<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder". >>
"" Not at all. The 'buyer' needs nothing but claim SNAD and the seller is obligated to repay - and you may not get the item back (see below). When silver dropped by $15 in April and May of a couple of years ago, I had to accept about 20 returns for SNAD that were a month to 6 weeks old sales. I'm getting returns now because of a 10% drop in silver.
This is singularly the most important clause on that page: Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability.[i/]"
So if I make a SNAD claim that the coin is not as described by the seller and verified by the top TPG, that the coin is now shown to be damaged and the toning to be counterfeit, because of this ruined etc ..... By doing this through PayPal and having them dispute it as they make the decision it is feasible that the case could be found in my favor. Another way would be to simply switch out the coin and through PayPal the seller would be left on the hook at 5.5 months as pics are not even needed . I state again that what the listing states does not matter as you are making a PayPal claim. Buy a certified high dollar CC Morgan and buy a copy on the bay and switch them out and send to TPG to get it certified as a counterfeit and now you have a real one for free! I hope PayPal is reading this thread as many ways have been shown to possibly manipulate the limited definitions of policy put in place.
<< <i>Some one needs to do a Class auction on them. How E-Bay put me out of business..... and i can only use Paypal for payment that E-Bay own's. Maybe we can start a new way to pay. >>
<< <i>I still believe that 95% of the buyers on ebay are honest. What paypal is doing is similar to the chargeback policy of credit cards. I have been lucky I guess. I never had a chargeback placed on any of my items that I have sold. Some as high as $5K. >>
<< <i>Can we option to only accept credit cards or personal checks as payment on ebay? >>
If you are a for-real merchant with a merchant credit card processing account you can have buyers click through to your processor's site for accepting payment in the same way that most independent web sites work. THAT is feepay's requirement - to accept online payments.
<< <i>I still believe that 95% of the buyers on ebay are honest. What paypal is doing is similar to the chargeback policy of credit cards. I have been lucky I guess. I never had a chargeback placed on any of my items that I have sold. Some as high as $5K. >>
>>
Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law.
<< <i>So I have a PayPal debit card that they are pushing on me to activate so I can use it to shop anywhere a debit card is taken. Using that card would turn any transaction into a PayPal transaction. Thus I purchase $20,000.00 worth of raw high end Buffalo nickels from my local coin shop. 4 months down the line I contact PayPal and claim they are counterfeit and place a SNAD claim who determines they are counterfeit (they will be as I will have counterfeits on the cheap at ali to replace the real coins)and who refunds my money as the counterfeits are also destroyed? >>
How does PP determine that the counterfeits are actually destroyed? Or do they just take your word for it?
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed?
There are a lot of variables in which this change could be used to the benefit of those with very loose morals. >>
Good luck getting a nice 1883-S [assume it is ms] for $500.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return. >>
Didn't read the thread. Was there a disclaimer in the listing that opening the box finalized the sale? >>
<< <i>Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law. >>
And precisely what points are different? I can not imagine PP putting policies out there that conflict with Federal Law. PP is a pretty big corporation and they have plenty of lawyers on staff. I would like to see the precise discrepancy and where you found the Federal Law that PP policies conflict with.
Ludicrous.This carp has the potential to drive a lot of little guys like me right out of ebayville.
"United States antitrust law is a collection of federal and state government laws, which regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers. The main statutes are the Sherman Act 1890, the Clayton Act 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations which could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power."
Mandatory 6-month return policy is restraint of trade?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
This is not a mandatory return period. It's the ability for a customer to file a complaint 180 days after the sale. Two totally different things.
As for restraint of trade, I'm not a lawyer, but as long as they treat everyone fairly and equitably, they can do what ever they'd like. You are not obligated to use Paypal.
<< <i>Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law. >>
And precisely what points are different? I can not imagine PP putting policies out there that conflict with Federal Law. PP is a pretty big corporation and they have plenty of lawyers on staff. I would like to see the precise discrepancy and where you found the Federal Law that PP policies conflict with. >>
I guess you're too lazy to check for yourself? It can be found on dozens, if not hundreds of web sites, including govt sites.
Federal statutes require the buyer to attempt work out any problems with a seller before making any claim to the card issuer / processor. PP has inserted itself into the process without any comment on procedures. An actual reversal (charge back) is a black mark on the merchant. A couple too many and that business will be barred by the industry from processing any credit card transactions. I know of businesses that have closed because of too many reversals and their inability to then accept cc purchases. The failure of PP to comment on instituting procedures which give merchants an equal footing & fighting chance could doom that merchant's retail bizness. PP has no business circumventing established protocols. While feepay can and does insert itself into transactions as sole arbiter, it does not follow that PP can do that especially to independent sites. I decide my best practices on my site with the informed blessing of my processor. Any merchant that buys into PP's practices does so at great risk to their business health.
This is not a mandatory return period. It's the ability for a customer to file a complaint 180 days after the sale. Two totally different things.
Do you have any thoughts about what PayPal is trying to accomplish by allowing a customer to file a complaint 180 days after the sale? I have bought coins from ebay sellers and,on ripping open the package to see what I bought,can tell you within about a minute,every single time,whether I want to keep the coin or not.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
As for restraint of trade, I'm not a lawyer, but as long as they treat everyone fairly and equitably, they can do what ever they'd like. You are not obligated to use Paypal.
How is it possible to avoid PayPal if you're a "small potatoes" seller like me? You have sellers and you have buyers on ebay both of which are deserving of fair and equitable treatment.Is hanging a pita thing,the ability of the buyer to file a complaint up to 180 days after the sale has completed, over seller's head fair and equitable?
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Hamlet (1.4),Marcellus to Horatio
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You can get a credit card processor thru your bank. Easy to do. That way you can avoid paypal altogether, but then you fall under that processors rules. I think you'll find most processors rules pretty liberal when it comes to customers ability to chargeback, and not that different from Paypal. You'll also find they changes the rules all the time.
As for treating all parties fair and equitable, they are treating ALL sellers the same. You must differentiate between buyers and sellers.
For the record, I hate paypal and hate e-bay and hate all the changes. I'm just trying to point out that it just business. E-Bay and Paypal are trying to provide as much of a buyer friendly policy as they can so that they can attract more buyers.....yes the sellers pay the fees, but that's just like Wal-Mart or any other major store. That's their competition.
You have choices and you don't have to use e-bay or paypal.
Done with this thread as it's getting antagonistic, like too many threads on these forums.
<< <i>As for restraint of trade, I'm not a lawyer, but as long as they treat everyone fairly and equitably, they can do what ever they'd like. You are not obligated to use Paypal.
How is it possible to avoid PayPal if you're a "small potatoes" seller like me? You have sellers and you have buyers on ebay both of which are deserving of fair and equitable treatment.Is hanging a pita thing,the ability of the buyer to file a complaint up to 180 days after the sale has completed, over seller's head fair and equitable?
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Hamlet (1.4),Marcellus to Horatio >>
The funniest thing I ever experienced in business is another business trying to appease my customers more than me and then acting like I owe them something after I paid for "rental space". But I'm a simple minded business man. Service comes with a smile
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder". >>
That is my point! Using my logic you could file a SNAD on your purchase through PayPal and not ebay as the coin was sold at a different grade and the #1 coin grading service in the US stated it was not the correct grade as sold. This is very easy to see. Again this is why better language is needed pertaining to this change. Remember this is a PayPal regulation and not Ebay and as such you can go right around the Ebay regulations.It is PayPal that will be making the determination/decision regarding the outcome of a SNAD case.
180 Days is a joke. I was thinking about dipping a toe back in to sell a few items but not after reading that. Not knowing for 6 months whether you may have to have to refund a purchase? I don't know of any retailer that would allow me to return an item after that long for a full refund.
<< <i>I am failing to see how this change makes things that much worse, if at all. I suspect that 99% of all SNAD claims are filed within 45 days anyway. >>
Well, I was going to say that's because you have nothing for sale as it says in your sig line, but I clicked it and maybe this is your alt user name?
If I sell 9 items for 60K to the same buyer and 5 months later that buyer has cash problems you can bet a snad claim would throw me for a wrinkle if I had to refund that 60K to finance some bozos stock losses...
We had several 10 oz silver NGC hockeypucks returned as SNAD which we had to eat a $120 to $180 loss (each one) when silver made some sudden drops in 2011. We even took VIDEOS as we unpacked the returned items at the post office in witness of a postal employee, showing the serial number matched that of the listing. EVERY one of our protests were dismissed, and the money taken out our Paypal account. It's called effing criminal enterprise.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>We had several 10 oz silver NGC hockeypucks returned as SNAD which we had to eat a $120 to $180 loss (each one) when silver made some sudden drops in 2011. We even took VIDEOS as we unpacked the returned items at the post office in witness of a postal employee, showing the serial number matched that of the listing. EVERY one of our protests were dismissed, and the money taken out our Paypal account. It's called effing criminal enterprise. >>
10 oz hockey pucks? No wonder they were returned as SNAD
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply. >>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim.
<< <i>We had several 10 oz silver NGC hockeypucks returned as SNAD which we had to eat a $120 to $180 loss (each one) when silver made some sudden drops in 2011. We even took VIDEOS as we unpacked the returned items at the post office in witness of a postal employee, showing the serial number matched that of the listing. EVERY one of our protests were dismissed, and the money taken out our Paypal account. It's called effing criminal enterprise. >>
They only made 5 oz. ones at the mint. How did you get 10 oz. ones?
Is eBay hiring legislators from Minnesota and moving offshore, too ? Thinking it might be a good time be more of a buyer than seller, now. Buyer's paradise.
There are 2 sides to the benefit. On the one side a buying account to screw sellers. On the other side, a selling account to screw buyers.
It's merely time for me to open another account for POWER BUYING to go with my POWER SELLING. This is a lesson in "HOW to PowerScrew from both ends"
Excuse the sarcasm , it's just that my intelligence has been insulted enough, and I'm one of the dumb ones.
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply. >>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim. >>
Really?....I beg to differ. I've had 2 SNAD claims on bullion silver bars produced by a reputable dealer, ( RCM 100 oz bars) sold after the run up in 2011. Clearly listed with no returns and pictures of the bar up for auction which started at $.99, along with a highlighted & underlined statement: "before placing a bid, due to the volatility of the PM market returns are not possible." eBay cited in my favor and dismissed the claim. Apparent case of buyers remorse, price of silver was falling at the time. Both SNAD claims were similar in scope.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
These policies are exactly why I stopped selling on eBay in 2011. Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not worth it
<< <i>These policies are exactly why I stopped selling on eBay in 2011. Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not worth it >>
and do what? sell on Craigslist?,low ball dealers? Amazon? eBay, is not perfect and even with all it's "alleged faults," it has the largest audience for your coins. I've been buying and selling on eBay for 14 years, without any Major issues. Clear pictures, honest write-ups and descriptions, promptly mailing the coins in a quality mailer (not some homemade #10 envelope). Using eBay's parameters to block problem buyers. Keep your own "blocked buyers list" up to date. Don't get involved in a pi-sing match with a disgruntled customer, just refund their money block them and move on.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>These policies are exactly why I stopped selling on eBay in 2011. Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not worth it >>
and do what? sell on Craigslist?,low ball dealers? Amazon? eBay, is not perfect and even with all it's "alleged faults," it has the largest audience for your coins. I've been buying and selling on eBay for 14 years, without any Major issues. Clear pictures, honest write-ups and descriptions, promptly mailing the coins in a quality mailer (not some homemade #10 envelope). Using eBay's parameters to block problem buyers. Keep your own "blocked buyers list" up to date. Don't get involved in a pi-sing match with a disgruntled customer, just refund their money block them and move on. >>
Same here. Bought and sold hundreds and hundreds of coins, had three or four returned and some silver dimes lost in the mail, otherwise most are honest and the transactions solid. A-holes are promptly blocked.
I would have to give up the hobby if not for ebay. Local Dealers pay maybe 60% of what Ebay can command. Local dealers do not have the breadth of coins that Ebay has. Ebay has the most eyes and buyers period. Most coins on ebay are now fixed price (few true auction) and overpriced. That is what makes Ebay really suck IMO.
<< <i>This new PayPal policy is definitely a concern. I can only imagine PayPal's transactions decreasing as a result of this change.
- Ian >>
What I would like to know, which "brain dead" exec. came up with that idea. >>
Several people have accused me of coming up with all the crazy eBay/PayPal policies changes in the last few years, since ultimately I benefit from them. :-)
Anyone happen to think it's just a way to get more users to hold their funds in PayPal for a longer period of time? So they actually have more money on the float at anytime. The more I think about it I don't think I ever had a SNAD claim, Had a few returns but those were not for SNAD.
I haven't read through all 8 pages, just quickly perused them....but I didn't see any posts that revealed the 180 days is temporary, and the cutoff date is Dec 31, 2014. I'll expound.....
I received a call from ebay, about dinner time yesterday....now, for starters, she was calling from the states (I asked), and, well, let's just say there was no communication problem/issues which prevented us from conversing about ANY topic, and I'll leave it at that...
The reason for the call was to try to sell me an ebay store, as, obviously, with a quick glance, they could see I'm not. But, was advised that my sales are such that the added discounts I'd receive from having a store, I just can't really ignore the fact I'd actually benefit from them, enough to make a difference.
After making her case showing I would benefit from a store, she asked me to voice any issues/questions I might have in order to fully consider buying a store, and we'd talk about. I told her there IS, in fact, a HUGE issue that might not just affect my decision to buy a store, but it IS making me consider (I did say 'a bunch' are in this very same dilemma) whether I want to continue selling on ebay AT ALL (I HAD to 'matter of factly' mention 'an auction company that can easily take on eBay's coin category). She then asked me to discuss it, and possibly she might be able to work in a few extra % points, though there would be extra criteria to meet (she was tossing me a bone, but I admire her going that few extra yards (it is SO easy to get things accomplished when there is absolutely NO communication gap)..she sounded like she was higher up in the pecking order in the CSR dept.
Anyway, I delved into the TPG portion of it and how, in the top 3 TPG's, collectors (most) understand it is XX grade, and within an hour they'll know if they like 'the look'...a couple days more if it passes the 'look test'. In other words, if the item is graded by an ebay approved TPG, though grading CAN be subjective, there are PCGS coins can trade sight unseen, as I'm sure those graded ATS can be (don't quote me as saying NGC/PCGS coins trade sight unseen...I'm not, don't know for a fact, but know they have in the past...especially not now with green and gold beans). ANYWAY (again), the buyer for that specific item SHOULD know WELL within 14 days (it SHOULD be less than that...you always know from that initial feeling as you take it out of the shipping package, how you are going to feel about it...don't like it upon opening it?? You KNOW you aren't going to like it the next day...or next...or....you know it's going back if you don't at least 'really like it' at first sight. The issue of 180 days being enough time to submit a coin for grading....and if that coin has 'should be a lock upgrade' in the listing, if that coin stays the same grade, it WILL be abused for that...a few more things (tried to be explicit as possible, and drop hints until I knew 'she was 'smellin' what the Rock was cookin''...gotta love talking to ebay in the States)...then, there was a lull...that's when she interrupted me....(we had a great chat...we talked for a good 45 mins, or so) .
As I was politely driving this one, huge issue, using examples...so that at least TPG coins should have nowhere NEAR a 180 day return privilege....she STOPPED me RIGHT there....her interjection was brief....."If that 180 day return is disconcerting to you, enough for you to consider stopping selling activities, just keep in mind it is only for those items sold between Nov 18th 2014 and Dec 31, 2014 (she gave months/day #'s, not year, so I asked 'is that 2014?'...I asked all kinds of questions so I would get the straight skinny on it, as I was under the impression it was a permanent move. It's simply for the holiday.
Oh, just a little FYI for allayuz.... ebay believes the category where sellers will get abused (her word) most is the clothing category (they are giving it up that this category). This category WILL have the most SNAD files claimed during the holiday season...3 or 4 years in a row...and most claims will be won by the buyer. Though, buyer returning item is required in up to 90% of the claims, which I found interesting...I wouldn't have guessed that category. Hope you found that tidbit interesting!
So, that's my story...Again, I'm not quite sure if this 'revelation' has been known for a bit/not at all, nor if it has or has not been discussed. If it's last weeks news, has been known or discussed, I really apologize for clogging the thread with useless drivel (though I'm not usually 'out there' as I may seem to be here (I hurt my brain trying to remember the specifics of the call, and it took awhile to put the thought in chronological order)....or if it hasn't been discussed, I hope it helps, though I have a gut feeling I just wasted 20 minutes of my life that I can't get back by spewing useless facts of my interaction with a human at ebay, wasted that time talking about my new store and be all 'happy happy' now that I have a store, my first stepping stone to conquering the world!!! Or, needlessly spewing, last weeks news...discussed and already forgotten about.
But, the '180 day period for returns'....only good for items purchased by Dec 31, 2014, not permanent, and the calendar starts running on Jan 1st. Now, we all know that what one ebay CSR says is fact, another might not know what the hell the other CSR rep is talking about...but, like I said, she knew the gig, and wasn't reading from no stinkin' script, like a lot do...So, again, I apologize if this has already been discussed (perhaps I should have taken the time to read all the posts???).
Comments
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<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was
straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments
from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to
crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder". >>
""
Not at all. The 'buyer' needs nothing but claim SNAD and the seller is obligated to repay - and you may not get the item back (see below). When silver dropped by $15 in April and May of a couple of years ago, I had to accept about 20 returns for SNAD that were a month to 6 weeks old sales. I'm getting returns now because of a 10% drop in silver.
This is singularly the most important clause on that page:
Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability.[i/]"
So if I make a SNAD claim that the coin is not as described by the seller and verified by the top TPG, that the coin is now shown to be damaged and the toning to be counterfeit, because of this ruined etc ..... By doing this through PayPal and having them dispute it as they make the decision it is feasible that the case could be found in my favor. Another way would be to simply switch out the coin and through PayPal the seller would be left on the hook at 5.5 months as pics are not even needed . I state again that what the listing states does not matter as you are making a PayPal claim. Buy a certified high dollar CC Morgan and buy a copy on the bay and switch them out and send to TPG to get it certified as a counterfeit and now you have a real one for free! I hope PayPal is reading this thread as many ways have been shown to possibly manipulate the limited definitions of policy put in place.
<< <i>Some one needs to do a Class auction on them. How E-Bay put me out of business..... and i can only use Paypal for payment that E-Bay own's. Maybe we can start a new way to pay.
Sellers are not obligated accept PayPal.
<< <i>I still believe that 95% of the buyers on ebay are honest. What paypal is doing is similar to the chargeback policy of credit cards. I have been lucky I guess. I never had a chargeback placed on any of my items that I have sold. Some as high as $5K. >>
<< <i>Can we option to only accept credit cards or personal checks as payment on ebay? >>
If you are a for-real merchant with a merchant credit card processing account you can have buyers click through to your processor's site for accepting payment in the same way that most independent web sites work. THAT is feepay's requirement - to accept online payments.
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<< <i>I still believe that 95% of the buyers on ebay are honest. What paypal is doing is similar to the chargeback policy of credit cards. I have been lucky I guess. I never had a chargeback placed on any of my items that I have sold. Some as high as $5K. >>
Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law.
<< <i>Ridiculous. >>
Worth repeating!
<< <i>So I have a PayPal debit card that they are pushing on me to activate so I can use it to shop anywhere a debit card is taken. Using that card would turn any transaction into a PayPal transaction. Thus I purchase $20,000.00 worth of raw high end Buffalo nickels from my local coin shop. 4 months down the line I contact PayPal and claim they are counterfeit and place a SNAD claim who determines they are counterfeit (they will be as I will have counterfeits on the cheap at ali to replace the real coins)and who refunds my money as the counterfeits are also destroyed? >>
How does PP determine that the counterfeits are actually destroyed? Or do they just take your word for it?
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed?
There are a lot of variables in which this change could be used to the benefit of those with very loose morals. >>
Good luck getting a nice 1883-S [assume it is ms] for $500.
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<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return. >>
Didn't read the thread. Was there a disclaimer in the listing that opening the box finalized the sale? >>
Don't remember.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>What would be fair is if sellers can re-claim their wares for 180 days. Let's be fair. >>
If you want the item back, should PP pull the funds out of the buyer's account until it is returned?
Can you claim the item was damaged and therefore worth less than it was before?
<< <i>Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law. >>
And precisely what points are different? I can not imagine PP putting policies out there that conflict with Federal Law. PP is a pretty big corporation and they have plenty of lawyers on staff. I would like to see the precise discrepancy and where you found the Federal Law that PP policies conflict with.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
If you buy from me on EBAY through Pay Pal, or at my website , I WILL GIVE YOU 1 year to return it. (but you have to leave me in your will)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"United States antitrust law is a collection of federal and state government laws, which regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers. The main statutes are the Sherman Act 1890, the Clayton Act 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations which could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power."
Mandatory 6-month return policy is restraint of trade?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
As for restraint of trade, I'm not a lawyer, but as long as they treat everyone fairly and equitably, they can do what ever they'd like. You are not obligated to use Paypal.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>Federal statues trump PP's policies, and the new PP policies are not in tune at this point with the law. >>
And precisely what points are different? I can not imagine PP putting policies out there that conflict with Federal Law. PP is a pretty big corporation and they have plenty of lawyers on staff. I would like to see the precise discrepancy and where you found the Federal Law that PP policies conflict with. >>
I guess you're too lazy to check for yourself? It can be found on dozens, if not hundreds of web sites, including govt sites.
Federal statutes require the buyer to attempt work out any problems with a seller before making any claim to the card issuer / processor. PP has inserted itself into the process without any comment on procedures. An actual reversal (charge back) is a black mark on the merchant. A couple too many and that business will be barred by the industry from processing any credit card transactions. I know of businesses that have closed because of too many reversals and their inability to then accept cc purchases. The failure of PP to comment on instituting procedures which give merchants an equal footing & fighting chance could doom that merchant's retail bizness. PP has no business circumventing established protocols. While feepay can and does insert itself into transactions as sole arbiter, it does not follow that PP can do that especially to independent sites. I decide my best practices on my site with the informed blessing of my processor. Any merchant that buys into PP's practices does so at great risk to their business health.
Do you have any thoughts about what PayPal is trying to accomplish by allowing a customer to file a complaint 180 days after the sale? I have bought coins from ebay sellers and,on ripping open the package to see what I bought,can tell you within about a minute,every single time,whether I want to keep the coin or not.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
How is it possible to avoid PayPal if you're a "small potatoes" seller like me? You have sellers and you have buyers on ebay both of which are deserving of fair and equitable treatment.Is hanging a pita thing,the ability of the buyer to file a complaint up to 180 days after the sale has completed, over seller's head fair and equitable?
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Hamlet (1.4),Marcellus to Horatio
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You can get a credit card processor thru your bank. Easy to do. That way you can avoid paypal altogether, but then you fall under that processors rules. I think you'll find most processors rules pretty liberal when it comes to customers ability to chargeback, and not that different from Paypal. You'll also find they changes the rules all the time.
As for treating all parties fair and equitable, they are treating ALL sellers the same. You must differentiate between buyers and sellers.
For the record, I hate paypal and hate e-bay and hate all the changes. I'm just trying to point out that it just business. E-Bay and Paypal are trying to provide as much of a buyer friendly policy as they can so that they can attract more buyers.....yes the sellers pay the fees, but that's just like Wal-Mart or any other major store. That's their competition.
You have choices and you don't have to use e-bay or paypal.
Done with this thread as it's getting antagonistic, like too many threads on these forums.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>As for restraint of trade, I'm not a lawyer, but as long as they treat everyone fairly and equitably, they can do what ever they'd like. You are not obligated to use Paypal.
How is it possible to avoid PayPal if you're a "small potatoes" seller like me? You have sellers and you have buyers on ebay both of which are deserving of fair and equitable treatment.Is hanging a pita thing,the ability of the buyer to file a complaint up to 180 days after the sale has completed, over seller's head fair and equitable?
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Hamlet (1.4),Marcellus to Horatio >>
The funniest thing I ever experienced in business is another business trying to appease my customers more than me and then acting like I owe them something after I paid for "rental space". But I'm a simple minded business man. Service comes with a smile
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was
straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments
from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to
crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder". >>
That is my point! Using my logic you could file a SNAD on your purchase through PayPal and not ebay as the coin was sold at a different grade and the #1 coin grading service in the US stated it was not the correct grade as sold. This is very easy to see. Again this is why better language is needed pertaining to this change. Remember this is a PayPal regulation and not Ebay and as such you can go right around the Ebay regulations.It is PayPal that will be making the determination/decision regarding the outcome of a SNAD case.
<< <i>I am failing to see how this change makes things that much worse, if at all. I suspect that 99% of all SNAD claims are filed within 45 days anyway. >>
Well, I was going to say that's because you have nothing for sale as it says in your sig line, but I clicked it and maybe this is your alt user name?
If I sell 9 items for 60K to the same buyer and 5 months later that buyer has cash problems you can bet a snad claim would throw me for a wrinkle if I had to refund that 60K to finance some bozos stock losses...
<< <i>I guess Nov 17 I will be pulling all my ebay listings down, >>
Great idea.
The quote "If you don't like a product or service, and you want it to go away, take your business elsewhere".
If we all stop doing business with fleabay / Paypal, they will change their tune very fast.
<< <i>We had several 10 oz silver NGC hockeypucks returned as SNAD which we had to eat a $120 to $180 loss (each one) when silver made some sudden drops in 2011. We even took VIDEOS as we unpacked the returned items at the post office in witness of a postal employee, showing the serial number matched that of the listing. EVERY one of our protests were dismissed, and the money taken out our Paypal account. It's called effing criminal enterprise. >>
10 oz hockey pucks? No wonder they were returned as SNAD
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply.
<< <i>
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply. >>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim.
<< <i>We had several 10 oz silver NGC hockeypucks returned as SNAD which we had to eat a $120 to $180 loss (each one) when silver made some sudden drops in 2011. We even took VIDEOS as we unpacked the returned items at the post office in witness of a postal employee, showing the serial number matched that of the listing. EVERY one of our protests were dismissed, and the money taken out our Paypal account. It's called effing criminal enterprise. >>
They only made 5 oz. ones at the mint. How did you get 10 oz. ones?
Thinking it might be a good time be more of a buyer than seller, now.
There are 2 sides to the benefit. On the one side a buying account to screw sellers. On the other side, a selling account to screw buyers.
It's merely time for me to open another account for POWER BUYING to go with my POWER SELLING.
This is a lesson in "HOW to PowerScrew from both ends"
Excuse the sarcasm , it's just that my intelligence has been insulted enough, and I'm one of the dumb ones.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Add to this, Apple Pay, and Alibaba's payment system and the EBAY stock holders are long term losers.
The vast majority of people are honest.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If this applies to bullion purchases, that is just plain wrong. Even a week is too long for those. Selling bullion with the stipulation that buyers can return months later shifts all of the risk to the seller with limited benefits. >>
It does not apply to bullion, if it is listed correctly in the coin - bullion category. However, if your bullion is listed in the coin category, it does apply. >>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim. >>
Really?....I beg to differ. I've had 2 SNAD claims on bullion silver bars produced by a reputable dealer, ( RCM 100 oz bars) sold after the run up in 2011. Clearly listed with no returns and pictures of the bar up for auction which started at $.99, along with a highlighted & underlined statement: "before placing a bid, due to the volatility of the PM market returns are not possible." eBay cited in my favor and dismissed the claim. Apparent case of buyers remorse, price of silver was falling at the time. Both SNAD claims were similar in scope.
Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not
worth it
<< <i>These policies are exactly why I stopped selling on eBay in 2011.
Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not
worth it >>
and do what? sell on Craigslist?,low ball dealers? Amazon?
eBay, is not perfect and even with all it's "alleged faults," it has the largest audience for your coins. I've been buying and selling on eBay for 14 years, without any Major issues. Clear pictures, honest write-ups and descriptions, promptly mailing the coins in a quality mailer (not some homemade #10 envelope). Using eBay's parameters to block problem buyers. Keep your own "blocked buyers list" up to date. Don't get involved in a pi-sing match with a disgruntled customer, just refund their money block them and move on.
<< <i>
<< <i>These policies are exactly why I stopped selling on eBay in 2011.
Do yourself a favor, just close your selling account, the aggravation is not
worth it >>
and do what? sell on Craigslist?,low ball dealers? Amazon?
eBay, is not perfect and even with all it's "alleged faults," it has the largest audience for your coins. I've been buying and selling on eBay for 14 years, without any Major issues. Clear pictures, honest write-ups and descriptions, promptly mailing the coins in a quality mailer (not some homemade #10 envelope). Using eBay's parameters to block problem buyers. Keep your own "blocked buyers list" up to date. Don't get involved in a pi-sing match with a disgruntled customer, just refund their money block them and move on. >>
Same here. Bought and sold hundreds and hundreds of coins, had three or four returned and some silver dimes lost in the mail, otherwise most are honest and the transactions solid. A-holes are promptly blocked.
I would have to give up the hobby if not for ebay. Local Dealers pay maybe 60% of what Ebay can command. Local dealers do not have the breadth of coins that Ebay has. Ebay has the most eyes and buyers period. Most coins on ebay are now fixed price (few true auction) and overpriced. That is what makes Ebay really suck IMO.
Tyler
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
<< <i>This new PayPal policy is definitely a concern. I can only imagine PayPal's transactions decreasing as a result of this change.
- Ian >>
The presentation of their card to a merchant will scream "scammer" or "serial returner".
<< <i>
<< <i>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim. >>
Really?....I beg to differ. I've had 2 SNAD claims on bullion silver bars ... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Being listed under bullion does not protect a seller from a SNAD claim. >>
Really?....I beg to differ. I've had 2 SNAD claims on bullion silver bars ... >>
And who do you use in selling your items? Some eBay critiques have only themselves to blame for their bad experience. Are you one of them?
<< <i>This new PayPal policy is definitely a concern. I can only imagine PayPal's transactions decreasing as a result of this change.
- Ian >>
What I would like to know, which "brain dead" exec. came up with that idea.
<< <i>
<< <i>This new PayPal policy is definitely a concern. I can only imagine PayPal's transactions decreasing as a result of this change.
- Ian >>
What I would like to know, which "brain dead" exec. came up with that idea. >>
Several people have accused me of coming up with all the crazy eBay/PayPal policies changes in the last few years, since ultimately I benefit from them. :-)
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
The more I think about it I don't think I ever had a SNAD claim, Had a few returns but those were not for SNAD.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I received a call from ebay, about dinner time yesterday....now, for starters, she was calling from the states (I asked), and, well, let's just say there was no communication problem/issues which prevented us from conversing about ANY topic, and I'll leave it at that...
The reason for the call was to try to sell me an ebay store, as, obviously, with a quick glance, they could see I'm not. But, was advised that my sales are such that the added discounts I'd receive from having a store, I just can't really ignore the fact I'd actually benefit from them, enough to make a difference.
After making her case showing I would benefit from a store, she asked me to voice any issues/questions I might have in order to fully consider buying a store, and we'd talk about. I told her there IS, in fact, a HUGE issue that might not just affect my decision to buy a store, but it IS making me consider (I did say 'a bunch' are in this very same dilemma) whether I want to continue selling on ebay AT ALL (I HAD to 'matter of factly' mention 'an auction company that can easily take on eBay's coin category). She then asked me to discuss it, and possibly she might be able to work in a few extra % points, though there would be extra criteria to meet (she was tossing me a bone, but I admire her going that few extra yards (it is SO easy to get things accomplished when there is absolutely NO communication gap)..she sounded like she was higher up in the pecking order in the CSR dept.
Anyway, I delved into the TPG portion of it and how, in the top 3 TPG's, collectors (most) understand it is XX grade, and within an hour they'll know if they like 'the look'...a couple days more if it passes the 'look test'. In other words, if the item is graded by an ebay approved TPG, though grading CAN be subjective, there are PCGS coins can trade sight unseen, as I'm sure those graded ATS can be (don't quote me as saying NGC/PCGS coins trade sight unseen...I'm not, don't know for a fact, but know they have in the past...especially not now with green and gold beans). ANYWAY (again), the buyer for that specific item SHOULD know WELL within 14 days (it SHOULD be less than that...you always know from that initial feeling as you take it out of the shipping package, how you are going to feel about it...don't like it upon opening it?? You KNOW you aren't going to like it the next day...or next...or....you know it's going back if you don't at least 'really like it' at first sight. The issue of 180 days being enough time to submit a coin for grading....and if that coin has 'should be a lock upgrade' in the listing, if that coin stays the same grade, it WILL be abused for that...a few more things (tried to be explicit as possible, and drop hints until I knew 'she was 'smellin' what the Rock was cookin''...gotta love talking to ebay in the States)...then, there was a lull...that's when she interrupted me....(we had a great chat...we talked for a good 45 mins, or so) .
As I was politely driving this one, huge issue, using examples...so that at least TPG coins should have nowhere NEAR a 180 day return privilege....she STOPPED me RIGHT there....her interjection was brief....."If that 180 day return is disconcerting to you, enough for you to consider stopping selling activities, just keep in mind it is only for those items sold between Nov 18th 2014 and Dec 31, 2014 (she gave months/day #'s, not year, so I asked 'is that 2014?'...I asked all kinds of questions so I would get the straight skinny on it, as I was under the impression it was a permanent move. It's simply for the holiday.
Oh, just a little FYI for allayuz.... ebay believes the category where sellers will get abused (her word) most is the clothing category (they are giving it up that this category). This category WILL have the most SNAD files claimed during the holiday season...3 or 4 years in a row...and most claims will be won by the buyer. Though, buyer returning item is required in up to 90% of the claims, which I found interesting...I wouldn't have guessed that category. Hope you found that tidbit interesting!
So, that's my story...Again, I'm not quite sure if this 'revelation' has been known for a bit/not at all, nor if it has or has not been discussed. If it's last weeks news, has been known or discussed, I really apologize for clogging the thread with useless drivel (though I'm not usually 'out there' as I may seem to be here (I hurt my brain trying to remember the specifics of the call, and it took awhile to put the thought in chronological order)....or if it hasn't been discussed, I hope it helps, though I have a gut feeling I just wasted 20 minutes of my life that I can't get back by spewing useless facts of my interaction with a human at ebay, wasted that time talking about my new store and be all 'happy happy' now that I have a store, my first stepping stone to conquering the world!!! Or, needlessly spewing, last weeks news...discussed and already forgotten about.
But, the '180 day period for returns'....only good for items purchased by Dec 31, 2014, not permanent, and the calendar starts running on Jan 1st. Now, we all know that what one ebay CSR says is fact, another might not know what the hell the other CSR rep is talking about...but, like I said, she knew the gig, and wasn't reading from no stinkin' script, like a lot do...So, again, I apologize if this has already been discussed (perhaps I should have taken the time to read all the posts???).