<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Where are those Great Collections forms I had?
Is this eBay or PayPal? GC takes PayPal also. >>
This is a PayPal policy, not an eBay Policy, so yes, GC transactions as well as BST transactions would be affected. >>
Well this is interesting. Heritage also takes Paypal. From a consignor perspective, would the auction-houses have to withhold payment for 6 months until all the dust settles?? >>
The collector didn't take PP, Heritage did. Can a well heeled/large consignor dictate the terms of payment that Heritage can accept for their coins?
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit. >>
And a buyer can be very happy with his new coin and not leave any feedback and then find out a few months later that silver dropped far enough that he can say : " This coin didn't do what it was supposed to do for me "
<< <i>"and the last 2 weeks of March would be included under the new dispute window."
Coinpictures, the new policy will NOT be retroactive to transactions completed BEFORE November 17. >>
That's NOT what I was saying! I know that none of this is retroactive.
I was confirming the length of USPS data retention for tracking information. Based on today's date, six month's of tracking data are not available online. My point was that if USPS only retains 5.5 months of data going forward, sellers will automatically lose PayPal nonreceipt claims for USPS shipped merchandise filed in the last 2 weeks of the 6-month dispute window.
I'm confident that most merchants who become familiar with this draconian policy change will switch to merchant processing services of credit cards, even at a higher up front cost basis than PayPig. Unless of course most major credit card companies already allow for a 6 month window to claim a chargeback on similar grounds.
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit. >>
And a buyer can be very happy with his new coin and not leave any feedback and then find out a few months later that silver dropped far enough that he can say : " This coin didn't do what it was supposed to do for me " >>
Here's the one I got after the buyer left positive feedback on a $900 dollar sale. His initial feedback was that it was a fine coin indeed! which later changed to: "I'm sorry to say that this coin doesn't do much for me and I'd like to return it for a refund. Please let me know how to proceed."
Now I should mention, after he completed his sale and left positive feedback, I felt comfortable listing up a similar coin, albeit with an area near the date which had very dark toning which in my opinion held it back for eye appeal.
I started that one fairly cheap and it ended approx 55% lower than the one that sold first...Yup, the following morning I received the above message through Ebay. Looking at this buyers feedback left for others I kinda had a feeling he was a game player, almost to the point of being a psycho.
That stinks CASMAN. I'm a believer in owning up to your "contractual agreement" in the auction market…. but who am i ? Nobody. See every coin is "THE SAME" on ebay. It's just a product and there are millions like it…. And if you don't believe us (their view) , see how alibaba does it.
There's a silver lining here. With a credit card, a buyer can file a chargeback well beyond the 180 day limit (I know, since I just had that happen on a year-old sale). It's damn near impossible to win a chargeback, and if you so much as attempt to fight it, you get hit with a $20 fee. The credit card company makes the decision based on what PayPal tells them, so you have little input and no back-and-forth. While the potential for more disputes is problematic, for the lesser of two evils, I'd prefer them to stay within PayPal so I can at least directly talk to someone who can take action. It might not help, but it's at least better than a chargeback.
So I have a PayPal debit card that they are pushing on me to activate so I can use it to shop anywhere a debit card is taken. Using that card would turn any transaction into a PayPal transaction. Thus I purchase $20,000.00 worth of raw high end Buffalo nickels from my local coin shop. 4 months down the line I contact PayPal and claim they are counterfeit and place a SNAD claim who determines they are counterfeit (they will be as I will have counterfeits on the cheap at ali to replace the real coins)and who refunds my money as the counterfeits are also destroyed?
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
In my case it was! I purchased a coin and accidently left positive feedback for a seller before I examined the coin. Turned out it was bent! Ebay summarily ruled against me because I had already left positive feedback! And yes...I asked if that was why they ruled in the seller's favor!
<< <i>I'm confident that most merchants who become familiar with this draconian policy change will switch to merchant processing services of credit cards, even at a higher up front cost basis than PayPig. Unless of course most major credit card companies already allow for a 6 month window to claim a chargeback on similar grounds. >>
I believe this is why paypal is doing this as many Credit Cards do have a 6 month charge back window.
<< <i>In my case it was! I purchased a coin and accidently left positive feedback for a seller before I examined the coin. Turned out it was bent! Ebay summarily ruled against me because I had already left positive feedback! And yes...I asked if that was why they ruled in the seller's favor! >>
Not always the case. I have a case of a $80 coin that was paid for via paypal, delivered and customer left glowing feedback. 3 months later they filed a claim with their credit card company that the charge was not authorized. They do not answer the phone, respond to e-mail or respond to E-Bay messages. Not sure the outcome, but there was no summary ruling by Paypal, so regardless of feedback, it's not cut and dry.
So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed?
There are a lot of variables in which this change could be used to the benefit of those with very loose morals.
<< <i>Doesn't this also tie in with eBay making it more difficult to have counterfeits pulled? If the community chasing bad sellers is losing power, it may take longer for people to figure out they bought a counterfeit. >>
Yeah, well......they must be figuring another 4 1/2 months will help when that dawns on someone.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I suggest you make PDFs of all your ebay listings/usps tracking info before they disappear. Easy to do. There are plenty of free programs that allow you to do this on the web.
<< <i>I guess Nov 17 I will be pulling all my ebay listings down, >>
I guess I need to get selling then since I think this "new policy" is just stupid.
It reminds me of the folks I've run into from time to time that buy expensive clothing, wear it to the occasion for which they purchased it, then return it.
I once knew a guy that played "group" online racing games. While on business travel, a race date arrived. He had no electronic steering wheel, so he went to Best Buy, bought a wheel, hooked it up, used it, then returned it the next day. Clever no?
I can see folks buying silver items based upon the price of silver. When silver tanks, here come the items back to the sellers with a SNAD.
You will never, ever, be able to say that either silver is rising or gold is rising as it might just be going up, up, up, but if it tanks in 5 1/2 months, expect a dispute to be filed.
This will SUCK on soooo many different levels and I'd kinda like some professional numismatists to offer some advice to PayPal and eBay based upon their professional experience.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Tomorrow everything I can list is going up, I sell odds and ends on ebey to make extra money for purchasing coins and for the family but will have to see how this all plays out. Wonder what the sold for parts only no retun listings are going to do with this now????
I still believe that 95% of the buyers on ebay are honest. What paypal is doing is similar to the chargeback policy of credit cards. I have been lucky I guess. I never had a chargeback placed on any of my items that I have sold. Some as high as $5K.
<< <i>How about just take advantage of the loop hole in the new SNAD policy?
Do not describe the item.
Just post a pic and state the obvious factual attributes that can't be disputed - such as date, denom, tpg grade, ect.
If you don't describe it, what will the buyer use as their grounds for filing a SNAD? >>
Doesn't work that easily. The box for a buyer to click on SNAD will always be there. They do not need to be specific, just click the box that E-Bay encourages buyers to use, vs contacting the seller first. E-Bay likes this as it's an automatic strike against a seller. It's helps them to stop the 20% top seller discount...if you fall below a certain % acceptable transactions, you loose the discount.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you crack the coin out of a third party slab (regardless of whether it is that of approved PCGS or NGC), it is no longer in the same condition it was sold, thus making it non-returnable or eligible for SNAD.
<< <i>How about just take advantage of the loop hole in the new SNAD policy?
Do not describe the item.
Just post a pic and state the obvious factual attributes that can't be disputed - such as date, denom, tpg grade, ect.
If you don't describe it, what will the buyer use as their grounds for filing a SNAD? >>
Doesn't work that easily. The box for a buyer to click on SNAD will always be there. They do not need to be specific, just click the box that E-Bay encourages buyers to use, vs contacting the seller first. E-Bay likes this as it's an automatic strike against a seller. It's helps them to stop the 20% top seller discount...if you fall below a certain % acceptable transactions, you loose the discount. >>
They can click the box, but that doesn't mean they will win the dispute. The seller can escalate the dispute, have it reviewed and show that the auction listing was factual. If the seller wins the argument, no strike against his seller status occurs.
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box. The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used. The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic. The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing. You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the seller's item listing description. Here are some examples:
The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller. The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it. The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations. The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.
It's a lot easier for a buyer to win a SNAD than a seller. Even if you put nothing in the description, the buyer could easily claim minor chip, minor scratch. Unless you've taken perfect care of a slab, virtually every slab has an issue. Guarantee E-Bay would side with a buyer if they made that type of claim, even if it were not true.
I wish that was not the case, as I'm a seller, but sellers have the odds stacked against them. Worst case on a SNAD like that, you get the item back and pay shipping both ways. You just hoe the market hasn't collapsed since you sold it.
SleazeBay is about to be transformed into the world's most comprehensive approval sale venue. Until the tide of sellers goes out. And never comes back in again.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you crack the coin out of a third party slab (regardless of whether it is that of approved PCGS or NGC), it is no longer in the same condition it was sold, thus making it non-returnable or eligible for SNAD. >>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return.
<< <i>I stopped selling on eBay several years ago due to changing policies and change-a-minute fee structures. Nothing I have seen since makes me want to go back even slightly.
This latest change goes beyond any absurdity that I could possibly have imagined... even for eBay. >>
Exactly my situation and thoughts. >>
that make that three of us...
I want to know why, if feebay revenues come from sellers 9 listing fees and final value fees) , why do they "back" the buyer's? this does not compute.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return. >>
Didn't read the thread. Was there a disclaimer in the listing that opening the box finalized the sale?
<< <i>This extension may be tying into the turn around times for coin grading.........if someone hasn't already posted. >>
If I am not mistaken this sweeping change applies to all items that are sold and paid for by the buyer through Paypal, not just coins, and not just on eBay. Although we are focused on coins and eBay, obviously, I highly doubt this change in policy had anything to do with something so specific as coin grading turnaround times or coin counterfeits. With respect, you and a few previous posters need to broaden your focus. I am not involved in the gemstone industry, namebrand clothing, namebrand purses/accessories, but I can imagine this is affecting them just as much if not more than it is affecting us. Yes, many coins are sold on eBay, but in the grand scheme of things coin sales represent 1 to 5% of all eBay sales? I'm thinking accessories, jewelry, other collectibles, and clothing account for even more and the condition of said accessories can greatly increase or decrease in value, as in coins, leaving that SNAD window open as people are wont to continually argue over condition.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
Every time eBay enacts another by-law they become less of a venue for selling items and more of an auction house. I wonder if they have an eye of becoming solely an auction house two or five years down the line. Think about it. It would make sense since they continually discourage sellers more and more from going it individually. Eventually we may all have to send what we want to sell on eBay to San Jose on consignment, and they will do the rest of the work. Given the context of what I've witnessed over the past several years, this may be their end game plan. That makes a lot of sense to me, actually. Thoughts?
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
<< <i>This extension may be tying into the turn around times for coin grading.........if someone hasn't already posted. >>
If I am not mistaken this sweeping change applies to all items that are sold and paid for by the buyer through Paypal, not just coins, and not just on eBay. Although we are focused on coins and eBay, obviously, I highly doubt this change in policy had anything to do with something so specific as coin grading turnaround times or coin counterfeits. With respect, you and a few previous posters need to broaden your focus. I am not involved in the gemstone industry, namebrand clothing, namebrand purses/accessories, but I can imagine this is affecting them just as much if not more than it is affecting us. Yes, many coins are sold on eBay, but in the grand scheme of things coin sales represent 1 to 5% of all eBay sales? I'm thinking accessories, jewelry, other collectibles, and clothing account for even more and the condition of said accessories can greatly increase or decrease in value, as in coins, leaving that SNAD window open as people are wont to continually argue over condition. >>
I was alluding to the time it takes to have a coin graded, is that time within 45 days of the present paypal policy. If the coin is not genuine.........6 months would cover all submissions, in plenty of time.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Every time eBay enacts another by-law they become less of a venue for selling items and more of an auction house. I wonder if they have an eye of becoming solely an auction house two or five years down the line. Think about it. It would make sense since they continually discourage sellers more and more from going it individually. Eventually we may all have to send what we want to sell on eBay to San Jose on consignment, and they will do the rest of the work.{RLY? SRS?} Given the context of what I've witnessed over the past several years, this may be their end game plan. That makes a lot of sense to me, actually. Thoughts? >>
Thought. From the sublime to the ridiculous. SleazeBay couldn't hire enough illegal aliens from Mexico, Central America, South America and Asia at minimum wage to process the volume of product that currently is in the hands of private members. Your vision makes no sense to me whatsoever. Ship a car, or a farm tractor or industrial equipment to San Jose? NOT.
"If a buyer files a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim for an item they purchased from you, you will generally be required to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees. Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability" that puts my mind at ease. does anyone at paypal have the expertise to determine what is/isn't counterfeit ? and they keep the fees. sounds plenty fair to me
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural. Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder".
Some one needs to do a Class auction on them. How E-Bay put me out of business..... and i can only use Paypal for payment that E-Bay own's. Maybe we can start a new way to pay.
Comments
TwoSides2aCon ( a pseudo-typo)
<< <i>
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Where are those Great Collections forms I had?
Is this eBay or PayPal? GC takes PayPal also. >>
This is a PayPal policy, not an eBay Policy, so yes, GC transactions as well as BST transactions would be affected. >>
Well this is interesting. Heritage also takes Paypal. From a consignor perspective, would the auction-houses have to withhold payment for 6 months until all the dust settles?? >>
The collector didn't take PP, Heritage did. Can a well heeled/large consignor dictate the terms of payment that Heritage can accept for their coins?
Coinpictures, the new policy will NOT be retroactive to transactions completed BEFORE November 17.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit. >>
And a buyer can be very happy with his new coin and not leave any feedback and then find out a few months later that silver dropped far enough that he can say : " This coin didn't do what it was supposed to do for me "
<< <i>"and the last 2 weeks of March would be included under the new dispute window."
Coinpictures, the new policy will NOT be retroactive to transactions completed BEFORE November 17.
That's NOT what I was saying! I know that none of this is retroactive.
I was confirming the length of USPS data retention for tracking information. Based on today's date, six month's of tracking data are not available online. My point was that if USPS only retains 5.5 months of data going forward, sellers will automatically lose PayPal nonreceipt claims for USPS shipped merchandise filed in the last 2 weeks of the 6-month dispute window.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
A coin buyer can be very happy with his new coin and leave positive feedback and then find out a few months later that it's a counterfeit. >>
And a buyer can be very happy with his new coin and not leave any feedback and then find out a few months later that silver dropped far enough that he can say : " This coin didn't do what it was supposed to do for me "
Here's the one I got after the buyer left positive feedback on a $900 dollar sale. His initial feedback was that it was a fine coin indeed! which later changed to: "I'm sorry to say that this coin doesn't do much for me and I'd like to return it for a refund. Please let me know how to proceed."
Now I should mention, after he completed his sale and left positive feedback, I felt comfortable listing up a similar coin, albeit with an area near the date which had very dark toning which in my opinion held it back for eye appeal.
I started that one fairly cheap and it ended approx 55% lower than the one that sold first...Yup, the following morning I received the above message through Ebay. Looking at this buyers feedback left for others I kinda had a feeling he was a game player, almost to the point of being a psycho.
See every coin is "THE SAME" on ebay. It's just a product and there are millions like it…. And if you don't believe us (their view) , see how alibaba does it.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>
<< <i>If a buyer leaves positive feedback, then 3 months later decides to return the item, can he? >>
Yes. Feedback is not considered binding. >>
In my case it was! I purchased a coin and accidently left positive feedback for a seller before I examined the coin. Turned out it was bent! Ebay summarily ruled against me because I had already left positive feedback! And yes...I asked if that was why they ruled in the seller's favor!
<< <i>I'm confident that most merchants who become familiar with this draconian policy change will switch to merchant processing services of credit cards, even at a higher up front cost basis than PayPig. Unless of course most major credit card companies already allow for a 6 month window to claim a chargeback on similar grounds.
I believe this is why paypal is doing this as many Credit Cards do have a 6 month charge back window.
<< <i>In my case it was! I purchased a coin and accidently left positive feedback for a seller before I examined the coin. Turned out it was bent! Ebay summarily ruled against me because I had already left positive feedback! And yes...I asked if that was why they ruled in the seller's favor! >>
Not always the case. I have a case of a $80 coin that was paid for via paypal, delivered and customer left glowing feedback. 3 months later they filed a claim with their credit card company that the charge was not authorized. They do not answer the phone, respond to e-mail or respond to E-Bay messages. Not sure the outcome, but there was no summary ruling by Paypal, so regardless of feedback, it's not cut and dry.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
There are a lot of variables in which this change could be used to the benefit of those with very loose morals.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
<< <i>Doesn't this also tie in with eBay making it more difficult to have counterfeits pulled? If the community chasing bad sellers is losing power, it may take longer for people to figure out they bought a counterfeit. >>
Yeah, well......they must be figuring another 4 1/2 months will help when that dawns on someone.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Box of 20
<< <i>I guess Nov 17 I will be pulling all my ebay listings down, >>
I guess I need to get selling then since I think this "new policy" is just stupid.
It reminds me of the folks I've run into from time to time that buy expensive clothing, wear it to the occasion for which they purchased it, then return it.
I once knew a guy that played "group" online racing games. While on business travel, a race date arrived. He had no electronic steering wheel, so he went to Best Buy, bought a wheel, hooked it up, used it, then returned it the next day. Clever no?
I can see folks buying silver items based upon the price of silver. When silver tanks, here come the items back to the sellers with a SNAD.
You will never, ever, be able to say that either silver is rising or gold is rising as it might just be going up, up, up, but if it tanks in 5 1/2 months, expect a dispute to be filed.
This will SUCK on soooo many different levels and I'd kinda like some professional numismatists to offer some advice to PayPal and eBay based upon their professional experience.
The name is LEE!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Box of 20
Do not describe the item.
Just post a pic and state the obvious factual attributes that can't be disputed - such as date, denom, tpg grade, ect.
If you don't describe it, what will the buyer use as their grounds for filing a SNAD?
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
<< <i>How about just take advantage of the loop hole in the new SNAD policy?
Do not describe the item.
Just post a pic and state the obvious factual attributes that can't be disputed - such as date, denom, tpg grade, ect.
If you don't describe it, what will the buyer use as their grounds for filing a SNAD? >>
Doesn't work that easily. The box for a buyer to click on SNAD will always be there. They do not need to be specific, just click the box that E-Bay encourages buyers to use, vs contacting the seller first. E-Bay likes this as it's an automatic strike against a seller. It's helps them to stop the 20% top seller discount...if you fall below a certain % acceptable transactions, you loose the discount.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
I sell under the name "Exclusively".
This is cheaper than Kool Aid. This is spam.
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you crack the coin out of a third party slab (regardless of whether it is that of approved PCGS or NGC), it is no longer in the same condition it was sold, thus making it non-returnable or eligible for SNAD.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>How about just take advantage of the loop hole in the new SNAD policy?
Do not describe the item.
Just post a pic and state the obvious factual attributes that can't be disputed - such as date, denom, tpg grade, ect.
If you don't describe it, what will the buyer use as their grounds for filing a SNAD? >>
Doesn't work that easily. The box for a buyer to click on SNAD will always be there. They do not need to be specific, just click the box that E-Bay encourages buyers to use, vs contacting the seller first. E-Bay likes this as it's an automatic strike against a seller. It's helps them to stop the 20% top seller discount...if you fall below a certain % acceptable transactions, you loose the discount. >>
They can click the box, but that doesn't mean they will win the dispute. The seller can escalate the dispute, have it reviewed and show that the auction listing was factual. If the seller wins the argument, no strike against his seller status occurs.
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the seller's item listing description. Here are some examples:
The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller.
The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
<< <i>Come November …. 13 years on eBay.
I sell under the name "Exclusively".
This is cheaper than Kool Aid. This is spam.
It's a lot easier for a buyer to win a SNAD than a seller. Even if you put nothing in the description, the buyer could easily claim minor chip, minor scratch. Unless you've taken perfect care of a slab, virtually every slab has an issue. Guarantee E-Bay would side with a buyer if they made that type of claim, even if it were not true.
I wish that was not the case, as I'm a seller, but sellers have the odds stacked against them. Worst case on a SNAD like that, you get the item back and pay shipping both ways. You just hoe the market hasn't collapsed since you sold it.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you crack the coin out of a third party slab (regardless of whether it is that of approved PCGS or NGC), it is no longer in the same condition it was sold, thus making it non-returnable or eligible for SNAD. >>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations.
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return.
<< <i>
<< <i>Come November …. 13 years on eBay.
I sell under the name "Exclusively".
This is cheaper than Kool Aid. This is spam.
You want my pay pal address ?
<< <i>
<< <i>I stopped selling on eBay several years ago due to changing policies and change-a-minute fee structures. Nothing I have seen since makes me want to go back even slightly.
This latest change goes beyond any absurdity that I could possibly have imagined... even for eBay. >>
Exactly my situation and thoughts. >>
that make that three of us...
I want to know why, if feebay revenues come from sellers 9 listing fees and final value fees) , why do they "back" the buyer's? this does not compute.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
What about the board member here who sold a mint sealed box of platinum coins on ebay. The buyer opened it, said one coin was damaged and wanted a refund. I believe ebay required him to accept the return. >>
Didn't read the thread. Was there a disclaimer in the listing that opening the box finalized the sale?
<< <i>This extension may be tying into the turn around times for coin grading.........if someone hasn't already posted. >>
If I am not mistaken this sweeping change applies to all items that are sold and paid for by the buyer through Paypal, not just coins, and not just on eBay. Although we are focused on coins and eBay, obviously, I highly doubt this change in policy had anything to do with something so specific as coin grading turnaround times or coin counterfeits. With respect, you and a few previous posters need to broaden your focus. I am not involved in the gemstone industry, namebrand clothing, namebrand purses/accessories, but I can imagine this is affecting them just as much if not more than it is affecting us. Yes, many coins are sold on eBay, but in the grand scheme of things coin sales represent 1 to 5% of all eBay sales? I'm thinking accessories, jewelry, other collectibles, and clothing account for even more and the condition of said accessories can greatly increase or decrease in value, as in coins, leaving that SNAD window open as people are wont to continually argue over condition.
<< <i>
<< <i>This extension may be tying into the turn around times for coin grading.........if someone hasn't already posted. >>
If I am not mistaken this sweeping change applies to all items that are sold and paid for by the buyer through Paypal, not just coins, and not just on eBay. Although we are focused on coins and eBay, obviously, I highly doubt this change in policy had anything to do with something so specific as coin grading turnaround times or coin counterfeits. With respect, you and a few previous posters need to broaden your focus. I am not involved in the gemstone industry, namebrand clothing, namebrand purses/accessories, but I can imagine this is affecting them just as much if not more than it is affecting us. Yes, many coins are sold on eBay, but in the grand scheme of things coin sales represent 1 to 5% of all eBay sales? I'm thinking accessories, jewelry, other collectibles, and clothing account for even more and the condition of said accessories can greatly increase or decrease in value, as in coins, leaving that SNAD window open as people are wont to continually argue over condition. >>
I was alluding to the time it takes to have a coin graded, is that time within 45 days of the present paypal policy. If the coin is not genuine.........6 months would cover all submissions, in plenty of time.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Every time eBay enacts another by-law they become less of a venue for selling items and more of an auction house. I wonder if they have an eye of becoming solely an auction house two or five years down the line. Think about it. It would make sense since they continually discourage sellers more and more from going it individually. Eventually we may all have to send what we want to sell on eBay to San Jose on consignment, and they will do the rest of the work.{RLY? SRS?} Given the context of what I've witnessed over the past several years, this may be their end game plan. That makes a lot of sense to me, actually. Thoughts? >>
Thought. From the sublime to the ridiculous. SleazeBay couldn't hire enough illegal aliens from Mexico, Central America, South America and Asia at minimum wage to process the volume of product that currently is in the hands of private members. Your vision makes no sense to me whatsoever. Ship a car, or a farm tractor or industrial equipment to San Jose? NOT.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So lets say I buy a very nice 1883-S Morgan Dollar that is textile toned in an ANACS holder with a purchase price of say $500.00. I then crack the coin and send it to PCGS an it gets bagged as AT. This means that the toning is counterfeit and the coin is not as described. Do I get reimbursed and keep the coin stating it has been destroyed? >>
It means no such thing. It means that in the opinion of PCGS at the current time, the toning is not natural.
Most professional sellers on eBay place verbiage in their listings stating that once a coin is cracked out, the sale is considered
final. To the best of my knowledge, eBay will respect such declarations. >>
Remember this is not ebay but PayPal and it was determined that the coin sold to me that was represented as NT was AT and so was counterfeit toning. No mention of cracking slabs or not cracking them is in the new PayPal lingo so by placing the claim directly with PayPal you circumvent the ebay rules. >>
Nonsense. Just because PCGS wouldn't slab it does not make the coin AT. The coin (as listed) was
straight-graded by ANACS and sold as such. No implicit guarantees were being made about judgments
from other grading services. Using your logic, I could buy an NGC coin and return it when it failed to
crossover to PCGS because it was "misrepresented at the grade on the NGC holder".
Hoard the keys.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870