what will she grade? i was super excited when i found her.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 3:15AM

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd...lling+opposite+meaning

AUandAG · September 1, 2015 3:21AM

AU50, why the excitement?

bob

lasvegasteddy · September 1, 2015 3:22AM

it looks like a cast copy or something
as all what should be sharp corners are rounded

OperationButter · September 1, 2015 3:23AM

Beautiful.

I was going to say much higher than what Bob graded her at. This is his series so I'll leave my grade out on this. Either way, its very nice. Congrats!

Broadstruck · September 1, 2015 3:31AM

AU Details

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 3:45AM

<< it looks like a cast copy or something
as all what should be sharp corners are rounded >>

i assure you, it is silver.

when i saw it, within 1 second, perhaps 1.5, i got soooo elated. a little urine may have came out.

the highest grade ive held/found, that i know of. tough crowd.
.

Unknown · September 1, 2015 3:48AM

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keyman64 · September 1, 2015 3:50AM

There are only 70+ VAMs for the date so maybe this has something to do with it?

lasvegasteddy · September 1, 2015 3:54AM

<< tough crowd. >>

lol
if ya had to deal with the master and senior chief's i did on board my ship in the navy
you wouldn't be no butterfly today either

argh

coindeuce · September 1, 2015 3:56AM

<< That's a contemporary counterfeit, ain't it? Date and devices look a touch off.

EDIT; Yep, VAM 60. I'd call it AU55. >>

+1 - You suck Lance.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 3:58AM

<< That's a contemporary counterfeit, ain't it? Date and devices look a touch off.

EDIT; Yep, VAM 60. I'd call it AU55. >>

but not contemporary. it was made decades ago.
.

AUandAG · September 1, 2015 3:59AM

I figured it was one of the many fakes for the date. Just to lazy to check it out, thanks LVT!

bob

Unknown · September 1, 2015 4:03AM

This content has been removed.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 4:04AM

<< it looks like a cast copy or something
as all what should be sharp corners are rounded >>

good eyes ted-e-bear

.

lasvegasteddy · September 1, 2015 4:05AM

so
finding certain fakes in this series is a noteworthy event and financial payday
they even have vam numbers for fakes too

yup
this is not my series

congrats if ya did good and this is something noteworthy

<<< goes back to looking for toners

seanq · September 1, 2015 4:06AM

<< 

<< 

<< That's a contemporary counterfeit, ain't it? Date and devices look a touch off.

EDIT; Yep, VAM 60. I'd call it AU55. >>

but not contemporary. it was made decades ago.
. >>

Contemporary counterfeit is a counterfeit that would have been made around the time they were circulating or thereabouts.

>>

This is one of the infamous micro-O reverse counterfeits? I think you should submit it, I hear they're worth way more in PCGS holders.

Sean Reynolds

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 4:09AM

<< Contemporary counterfeit is a counterfeit that would have been made around the time they were circulating or thereabouts.

>>

contemporary is synonymous with modern and needs an adjective/noun or something to reference the past but im not arguing.

good job on that fast attrib.

.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 4:12AM

<< This is one of the infamous micro-O reverse counterfeits? I think you should submit it, I hear they're worth way more in PCGS holders.

Sean Reynolds >>

not a micro, but part of the "family" of shared dies. extreme die incest hath occurred.

found it months ago. was looking for something else and came across the images and thought i'd share/have some fun.

you guys didn't disappoint!

<< +1 - You suck Lance. >>

- tyvm sir

.

steveben · September 1, 2015 4:15AM

that looks counterfeit to me. not my series though.

also, you should see a doctor about that urinary issue.

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 4:37AM

the term "contemporary" when used to describe a counterfeit generally means they were made while the coins were contemporary, or in active circulation, "contemporary" used in the modern sense means "of today" which would mean the coins that are circulating now, not what circulated 100 years ago

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 4:46AM

<< the term "contemporary" when used to describe a counterfeit generally means they were made while the coins were contemporary, or in active circulation, contemporary in the modern sense means of today, which would mean the coins that are circulating now, >>

i think my beef with the use of this term when applied to counterfeit coins is that it is just slapped to nearly every fake posted/viewed which is not applicable.

something needs to be used to delineate between something made, say 10 years ago or more vs something within the last decade.

i am still looking for this key phrase but would find it nice if when i read/hear someone say/type contemporary counterfeit, i will know instantly if it is modern or older americana/folksy etc.

as it is widely being used, the context doesn't transcend. imo

thought about using period fake but seems to have the same lack of time reference.
.

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 4:53AM

modern replica vs contemporary counterfeit

Boosibri · September 1, 2015 4:54AM

<< 

<< the term "contemporary" when used to describe a counterfeit generally means they were made while the coins were contemporary, or in active circulation, contemporary in the modern sense means of today, which would mean the coins that are circulating now, >>

i think my beef with the use of this term when applied to counterfeit coins is that it is just slapped to nearly every fake posted/viewed which is not applicable.

something needs to be used to delineate between something made, say 10 years ago or more vs something within the last decade.

i am still looking for this key phrase but would find it nice if when i read/hear someone say/type contemporary counterfeit, i will know instantly if it is modern or older americana/folksy etc.

as it is widely being used, the context doesn't transcend. imo

thought about using period fake but seems to have the same lack of time reference.. >>

I think by definition a contemporary counterfeit excludes modern forgeries. I don't see the need for a new term.

I would suggest though that a counterfeit that isn't from the period is not relevant to differentiate, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years it really doesn't matter unless special in some way if not of the period.

19Lyds · September 1, 2015 4:55AM

<< 

<< it looks like a cast copy or something
as all what should be sharp corners are rounded >>

i assure you, it is silver.

when i saw it, within 1 second, perhaps 1.5, i got soooo elated. a little urine may have came out.

the highest grade ive held/found, that i know of. tough crowd.
. >>

MS62 at best IMO.

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 4:56AM

I do agree with you that its a label that is stuck to almost everything counterfeit ... probably by those that enjoy using buzz words and simply don't know any better

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 5:00AM

few people realize how truly scarce contemporary counterfeit coinage actually is in higher grades. most were purposely artificially circulated after being made in order to "blend in" with pocket change. the counterfeiter didn't want his product to stand out and shiny new would stand out. high grade pieces are treasures to those of us that appreciate what they are

messydesk · September 1, 2015 5:00AM

Very nice! The only drawback is that it doesn't have enough wear on it to slip into a TPG holder.

<< so
finding certain fakes in this series is a noteworthy event and financial payday
they even have vam numbers for fakes too >>

In short, yes. This family of contemporary counterfeits (presumed to be made ca. 1905-10) is highly sought by collectors, and the VAM catalog is where they are documented. Collect them if you want, ignore them if you want, just like contemporary counterfeit bust halves, early gold, early 19th century Mexican silver, all of which have their followings.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 5:04AM

<< I think by definition a contemporary counterfeit excludes modern forgeries. >>

i'm willing to consider using it if i see an official definition of its use, on its own, referencing anything other than its synonym, modern.

i have learned, the very hard way, doing certain things, using phrases just because it has been commonly accepted (common-use) to do so, to be a nearly-fatal

mistake. years of these experiences has reinforced that i shouldn't just accept certain things that other people do/have done "just because."

when someone says contemporary counterfeit, my mind immediately thinks, modern.

ie, life in contemporary america.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 5:07AM

<< Very nice! The only drawback is that it doesn't have enough wear on it to slip into a TPG holder. >>

i probably shoulda sent it to icg for their imo, very cool counterfeit coin insert or segs.

sold it to someone else deep into older counterfeits for a good price for the condition that i have done/continue to do a fair amount of buying/selling to/with.
.

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 5:12AM

i may be wrong, but ive always been under the impression that the terms "contemporary counterfeit" and "modern replica" have two very distinctly different meanings

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 5:19AM

<< i may be wrong, but ive always been under the impression that the terms "contemporary counterfeit" and "modern replica" have two very distinctly different meanings >>

glad you brought that one up.

replica and counterfeit are synonymous, no? slight deviation of exact definition but still related but modern replica is the equivalent im trying to come up with for the older ones. something unmistakable.

---------------

for those that didnt/dont know. the gouge in the left field is a major pup/diagnostic. it just looks like major contact. but a confirmed pup it is.

there are numerous confirmed pups and is how the micro o fakes were eventually confirmed. shared pups across (for now) 4 years from 1896, 1900, 1901 and 1902.

im still waiting for a new year to be discovered and what a day it will be.

just like dcarr's major discovery of the 93-o. what a coin.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 5:28AM

.
i would like to confer that this coin and ones like it, in this condition, really stand out in-hand.

my images are sub-par and i can confirm that the coin was easier to identify in-person than from these images, even w/o the oodles of pups.

so for those of you on the fence wondering if you'd pick up on it, you can relax. plus if you find one like this, and know it, will be happy you did, i presume.
.

keets · September 1, 2015 5:36AM

I have always understood a Contemporary Counterfeit as one that was made when the coin was in current circulation, something after is typically referred to as a Modern Counterfeit.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 5:57AM

<< I have always understood a Contemporary Counterfeit as one that was made when the coin was in current circulation, something after is typically referred to as a Modern Counterfeit. >>

so you all know, i have read this several times today/previously and am not blind to it as worthy of consideration.

i guess a big problem is not knowing (having a list or thread like the tpg holder generations threads) when all the various types of older fakes were contemporary and the term was probably just accepted and lumped all older ones together (and some modern) because of the lack of info about production time frame info for the general public (of numismatics) for each type because as i understand it, they span all the way to our colonial times and every decade from then til now and differentiating the extensive types by decade isn't easy and probably closer to impossible. i may accept this term by default but i will still be on the lookout for a term that sits better with me.

the quality, methods, locale etc has diversified quite a bit for the majority of them, from my understanding.
.

messydesk · September 1, 2015 6:03AM

<< 

<< i may be wrong, but ive always been under the impression that the terms "contemporary counterfeit" and "modern replica" have two very distinctly different meanings >>

glad you brought that one up. replica and counterfeit are synonymous, no? >>

No. All counterfeits are replicas, but not all replicas are counterfeits. A replica of something is simply a copy of that thing. Counterfeits are replicas that have a criminal element to their being replicas, be it trademark or copyright infringement, the attempt to defraud a buyer, unauthorized coining of money, or what have you.

Numismatically, I can differentiate as follows:
"Contemporary counterfeit" refers to a counterfeit that was made at the same time an authentic coin was circulated, with the intent of circulating the counterfeit as money alongside it.
"Modern counterfeit" refers to a counterfeit that was made with the intent to deceive collectors.
"Restrike" refers to a coin made with genuine dies, but at a later date, and sometimes without the authority to issue it (unauthorized restrike).

Other coins that would be referred to as replicas (or reproductions) are those that don't fall into those categories, ranging from plastic play money and spielmarks to gift-shop reproductions to Gallery Mint reproductions.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 7:11AM

.
ty jb

perhaps where i'm going astray is with these iq test questions i was never particularly fond of:

If all Zips are Zoodles, and all Zoodles are Zonkers, then all Zips are definitely Zonkers.

.

Wabbit2313 · September 1, 2015 8:49AM

So what am I missing? Is this worth a lot of money? Enough to cause you to whiz yourself?

ebaybuyer · September 1, 2015 9:22AM

contemporary counterfeits are generally worth at least what a "real" piece is worth, and substantially more if in above average condition. take this one:

if genuine, it would be hard pressed to bring double melt. and it went almost ten times the value of what a "genuine" piece would sell for

link

more than one person realized what it was, and wanted it, but only one of them wanted it more

LanceNewmanOCC · September 1, 2015 9:39AM

<< So what am I missing? Is this worth a lot of money? Enough to cause you to whiz yourself?

>>

it was more about just finding one at normal bid price, that condition, my ability/skills to know what i was looking at and some other factors.

i love the high grade examples for many reasons, nearly at the top is because i can get some decent images for posterity/sharing education and since i do this for a living right now, yes, to make a little profit.

.

MonsterCoinz · September 1, 2015 10:19AM

I don't collect these, but the stars and date look way off

coindeuce · September 1, 2015 11:28AM

You guys are debating over the meaning of the word contemporary, when the proper definition of a counterfeit coin made in or around the same time of a genuine coin of the same or nearly same date should be contemporaneous counterfeit. Look it up in Merriam-Webster.

dcarr · September 1, 2015 2:11PM

That is a nice one.
Any of this privately made "family" are very rare in AU.

In case anyone is interested, I've posted one of my coin club presentations on this subject:
Vintage Counterfeit Morgan Dollars

LanceNewmanOCC · October 24, 2015 4:10AM

is auto-antonym, contranym or homograph applicable for contemporary, in this context?

.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 8, 2015 10:05AM

.

bought my baby back for $225 today.

soooooo psyched!

she is soo nice in-hand.

saw this one that has proven to be very rare today too. it is xf/au. a beauty. cant wait to be able to image it.

bought vam counterfeits "the family" in pcgs graded holders today too. heheheh

hope to get some more cash and get the other two. one xf, one au. whoo!

.

ricko · November 8, 2015 11:53PM

I agree with keets definition....

I have always understood a Contemporary Counterfeit as one that was made when the coin was in current circulation, something after is typically referred to as a Modern Counterfeit

Cheers, RickO

Yorkshireman · November 9, 2015 12:55AM

I am no expert, but that coin just doesn't look right to me.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 9, 2015 7:57AM

Originally posted by: Yorkshireman

I am no expert, but that coin just doesn't look right to me.

please elaborate.

.

dcarr · November 9, 2015 8:51AM

Nice finds

As of a month ago, I had discovered two of the known "privately Made" VAMs:

1893-O VAM-7

1902-O VAM-92

But I just found another one !

Don't have it in hand yet. But I'm certain that it is a previously-unknown "privately-made" family variety. Once I get it I'll be sending it off to Leroy Van Allen for confirmation and VAM number assignment.

I'll post pictures here when I get it.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 10, 2015 9:51AM

I'll post pictures here when I get it.

grats.

i eagerly await the images/listing!

.

dcarr · November 13, 2015 6:30PM

Here it is...

Recently acquired this 1893-O which is a previously unreported type (C3 reverse). It is definitely part of the vintage privately-made "family" since the obverse is the same die which struck the privately-made VAMs 6 and 7. The tell-tale mark is the small dash above the "B" of PLURIBUS.

The most interesting aspect of this one is the reverse. The other two known 1893-O privately-made types (VAMs 6 and 7) both have C4 reverses. This new discovery has a C3 reverse. And this reverse is not shared by ANY OTHER Morgan dollar (counterfeit OR genuine) that I know of. The marker for this reverse is a very odd misplaced denticle below the second "L" of DOLLAR. This would not occur on any genuine coin. And as such, is not a feature that could have been transferred from a genuine coin to a false die. So this feature would have been added to this die by some means other than a transfer from a genuine coin. This may give some clues as to how the "family" counterfeiters manufactured their dies.

UMCane · November 14, 2015 12:11AM

Those obverse stars ain't right

what will she grade? i was super excited when i found her.

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