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
to tell us how nice our coins are.
Or, sometimes, how nice they aren't
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
RYK-
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
In the art world, it is the name that sells, much more so than the art itself. Think "eight New York critics".
*I visit Renoir's Luncheon of the Boating Party at the Phillips Collection whenever I am in D.C.
Why? I get you don't own it, must be a shrine.
It's my favorite painting. I like to visit it and view it when I can.
RYK-
There is some terrific art that can be owned that is not expensive for what it is. One of the challenges with art is simply so many names within the art collecting community seem unknown to the outsiders.
I agree. We do own some art, but I am not looking to purchase any more.
Bad influence on my collecting urges.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
My U.S. coin collection was close to complete when the CAC thing came along. Now it's sort of depressing that I am facing the possibility of getting my collection re-graded when it comes time to sell.
Don't worry Bill, there's plenty of collectors like me that completely ignore the bean and scrape it off after purchase.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.