That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Just to play devil's advocate with the terminology, since Morgan dollars did circulate into the 1960's, a counterfeit made in, say, 1950 to circulate at face value would still be a "contemporary counterfeit."
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
coins like this really make me wonder about a few dozen ive left behind.
more study may uncover a much bigger family than i originally speculated.
kudos.
i surely hope you will let me or jb or someone get pro lfcp and pups of your coins.
never know when someone out there in the world will be looking online and turn up the next clue. the requisit is as many gr8 images as we can provide, especially of xf+ coins with nice viewable pups.
Originally posted by: CaptHenway That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
We need to see a second specimen, but with the rarity of the first, that may not happen.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Originally posted by: CaptHenway Just to play devil's advocate with the terminology, since Morgan dollars did circulate into the 1960's, a counterfeit made in, say, 1950 to circulate at face value would still be a "contemporary counterfeit."
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
It is possible that the Soviets made them, although I doubt it. I also doubt that they were made as late as the 1950s or even the 1940s. A few of this vintage family of counterfeits are known in high AU condition. But the majority are known with extensive wear that is commensurate with a coin that was in circulation for a LONG time. Based on the circulation wear, when compared to other circulating issues, I think these "family" coins were made no later than the 1930s. They could have been made as early as 1901. But I suspect they were made over a span of years from perhaps 1910 to 1920 by displaced (former) US New Orleans Mint employees. One reason I think that is because all the known coins which have the characteristics of this family have "O" mint marks.
Originally posted by: CaptHenway That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
We need to see a second specimen, but with the rarity of the first, that may not happen.
That may be true. But in lieu of a second example, take a look at this image (below). Note how when struck, the inner edge of the rim contour is affected by an adjacent denticle. The effect is that, when struck, the gaps between the denticles seem to extend a little bit up onto the rim. This can be used to verify the as-struck denticle placement. Note blue arrows:
coins like this really make me wonder about a few dozen ive left behind.
more study may uncover a much bigger family than i originally speculated.
kudos.
i surely hope you will let me or jb or someone get pro lfcp and pups of your coins.
never know when someone out there in the world will be looking online and turn up the next clue. the requisit is as many gr8 images as we can provide, especially of xf+ coins with nice viewable pups. .
That could potentially be arranged some time (photos).
I've probably passed up a number of these coins over the years without knowing. When I started collecting them, I had a goal of obtaining one of each die pair. I got fairly close at one point. But then I fell further behind. Even though I was able to obtain a few that I needed, more than that number of new discoveries were made during that time.
At present I do not think it is possible for anyone to complete a set. There are several privately-known VAMs with only one or two known examples. There is only one known 1901-o micro-o, for example. And, assuming this new 1893-O will become VAM-8, it is the only one known at present. Other VAMs with only one or two known are:
1900-O VAM-59
1902-O VAM-92
1902-o VAM-96
And I assume there are others as well that are unique or nearly-unique.
I've managed to corner the market on the privately-made 1893-O
As far as I know:
1893-O VAM-6: 4 known, I own 3 (one in a PCGS holder).
1893-O VAM-7: 2 known, I own 1 (my discovery piece).
1893-O VAM-8: 1 known, I own it (my discovery piece).
Just to play devil's advocate with the terminology, since Morgan dollars did circulate into the 1960's, a counterfeit made in, say, 1950 to circulate at face value would still be a "contemporary counterfeit."
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
It is possible that the Soviets made them, although I doubt it. I also doubt that they were made as late as the 1950s or even the 1940s. A few of this vintage family of counterfeits are known in high AU condition. But the majority are known with extensive wear that is commensurate with a coin that was in circulation for a LONG time. Based on the circulation wear, when compared to other circulating issues, I think these "family" coins were made no later than the 1930s. They could have been made as early as 1901. But I suspect they were made over a span of years from perhaps 1910 to 1920 by displaced (former) US New Orleans Mint employees. One reason I think that is because all the known coins which have the characteristics of this family have "O" mint marks.
Could just mean that the counterfeiter was down South, and used coins from local circulation as his models.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
Here it is...
well done. that c3 rev is mind-boggling.
coins like this really make me wonder about a few dozen ive left behind.
more study may uncover a much bigger family than i originally speculated.
kudos.
i surely hope you will let me or jb or someone get pro lfcp and pups of your coins.
never know when someone out there in the world will be looking online and turn up the next clue. the requisit is as many gr8 images as we can provide, especially of xf+ coins with nice viewable pups.
.
That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
We need to see a second specimen, but with the rarity of the first, that may not happen.
Just to play devil's advocate with the terminology, since Morgan dollars did circulate into the 1960's, a counterfeit made in, say, 1950 to circulate at face value would still be a "contemporary counterfeit."
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
It is possible that the Soviets made them, although I doubt it. I also doubt that they were made as late as the 1950s or even the 1940s. A few of this vintage family of counterfeits are known in high AU condition. But the majority are known with extensive wear that is commensurate with a coin that was in circulation for a LONG time. Based on the circulation wear, when compared to other circulating issues, I think these "family" coins were made no later than the 1930s. They could have been made as early as 1901. But I suspect they were made over a span of years from perhaps 1910 to 1920 by displaced (former) US New Orleans Mint employees. One reason I think that is because all the known coins which have the characteristics of this family have "O" mint marks.
That doubled denticle is quite bizarre. Notice how the main part of the denticle is closer to the denticle to the left of it. Any chance this is PMD of some sort that pushed the denticle over?
I do not believe there is any chance that the denticle was moved by impact. The surface texture of the underlying exposed denticle appears as-struck, with no evidence of sliding impact.
We need to see a second specimen, but with the rarity of the first, that may not happen.
That may be true. But in lieu of a second example, take a look at this image (below). Note how when struck, the inner edge of the rim contour is affected by an adjacent denticle. The effect is that, when struck, the gaps between the denticles seem to extend a little bit up onto the rim. This can be used to verify the as-struck denticle placement. Note blue arrows:
Here it is...
well done. that c3 rev is mind-boggling.
coins like this really make me wonder about a few dozen ive left behind.
more study may uncover a much bigger family than i originally speculated.
kudos.
i surely hope you will let me or jb or someone get pro lfcp and pups of your coins.
never know when someone out there in the world will be looking online and turn up the next clue. the requisit is as many gr8 images as we can provide, especially of xf+ coins with nice viewable pups.
.
That could potentially be arranged some time (photos).
I've probably passed up a number of these coins over the years without knowing. When I started collecting them, I had a goal of obtaining one of each die pair. I got fairly close at one point. But then I fell further behind. Even though I was able to obtain a few that I needed, more than that number of new discoveries were made during that time.
At present I do not think it is possible for anyone to complete a set. There are several privately-known VAMs with only one or two known examples. There is only one known 1901-o micro-o, for example. And, assuming this new 1893-O will become VAM-8, it is the only one known at present. Other VAMs with only one or two known are:
1900-O VAM-59
1902-O VAM-92
1902-o VAM-96
And I assume there are others as well that are unique or nearly-unique.
I've managed to corner the market on the privately-made 1893-O
As far as I know:
1893-O VAM-6: 4 known, I own 3 (one in a PCGS holder).
1893-O VAM-7: 2 known, I own 1 (my discovery piece).
1893-O VAM-8: 1 known, I own it (my discovery piece).
so long as you know in advance, part of my goal in sharing this quality info/images is to
INCREASE populations, marriages and of course knowledge. lol
.
Just to play devil's advocate with the terminology, since Morgan dollars did circulate into the 1960's, a counterfeit made in, say, 1950 to circulate at face value would still be a "contemporary counterfeit."
Though it is most likely that the "family" was made shortly after 1902, I will not rule out the possibility that the Soviets were pushing them out either before or after WW2. Look at what they did with the Mercury dimes.
TD
It is possible that the Soviets made them, although I doubt it. I also doubt that they were made as late as the 1950s or even the 1940s. A few of this vintage family of counterfeits are known in high AU condition. But the majority are known with extensive wear that is commensurate with a coin that was in circulation for a LONG time. Based on the circulation wear, when compared to other circulating issues, I think these "family" coins were made no later than the 1930s. They could have been made as early as 1901. But I suspect they were made over a span of years from perhaps 1910 to 1920 by displaced (former) US New Orleans Mint employees. One reason I think that is because all the known coins which have the characteristics of this family have "O" mint marks.
Could just mean that the counterfeiter was down South, and used coins from local circulation as his models.