Advice sought. Buying an undergraded coin

topstuf · March 16, 2015 2:09AM

I'm looking at a coin I like.
It is what I would call "quite" undergraded.
The seller knows it's undergraded and has priced it at what I agree is the proper grade but I don't want to pay that premium if ...I... have to crack it.
Besides, I'm getting too old to do all that waiting and worrying.

Gee, I may have answered my question.

No I haven't. Since I haven't yet contacted the guy, should I offer him a WEE bit over the stated grade or tell him I....would...pay his price if HE got it regraded properly.

Talking 45 on label and probly 53 in fact.

What would YOU do.? OTHER than buy it and chance the crackout.

originalisbest · March 16, 2015 2:19AM

<< I'm looking at a coin I like.
It is what I would call "quite" undergraded.
The seller knows it's undergraded and has priced it at what I agree is the proper grade but I don't want to pay that premium if ...I... have to crack it.
Besides, I'm getting too old to do all that waiting and worrying.

Gee, I may have answered my question.

No I haven't. Since I haven't yet contacted the guy, should I offer him a WEE bit over the stated grade or tell him I....would...pay his price if HE got it regraded properly.

Talking 45 on label and probly 53 in fact.

What would YOU do.? OTHER than buy it and chance the crackout. >>

If you ultimately want it in a slab at the "proper" grade have it regraded by him now. If you crack and submit later yourself you may find some hidden reason it was netted down to 45.

If you ultimately want it raw, go for it and crack away. But if you do you may see the reason it was netted to 45, you may choose to submit it in the future, and still it may come back 45 and you won't know why.

I would wager there's likely a well-hidden mark or two or a line in the coin, perhaps on the rim.

In any case, time will tell.

topstuf · March 16, 2015 2:22AM

There's a CAC bean on it if that makes any difference.

Sounds to me like he sells it at the lablelled grade or I put it out of my mind.

291fifth · March 16, 2015 2:31AM

Pass. Why should you have to take the risk/expense of cracking it out and having it regraded. If the seller is so sure of the upgrade why didn't he do it himself?

ad4400 · March 16, 2015 2:36AM

A cliché I hear on the bourse floor often enough is "if you spend X holder money, you should get an X holdered coin". Exceptions abound to this, but it does have a good bit of merit as well.

asheland · March 16, 2015 2:43AM

I'd pass unless the spread is minimal.

BryceM · March 16, 2015 2:47AM

You have seen the coin in-hand, or you are basing your judgement from a photo?

Remember, two or three professional graders handled the coin raw, in ideal light, in ideal conditions. While it's possible that it's under-graded, it's far more likely that it was graded correctly. There is more to grading than the amount of wear that can be seen in a photograph. Hairlines and luster are particularly difficult to judge.

Also, don't underestimate the fees associated with regrading or the risks associated with cracking it out. It can easily take several trips through the mail and few submissions to get it back in the "right" holder with the "right" stickers.

keyman64 · March 16, 2015 2:54AM

Sounds like you would CARRY ALL OF THE RISK, REAP LITTLE IF ANY REWARD and MIGHT JUST END UP WITH A HASSLE to deal with.

silverpop · March 16, 2015 2:59AM

the seller paid for a opinion and wasn't happy with it so now he is trying to unload this by saying it's under graded and would grade higher

maybe it would or maybe it won't but why gamble on such a coin is the issue

TomB · March 16, 2015 3:00AM

Too many unknown details. Regardless, it appears you do not want the coin under these conditions.

Christos · March 16, 2015 3:12AM

Hey Top Stuff what color is the bean on the coin?

Do you need the coin in the higher grade holder or is the coin it self more important?

MsMorrisine · March 16, 2015 3:16AM

if you need in P53 tell the person you'll take it once it is in a P53 holder.

shorecoll · March 16, 2015 3:25AM

How rare is it in 53? Is it one they're tougher on? Have him get it regraded or offer in between money.

BillJones · March 16, 2015 3:35AM

My view on such items is that I am willing to pay a premium, but it is nowhere near the price for the grade, "The coin ought to be."

Here's an example. A dealer has gold dollar from the late 1870s or the 1880s, and the coin REALLY looks like Proof, but it's graded as a Mint State piece.** I think that there is decent chance it is a Proof, and I ask the price. The dealers says he thinks it is a Proof and is asking a slightly watered down Proof price.

There is nowhere to go with that. The dealer is passing all of the risk that the coin will come back as a Mint State piece if you did crack and re-submit it to YOU. YOU have no upside. He's taking all the chips. There's only one thing to do PASS.

** For those who don't know the series the gold dollars from the late 1870s to 1889 had very low mintages. As a result there are many P-L coins from those years, and sometimes it is hard to tell if a coin is a Proof or a business strike example. Before third party grading the rule of thumb for honest dealers was, when in doubt call it Unc. Now it's whatever is on the slab.

topstuf · March 16, 2015 3:45AM

<< How rare is it in 53? Is it one they're tougher on? Have him get it regraded or offer in between money. >>

To this and a few more comments, I really LIKE the coin. Color plus scarce plus gold always turns me on.

But problems don't.

And problems don't seem rare enough.

Best to skip it.

Unless he'll sell at what it's marked to be.

SeattleSlammer · March 16, 2015 3:52AM

There's a guy who insists that the majority of his wares are indeed better than the stated grade on the plastic...and he's always asking the next grade (or two!) up in price...and he won't negotiate a stitch and seems to ignore the suggestion that he get them regraded higher if he's going to insist on all that money...his coins sit and sit for years and years and years.....but to each his own...

Christos · March 16, 2015 4:06AM

If the coin were raw would you pay near the asking price? If the answer is no then that is the answer to your question.

SeattleSlammer · March 16, 2015 4:11AM

But I'll still pay very strong for slabbed coins that I think are under graded...especially when they're pretty.

TopographicOceans · March 16, 2015 4:13AM

You should always pay for what the coin should be instead of what it is.
That way if it becomes what it should be, well, then you'd be even.

Boosibri · March 16, 2015 4:17AM

I would personally rather have the best EF45 ever than an average AU53. There is something pschological about having an average coin for the grade in my collection that I can;t get over.

That said if it isn't a special coin and can readily be found in most grades and in comparable conditions, why bother?

CoinJunkie · March 16, 2015 4:23AM

<< If the coin were raw would you pay near the asking price? If the answer is no then that is the answer to your question. >>

I disagree. It sounds like he'd pay near 53 money if the coin were raw. Given that expert
graders have judged it to be a 45, you'd be foolish (IMHO) to trust your own assessment
over theirs, particularly since 99% of the buyers won't when it comes time to sell it.

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 16, 2015 5:07AM

<< I really LIKE the coin. Color plus scarce plus gold always turns me on. >>

I don't know the coin or the seller, but if it is indeed a scarce gold issue with choice original color, these routinely sell for well more than "regular" examples in the same grade.

Sonorandesertrat · March 16, 2015 5:15AM

<< 

<< I really LIKE the coin. Color plus scarce plus gold always turns me on. >>

I don't know the coin or the seller, but if it is indeed a scarce gold issue with choice original color, these routinely sell for well more than "regular" examples in the same grade. >>

I agree. I have routinely paid the next grade up (MUCH more for some Morgans) for choice coins with nice surfaces and color.

Boosibri · March 16, 2015 5:17AM

<< 

<< I really LIKE the coin. Color plus scarce plus gold always turns me on. >>

I don't know the coin or the seller, but if it is indeed a scarce gold issue with choice original color, these routinely sell for well more than "regular" examples in the same grade. >>

Please send me the link to the coin in question.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 16, 2015 6:18AM

<< I....would...pay his price if HE got it regraded properly.
>>

I think that is pretty unreasonable.

tradedollarnut · March 16, 2015 6:33AM

Gold sticker or green? If gold, pay it. If green, don't. Doesn't mean it won't upgrade but does mean it's not a slam dunk.

leothelyon · March 16, 2015 7:13AM

Just tell the seller to submit it for you 10 times until you're satisfied with a label you'll buy it at. sheesh

Wabbit2313 · March 16, 2015 8:02AM

Having a 45 jump to 53 is significantly less likely than a Morgan jumping from 63 to 64. Even on a bad day, 3 graders will not usually see a coin 2 grades lower down to XF.

topstuf · March 16, 2015 9:44AM

<< 

<< I....would...pay his price if HE got it regraded properly.
>>

I think that is pretty unreasonable. >>

How so?

If a dealer offers a coin in an XF holder and states that it is ...REEEEEELLLLYYYY.... a 53 to 55, and PRICES it at ....HIS.... opinion, then I think it is very reasonable to consider that he believes it to be HIS grade ....ergo... IM-properly graded? .............. In his opinion.

Right?

Soooooooooooooooo.... my unreasonableness is demonstrated by what?

topstuf · March 16, 2015 9:52AM

<< If the coin were raw would you pay near the asking price? If the answer is no then that is the answer to your question. >>

Ab-so-lutey NOT!
Then, not only would I be playing the submission GAME and taking the chance that it would AGAIN reappear in the lower grade.

In this age of not-cheap coins......and.... gennies.....and ....questionable roundness, etc....

I do not buy raw unless rip-deal-no-brainer-dead-certain-whoopty-woo NO QUESTION condition.

And then....IF I'm correct, I get a kiss.

Nope. Been in this too long to believe I can outGUESS companies who can put "finest known" coins in 64 holders.

Now ....when I was a 1970s collector and had the "eye" ....WITHOUT any slab assistance.... sure.
Grade differentials were...what?.... maybe 10% tops?

Nope. Them days is long gone.

topstuf · March 16, 2015 9:52AM

<< Gold sticker or green? If gold, pay it. If green, don't. Doesn't mean it won't upgrade but does mean it's not a slam dunk. >>

Good answer. It's green.

topstuf · March 16, 2015 9:56AM

<< Just tell the seller to submit it for you 10 times until you're satisfied with a label you'll buy it at. sheesh >>

Best answer.

I have sheeshed along to other paths.

Thanks for replies. Interesting, educational, and helpful.

Adios to this one.

Oh, and CRO it isn't a rarity in my book. Scarce? Sure. Pretty? Kinda. But not staggeringly.

Night all.

MsMorrisine · March 16, 2015 9:56AM

Ooof

Suggesting a regrade might be tough to pull off then without irritating the dealer.

You ever see the dealer at shows?

topstuf · March 16, 2015 10:00AM

<< Ooof

Suggesting a regrade might be tough to pull off then without irritating the dealer.

You ever see the dealer at shows? >>

Nope. Don't even know him. Found the thing on a random walk through Collector's Corner.
From when I was in the bizz, I know most of the guys who are still in if not dead.
Maybe a few who are but haven't realized it.

I hope this thread has helped someone besides me.
I....might.... call him now.
Make an introduction and enemy at same time. LOL

sparky64 · March 16, 2015 10:28AM

<< 

<< Ooof

Suggesting a regrade might be tough to pull off then without irritating the dealer.

You ever see the dealer at shows? >>

Nope. Don't even know him. Found the thing on a random walk through Collector's Corner.
From when I was in the bizz, I know most of the guys who are still in if not dead.
Maybe a few who are but haven't realized it.

I hope this thread has helped someone besides me.
I....might.... call him now.
Make an introduction and enemy at same time. LOL >>

I like your style, topstuf.

Type2 · March 16, 2015 11:07AM

<< I'd pass unless the spread is minimal. >>

Same let him play the game, If you took it to him will he pay you more for it? I don't think so he will say I can only pay you what is on the holder.

Walkerfan · March 16, 2015 11:19AM

<< Pass. Why should you have to take the risk/expense of cracking it out and having it regraded. If the seller is so sure of the upgrade why didn't he do it himself? >>

I would pay a small premium for it but NOT for the next 2 grades up. Although I've done it before; I rarely pay for 'wishful thinking'. It's just NOT a good idea. As others have said, too---there may be an unseen reason for the 45 grade.

ebaybuyer · March 16, 2015 11:44AM

buy the coin not the holder. if you feel (as you've already stated) that its under graded, why no pay what you feel it is worth ? to all of those that suggest "demanding"
the seller do anything, try that yourself, just be certain you never ever want to buy another coin from that dealer

Cougar1978 · March 16, 2015 11:57AM

1. If the seller believes its undergraded, why has he not submitted it.
2. Have you looked at this coin sight seen under a glass in 100 watt light?
3. What is your grade for it? Forget the bean stuff.....What matters is what you think and where you believe it falls in the grade range. Based on your experience of crackouts, what do you think about the chances.
4. On Crackouts it takes decisiveness to make the deal. I win some, lose some but its been a considerable positive score in my favor. If it makes you nervous, then perhaps its not for you.
5. Assuming I wanted it, I would make the seller an offer that works for me based on its current grade / bid value not what he or the bean guy thinks as I could care less. It would be based on what I grade it and if I feel it has potential to upgrade and worth any risk of crackout. If the risk / return was not there for me in the deal or I felt it could be too high risk beyond my risk threshold then pass. I bet he has hawked it to a lot of people with the "its undergraded" marketing hype.

It sounds like to me he is trying to get a really high retail price for his merchandise. Possibly he has submitted it a few times and failed to upgrade. There is all kinda BS on the bourse. You have to sift thru it and decisively jump on the deal that is for you.

topstuf · March 17, 2015 3:33AM

and jump AWAY from the deals that are NOT for you.

asheland · March 17, 2015 4:37AM

I certainly wouldn't buy from this dealer going on what I've read here.

topstuf · March 17, 2015 4:43AM

<< I certainly wouldn't buy from this dealer going on what I've read here. >>

I don't feel that way at all. We haven't even discussed the coin and its price.
All he did was put it on his website and it's ME who is having the tug-o-war over what to do about the thing.

I don't think he has done ANYTHING wrong.

Not even questionable or remiss.

asheland · March 17, 2015 5:04AM

What's the price difference from the XF grade to the AU grade?

asheland · March 17, 2015 5:06AM

I must have misread or assumed something, my bad.
If it's just simply priced the next grade up, so be it. Nothing wrong with that. Just see if he'll do better on the price.
I'd pay a little over the price guide if I really liked the coin...

topstuf · March 17, 2015 5:15AM

<< What's the price difference from the XF grade to the AU grade? >>

Who knows?

PCGS price shows XF at 640 and 55 at 1050
Numismedia is a bit more generous.

He wants 1050 and the ...same coin... sold in 2012 for 900

I looked again and the fire has dwindled.

asheland · March 17, 2015 5:25AM

I see.
I guess it depends how bad you want the coin.

I've paid way over for a few coins in the past, still own them and don't regret it at all.

mozin · March 17, 2015 5:28AM

PCGS graders call it a 45. John Albanese calls it a high end 45, but not good enough for a 50. No way this dealer is a better grader than these folks who have already been paid to grade this coin. Pass on the coin, and if I were you, I would also not waste my time with this dealer in the future.

telephoto1 · March 17, 2015 6:34AM

<< 

<< What's the price difference from the XF grade to the AU grade? >>

Who knows?

PCGS price shows XF at 640 and 55 at 1050
Numismedia is a bit more generous.

He wants 1050 and the ...same coin... sold in 2012 for 900

I looked again and the fire has dwindled.

>>

Interesting.
Bottom line if I am the buyer and I'm really interested in the piece... I'd tell him if he's so convinced of the undergrade then he should put his money where his mouth is. Send it in for upgrade review. If it comes back 53 or higher I buy it plus pay the fees. If it's 45 or lower, no deal and he eats the fees. Can't get more fair than that. If he immediately backpedals then you know he likely already tried to upgrade and failed and/or is simply trying to bail out of a burial job.

AMRC · March 17, 2015 6:41AM

You should only be in the game of second guessing the grading houses if you are a better grader than they are. Otherwise, the odds are against you. Personally I pretty much walk away from any dealer who prices a coin "above" the posted grade value without sufficient other market reasons (i.e. tone, eye appeal, CAC etc.). If I ever wind up owning a coin I THINK is undergraded, back it goes to PCGS. I don't try and sell it as such. What if it does not upgrade? Does that a happy customer make?

FallGuy · March 17, 2015 7:02AM

"Bottom line if I am the buyer and I'm really interested in the piece... I'd tell him if he's so convinced of the undergrade then he should put his money where his mouth is. Send it in for upgrade review. If it comes back 53 or higher I buy it plus pay the fees. If it's 45 or lower, no deal and he eats the fees. Can't get more fair than that. If he immediately backpedals then you know he likely already tried to upgrade and failed and/or is simply trying to bail out of a burial job. "

This is spot on and a very reasonable proposal to someone touting a coin as undergraded.

I have seen way too many coins that are average for the grade (at best) with this moniker in the sales pitch...so much so that it is a red flag for me anymore unless coming from a highly reputable dealer.

ToughCOINS · March 18, 2015 2:50AM

The TPG has told you the coin is authentic . . . that's the black and white distinction they establish with their service. Grading is the subjective piece of their job . . . a grey area.

Remember, you're buying a coin, and not plastic . . . it's now up to you to determine what the coin is worth to you.

Advice sought. Buying an undergraded coin

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