Reeded edge bust half dollars

lkeigwin · June 6, 2016 2:56PM

With the introduction of steam presses and the reducing lathe the Mint was able to place all features on the working hubs (except the date) and ramp up production more quickly. Except for the date, all dies were identical. The era of quirky, hand-punched and engraved half dollar varieties had come to an end. Technology marched on.

Chief Engraver Christian Gobrecht reworked the design for improved metal flow and the new presses. Minting did not begin until very late in 1836 and a small run of perhaps 1200 coins were pressed from a single die pair. Their release into circulation was unexpected as the coin's revised design and size had not been approved by Congress. The 1836 reeded edge was considered a pattern by many. However, Congress enacted the new law in early 1837. And as these pieces met the requirements they were released into circulation.

These coins represented the end of a quaint, charming era and the start of a significant, new technology. Show us some reeded edge examples, the last of the venerated bust halves!

Lance.

coinlieutenant · June 6, 2016 3:17PM

Oh Lance....you are as bad as Tom. You know how I covet your 1836.

If I could get that 1836 and Tom's 39-O, the set would be completable with five perfect coins. My 37 is perfect. My 39-O almost so. 39 needs help, but an easier date. 1838 is just about finding the right coin.

TopographicOceans · June 6, 2016 3:19PM

oih82w8 · June 6, 2016 10:09PM

I only need one for my Type Set, I believe that a forum member identified her as GR-12;

BillJones · June 6, 2016 10:37PM

Yorkshireman · June 6, 2016 11:08PM

Lance,

Super nice coin! You have a great eye.

oih82w8 · June 7, 2016 12:19AM

Lance, Truly a beauty, your 1836!

Bill...that one is gorgeous as well!

Finally getting to see all of these lovely ladies at the house. My work computer does not like a bunch of the imaging sites used by our members.

LindeDad · June 7, 2016 12:43AM

mozin · June 7, 2016 4:52AM

Forget the price sheets on this one. I splurged. Sure wish I could find nice 1838 and 1839.
GR-1, which account for about 95% of the 1839-O examples encountered. My example has all the cracks mentioned in A REGISTRY OF DIE VARIETIES OF REEDED EDGE HALF DOLLARS by Dick Graham, except for the very last DS where the lumps along the cracks cause the reverse die to shatter.

SeatedHalf1839 · June 7, 2016 6:25AM

Very nice 58...wow. Now who can attribute these?

kaz · June 7, 2016 6:37AM

Beautiful coins so far, Lance's '36 is a stunner though.

lkeigwin · June 7, 2016 6:53AM

Glad you were able to acquire that '39-O, Mozin. Tough coin.

Many lovely examples here. Who attributes theirs?

Here's a '37 GR-17 I picked up from a board member.

Lance.

kaz · June 7, 2016 6:57AM

TomB · June 7, 2016 7:18AM

Reeded Edge half dollars? Never heard of'em!

I'll post something later and, yes, I do attribute mine as well.

AnkurJ · June 7, 2016 9:54AM

LanLord · June 7, 2016 10:16AM

I gotta tell ya, my favourite design is the lettered edge half (I love the fact that there are so many different designs in the series), but when I look at reeded edge halves I can find nothing more beautuful.

It is a great coin.

I guess what I'm saying is I love all the bust halves, regardless of design.

cmerlo1 · June 7, 2016 10:21AM

Some awesome coins here!

Meltdown · June 7, 2016 4:18PM

I drooled all over the keyboard, very nice!

mercurydimeguy · June 7, 2016 4:51PM

Freshly graded...Col. Green-Newman (crossed from NGC).

thisnamztaken · June 7, 2016 5:29PM

Great examples, everyone.
Lance - those two toners are showstoppers!

I used to think RE Capped Bust Halves were kind of odd looking but over the last couple years they have really grown on me. Now I think they are quite "special" looking. Go figure.

Rittenhouse · June 7, 2016 11:27PM

While the intention was to strike the new RE half on the steam press, the Mint ran into a small problem. The press for half dollars and dollars was not yet ready, so the Mint tried using the cent press in Nov 1836. It did not go well with Patterson reporting that the press "halted and jammed" under the pressure. It is not known if the Mint struck the whole 1200 on the stream press or had to finish the 1836 striking on a screw press. However, subsequent deliveries of half dollars until June 1837 were struck on the screw press.

The new steam press finally arrived and on June 30, 1837 Patterson reported to Woodbury that the new press was now "coining half dollars with perfect success."

In an interesting historical side note, in a November 8, 1836 letter to Sec Treas. Woodbury, Mint Director Patterson enclosed examples of the new half dollar noting that they had been struck on the steam press. Patterson further mentioned that they were struck in a closed collar whereas previous half dollars were struck in what they termed an "open collar." Patterson went on to note that the closed collar gave the pieces a thicker edge and a "mathematical quality to their diameter."

The closed vs. open collar mentioned in this letter lead to decades of misunderstanding largely due to Breen and others misquoting it and attempting to apply it to the reduced size bust coinage introduced in 1828 - 1831, concluding that this was when the closed collar was first introduced. In fact, studies by Karoleff, Dannreuther, Borchardt, and Sholley have shown that that all reeded edge coinage from the Mint's inception was struck in a closed collar.

Circa 2005, Sholley showed that the "open collar" actually meant no collar at all.

ElmerFusterpuck · June 7, 2016 11:46PM

asheland · June 8, 2016 12:12AM

Great thread and coins here!

lkeigwin · June 8, 2016 12:20AM

Fascinating. Thanks for expanding on this, Rittenhouse.

Were the screw press halves which were struck before the new steam press arrived mid-1837 minted as RE 1837's or LE 1836's?

Re Breen's mistaken conclusion that closed (or is it "close"?) collars were first used with the reduced-size half dime, dime and quarter, how did he believe the reeded edges were imparted on the earlier coins?

Lance.

TwoSides2aCoin · June 8, 2016 1:22AM

I like the edge, too.

Rittenhouse · June 8, 2016 1:52AM

Originally posted by: lkeigwin
Fascinating. Thanks for expanding on this, Rittenhouse.

Were the screw press halves which were struck before the new steam press arrived mid-1837 minted as RE 1837's or LE 1836's?

Re Breen's mistaken conclusion that closed (or is it "close"?) collars were first used with the reduced-size half dime, dime and quarter, how did he believe the reeded edges were imparted on the earlier coins?
Lance.

Given Patterson's well known dislike of using prior year dies, I'd say it's pretty certain they were 1837 RE pieces.

It is "closed." That's the word the Mint used.

Breen thought re coins had the reeding applied to the planchet by a rimming machine (often called Castaing machine, although I dislike the term re US coinage since it refers to a specific type of rimming machine made by Mssr. Castaing for the French mint).

I believe Brad Karoleff was the first to develop solid evidence that a collar was used from his study of off-center bust quarters in which he found that every off-center was missing reeding, which it should not be if the planchets were reeeded. He also noted that he had never seen a RE bustie with gaps or overlaps as is seen on the LE halfs. He has published that study in a recent JR Journal.

Around the same time, JD was noting the same thing on gold, which he brought to my attention circa 2000. He and I then measured some early gold and found it round to .005, which never happens on the LE halfs - they are all ovate.

This past year, Mark Borchardt did a study on the 1795 RE cent (S-79). He got in touch with JD and I, and we told him what to look for to determine if they were collar struck (ie, no overlaps or gaps and round to .010 or so). Lo and behold, that's exactly what he found.

The only question that remains is that of the 1792 disme and half disme. Both JD and JK note they had never seen one with overlap or gap. Sadly, all are in plastic now, so we can't measure.

Analyst · June 12, 2016 11:34AM

Rittenhouse: "It is not known if the Mint struck the whole 1200 on the stream press or had to finish the 1836 striking on a screw press."

Is it known that the mintage of 1836 Reeded Edge (Gobrecht) halves really was just 1200? I have read in the past that some researchers figured that more than 1200 were struck.

In any event, regarding all the clearly business strike 1836 Reeded Edge (Gobrecht) half dollars that I have examined, a large number, the design elements and fabric tend to be extremely consistent in form and appearance. For Reich (Lettered Edge) halves, there are often very noticeable differences in the definitions of the design elements and the fabric, even among coins of similar grades that were struck from the same pair of dies. All the 1836 RE (Gobrecht) halves that I recollect at the moment seem to have been manufactured in a different manner, unlike that of LE halves.

Also, as I have pointed out many times in published articles, it makes sense to refer to Reeded Edge halves (1836-39) as Gobrecht Half Dollars and Lettered Edge half dollars (1807-36) as Reich Half Dollars. Names that refer only to the edges are misleading, as the impression is given that the only difference or the main difference between the two types is the edge format. There are many differences. The two types are clearly the work of different artisans. Besides, many collectors wish to learn about the pertinent designers and engravers. It helps to employ the names of pertinent humans in the names of coins.

The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 15: Reich Half Dollars from the 1830s

insightful10@gmail.com

TomB · June 12, 2016 11:38AM

It is not at all known, to my knowledge, that the true mintage of 1836 RE half dollars was only 1,200 pieces. This is a number that Walter Breen "reckoned" back in the day and then referenced himself later on in order to support the figure. The true original mintage is much higher, in my opinion.

Elcontador · June 12, 2016 12:25PM

I think they started using the steam press with the later dated Classic Half Cents in 1828. I have an 1835 in MS 65 RB and it's neat to see a coin that old which is fully struck.

thisnamztaken · June 16, 2016 10:57AM

This lady's been around the block a few times.

Baley · June 16, 2016 11:04AM

I think I have about a half dozen reeded edge halves, here's my favorite one

kaz · June 16, 2016 11:14AM

The RE halves are for me "can't help smiling" coins

Nap · June 16, 2016 12:51PM

Originally posted by: Analyst

Is it known that the mintage of 1836 Reeded Edge (Gobrecht) halves really was just 1200? I have read in the past that some researchers figured that more than 1200 were struck.

insightful10@gmail.com

The 1200 figure is reportedly unsubstantiated and almost certainly inaccurate.

This is an old post from Denga from a 2010 thread:

The figure of 1,200 was first published by Walter Breen in the early 1950s before all of the
facts had been uncovered. He based this on the following:

November: 738,000 half dollars
December: 1,034,200 half dollars

Mint records do not show a breakdown for the reeded-edge pieces (versus lettered edge) but it is known that the reeded-edge coins were coined in early November and, probably, in
December.

It should be noted that the 1836 reeded-edge coin was struck on the standard of 1792 and is not a pattern. It is a regular-issue coin and differs from the 1837 half dollar in both weight and fineness; the pure silver content is the same, however.

It is well known that the Mint kept the Gobrecht dollars of December 1836 on hand, for at least two years, for the public to obtain at face value. It may well be that the 1836 half dollars were also retained at the Mint for the public to obtain. If this was the case, then the original mintage becomes even more difficult to determine.

My personal view is that about 5,000 pieces were coined. The figure of 1,200 is clearly too low.

Denga

I suspect the mintage was well over 10,000. The fact that the mintage is unknown gives the coin a little bit of a mystique, which is not a bad thing. It is one of my favorite issues.

Here's my (low grade) example:

mozin · June 17, 2016 6:20AM

I edited my previous reply to give important information for those wanting to attribute their 1839-O examples.

USMarine6 · June 17, 2016 7:28AM

Originally posted by: Baley
I think I have about a half dozen reeded edge halves, here's my favorite one

WOW what a terrific example.

Baley · June 17, 2016 7:37AM

Thanks! I should take new pictures one of these days, these were from years and years ago..

I believe the coin has toned just a little bit more in the time since

coinsarefun · June 17, 2016 2:00PM

I love these coins and surprised I only own one.

TomB · June 17, 2016 2:13PM

I keep posting to this thread and don't put any images up, so here we go-

mozin · June 23, 2016 8:25AM

Here is my 1837 GR-20 R-3 Reeded Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar. This coin is a fairly early die state.

thisnamztaken · June 23, 2016 5:32PM

Lots of very eye appealing RE Halves in this thread! Wow!

erwindoc · April 1, 2017 4:02AM

This is my first and it will be on its way in a few weeks...

logger7 · April 1, 2017 4:54AM

Thanks for the educational thread. I wonder how the Americans in the late 1830s thought about the change over in their money designs?

kaz · April 1, 2017 4:59AM

Great looking coin, erwindoc, and nice to see this "old friend" of a thread brought back up!

Boosibri · April 1, 2017 5:07AM

Some great coins in this thread

RichieURich · April 1, 2017 5:47AM

I like reeded edge half dollars and was happy to have owned this one:

jonruns · April 1, 2017 5:58AM

golden · April 1, 2017 6:44AM

Sure wish that I could find a nice,and I mean real nice 1837 in PCGS AU 58.

BillJones · April 1, 2017 6:56AM

It is interesting to note that Gobrecht did more with the reverse than change the denomination from "50 cents" in 1836-7 to "Half Dol." in 1938-9. He also beefed up the rims which improved the wearing quality of the design.

Here is my 1838, "Half Dol." type coin, which not quite as nice as my 1837. This coin is graded MS-62; the 1837 is graded MS-64.