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1795 $1 - Fair price? - UPDATE: COUNTERFEIT

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ugh

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    kazkaz Posts: 9,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Link'd


    after a quick look, nothing about it screams fake to me. Others may differ however.
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    pcgs69pcgs69 Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭✭
    looks ok to me
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    mariner67mariner67 Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭
    Looks ok and I like the circulated cameo appearance.
    Successful trades/buys/sells with gdavis70, adriana, wondercoin, Weiss, nibanny, IrishMike, commoncents05, pf70collector, kyleknap, barefootjuan, coindeuce, WhiteTornado, Nefprollc, ajw, JamesM, PCcoins, slinc, coindudeonebay,beernuts, and many more
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    gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The tooled is a turn off.
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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was 2275 a fair price for the buyer?
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    I think that they buyer may have paid to much for a tooled and cleaned coin. So my opinion is no the price was not fair to me but to the buyer who knows.
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    bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The tooled part of the description is a turn off. I considered it a damaged beyond repair coin. Buyer probably paid too much.
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    TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    I was watching that. It is a tough coin, but the price went far beyond my comfort level for a problem coin.

    Is it a fair price?
    I guess both i***t( 12) and s***o( 692) thought so.

    A problem free F12 can be bought for $4800
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    RampageRampage Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Was 2275 a fair price for the buyer? >>


    Depends on how it looks in hand. I would not pay that amount of money for a coin that has been tooled and cleaned, thought he cleaning does not look terrible. Are you the buyer or the seller?


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    Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Was 2275 a fair price for the buyer? >>


    Depends on how it looks in hand. I would not pay that amount of money for a coin that has been tooled and cleaned, thought he cleaning does not look terrible. Are you the buyer or the seller? >>



    Where is the tooling? THe date? Gotta hand it to the seller for listing problems that are not obvious in the pics or to the uneducuated.
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is a fair price if the buyer thinks so..... that is what matters. Cheers, RickO
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    gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And I need to get into restorationimage
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Price seems fair given the coin retains decent eye appeal and details. A $5k piece sans problems.
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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?
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    ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd call eBay to let them know. They will probably tell you to file a INAD (Item Not as Described) and you should be able to get a full refund for the money. Indicate you sent it to PCGS and they deemed it a counterfeit. Don't say to much to the seller, just the facts. Don't get mad or say anything inflammatory...the less the better.
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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 35,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?


    That is a scary counterfeit. From the photos I would have said that it was genuine, and that the price paid, which was around the Gray Sheet price for a VG, was fair. You would be surprised how ugly a VG graded coin of this type can be.


    The lesson to be learned here is that you really need look for certified coins when you are paying serious money, even for "details," "no grade" pieces.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins

    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?




    Why not start by sending the seller an email through eBay and telling him what happened, and ask for a refund? If he doesn't respond after a few days, then you can file a SNAD with eBay. I like giving sellers the benefit of the doubt, so there's no reason to just start by opening a case. If he's legit, you'll get a reply and things will be worked out. If not, eBay will side with you. You have 60 days from the end of the auction to open a case, so there's no reason not to give the seller a chance to do the right thing on his own.
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭
    The 9 in the date looks really bad.
    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
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    WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow! I guess the tooling as described was just part of the counterfeiting process. Gee whiz!
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a scary counterfeit.




    many of these dollars can be a bit challenging. in-hand is probably easier.



    numerous early dollars have made me squirm. (from images)



    the edge on this may give it away. they are usually too crisp/sharp/smooth.



    i'd like to see better images of this one, including the edge.

    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?


    sorry to hear that you were the buyer.
    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 35,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC
    That is a scary counterfeit.


    many of these dollars can be a bit challenging. in-hand is probably easier.

    numerous early dollars have made me squirm. (from images)

    the edge on this may give it away. they are usually too crisp/sharp/smooth.

    i'd like to see better images of this one, including the edge.
    .



    Yes it probably is easier to spot in person. The people who sell these counterfeits over the Internet often post pictures that hide the problems. It would not surprise me if this piece contains no silver. The Chinese have gotten pretty good at "aging" the steel they use for their "Morgan Dollars."

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Might be a contemporary counterfeit and if so, has value.
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins

    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?




    Did they call out COUNTERFEIT specifically or did they state, "Questionable Authenticity" or similar?



    Either way sorry to hear of your troubles.



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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 35,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: abcde12345
    Might be a contemporary counterfeit and if so, has value.


    Most contemporary counterfeits were not that good.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,510 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The seller has been inactive at eBay for a month. Good luck getting a response, if you do decide to reach out now before filing a claim.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.american-legacy-coins.com

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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It says "Counterfeit"
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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Could PCGS have gotten this one wrong due to the alterations/tooling?
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    winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    If you can't tell that is fake THEN !!!



    Just my thought, don't want to upset anyone.
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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 35,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are a lot of collectors who are unwilling to pay over $2 grand for a raw coin these days. As for PCGS, I think they would get this one right.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Holy smokes! I would have guessed genuine based on the pics. Jeez! You'll get your money back, but boy, what a lesson learned!
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    TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Bummer.image
    That's over the limit I would spend on an eBay raw coin by about $1,500



    As stated, contact the seller but keep your eye on the calendar so you don't lose your eBay coverage.
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    kazkaz Posts: 9,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Man, sorry to hear that it's a fake, not what I expected. Hope you get the refund.
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    tonedSilvertonedSilver Posts: 153 ✭✭✭
    Long time lurker... but the differences that jump at me right away were in the the tail area on the reverse (i.e. number of feathers, berries, leaves...). I might be mistaken but that's what stands out on the counterfeit piece right away...

    Thanks!
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imagine if that was in a fake slab. When would someone find out it was counterfeit? If ever?
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    ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    If the coin was in a counterfeit NGC slab, it would be easy to see that it's fake......Remember, NGC has public pictures of their NGC graded coins available at their website to compare to......PCGS needs to start doing the same if they want to remain relevant.
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    ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's all hope this ends with a simple refund. Amazing how many folks are thinking negative and getting the buyer all worked up.
    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: airplanenut
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?


    Why not start by sending the seller an email through eBay and telling him what happened, and ask for a refund? If he doesn't respond after a few days, then you can file a SNAD with eBay. I like giving sellers the benefit of the doubt, so there's no reason to just start by opening a case. If he's legit, you'll get a reply and things will be worked out. If not, eBay will side with you. You have 60 days from the end of the auction to open a case, so there's no reason not to give the seller a chance to do the right thing on his own.

    I agree. Give the seller a chance to fix the problem and use the ebay system to contact him. Be nice. There is a good chance the seller did not know the coin was a problem.
    Larry

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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?


    Lets us know how the return, turns out ..
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    thebeavthebeav Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BillJones
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?


    That is a scary counterfeit.


    I'll say !!!

    It may not end well if the seller has cleaned out his Paypal account.

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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: thebeav

    Originally posted by: BillJones

    Originally posted by: jclovescoins

    PCGS just graded COUNTERFEIT. How do I get my money back?




    That is a scary counterfeit.




    I'll say !!!



    It may not end well if the seller has cleaned out his Paypal account.







    That's on PayPal/eBay if it comes to opening a case. HOWEVER, why must people assume the worst from the start? People make mistakes--at least give them a chance to fix them and be nice about it. IF the seller doesn't fix the problem, then eBay/PayPal will. But for crying out loud, why the rush to the worst case scenario (which isn't even that bad)?
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .

    i'd still like to see new pics and/or trueview.



    also like the level-head approach to this issue.



    whether the seller is a scammer, ignorant, unknowing etc, getting all excited solves much of nada.

    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭


    Sorry for the situation you are in. Hope it resolves okay.



    Just in case anyone is interested in the coin considered

    a counterfeit, here is some information about what it is

    pretending to be.

    Unlike many of the phony pieces showing up this piece is

    much more difficult to spot as it appears accurate and would

    require in hand examination.



    The die mariage used for this 1795 example is a B-1, BB-21.

    The obverse die was used to strike 1795 BB-21, BB-22 & BB-23.



    The obv. problem areas appear to be as follows;



    * obv star points are too thin & some are short

    * the hair looks to have been embellished & outlined

    * the face appears to be looking too straight east, as

    opposed to facing somewhat north-east

    * the nose is too long

    * the "9" is out of round & the lower part juts to the left

    and is too open & leans a bit too much to the left

    * the "5" is too open



    The good points are the stars & letters are positioned

    correctly & point to the correct dentils.

    The date numerals are correctly spaced.

    The "Y" is higher than the "T".

    The spacing of the letters L, I. & B are correct.

    The remnant of a "1" shows to the left of the upright of the seven.



    The reverse die was used to strike BB-20, BB-21 & BB-24.



    The strike appears to be accurate in the following;



    * The berries are correct, having 19, with 9 left & 10 right

    and they are in the correct positions

    * The tail & wing feathers appear correct

    * The leaf positions are as they should be & point to the

    appropriate places

    * There is a correct die crack from the lowest claw straight

    south to the ribbon knot



    The only possible flaw may be the position of the left single leaf

    below S2 extending east of S2, but this may be the poor images

    of the coin.



    The condition of the surfaces are too hard to discern from the

    images provided.

    The rims & lettered edging are somewhat suspect as they

    appear to be in too fine a condition for a coin this age, but it's

    hard to say without closer examination.



    It would have been nice if the PCGS reviewers had explained

    what specifics led to their counterfeit conclusion so this could

    be a learning experience.



    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
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    TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: LoveMyLiberty

    It would have been nice if the PCGS reviewers had explained
    what specifics led to their counterfeit conclusion so this could
    be a learning experience.


    Thanks for posting that excellent analysis.

    The reason the graders don’t share WHY they consider it a counterfeit is in order to not help counterfeiters.

    You can’t tell them “the nose is too long” or “the 5 is too open” because the next time they won’t be.

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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A counterfeiter needs to be told the nose is too long if the nose is indeed too long? With magnification a good counterfeiter wouldn't need to be told that.



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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now that is scary, I would have thought it to be a real Flowing Hair Dollar. I don't have the funds to buy this value coin, but if I did, I might have bought it. Will PCGS tell the owner the
    reason it is counterfeit. Perhaps weight?
    Jim

    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Still looks good to me and possibly genuine.
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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I returned the coin via priority mail and the seller refunded the full price promptly. I lost return shipping and PCGS fees, but it was worth it to learn the lesson here. LoveMyLiberty, I appreciate your detailed analysis--very, very helpful. This coin fooled every person who initially responded to my thread and myself - both in pictures and in hand. In hand it looked just as good as the pictures. I've had 2 of these 1795 dollars before, and this one looked good to me.



    Scary thing is after looking at the seller's feedback, it looks like he sold another one of these 6 months ago and received positive feedback...seems to have a supply of them :/ ...should I send negative feedback to make others aware?
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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How is owning two of something a, "supply of them"?



    Seller refunded you promptly when really- could have given you a difficult time after the period of time that's passed.



    Please just move along and don't rain down a negative. Your 15 minutes of fame with this story is over.

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